One of my thoughts on eventing safety.......

georgiegirl

georgiegirl

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I havent had time to read the letter to BE yet but reading a book the other made me think a bit (I'm sure what Im about to say is completely obvious but something I havent really seen thrown into the equation)

Anyway.....basically it was by Andrew Nicholson on training young horses xc. His thought on the matter are that no horse should know the word stop and he gets his horses thinking they must get to the other side of the fence no matter what. Now....the vast majority of people are no where near as good at placing a horse to a fence as he is and so I think having a horse trained to have this attitude is a bad thing. In the old days training was very much borne in mind of having a horse with self preservation and to me that means that if you were really in the s**t your horse would have enough common sense to stop. Yes having horses stop is surely not what we want but, at the end of the day what is 20pens compared with a rotational fall caused by completely buggering up a fence?

Now I admit, Im not expert on this and no none of the rotational statistics etc but it was just a thought I and wondered what others thought about it?
 
i totally agree. i would rather have a "safety stop" if something has gone horribly wrong on the approach, than risk turning turtle.
For this reason, if i make a bad mistake on the way to a fence, or the horse skids, or anything else that would make taking off the wrong thing to do, i don't punish the horse for stopping. i'll give it a pat and a kind word, and represent at the fence.
however, if i'm sure i have presented the horse correctly and given it every chance to jump the fence, i expect it to make an effort to do so.
it used to be said that a good xc horse should never know how to stop, but i think that's rubbish. plenty of very good horses have had stops in the past, when they were less experienced, but that doesn't mean they'll do it when they are older, wiser, stronger, and enjoying themselves.
 
I train mine that stopping is not an option, however I don't molly coddle them over jumps either, I try my best to present the horse correctly then sit quiet - after all the horse has to do the jumping.

On a Tinks Pottinger course she told us to never stand off cross country fences - if you hit it you will flip, if you are going to get it wrong get under the fence.

I also wonder if the removal of roads and tracks and the steeple chase means that people aren't getting their horses as fit as they used to and we now have tired horses competing. The roads and tracks was great for warming the horse up well before cross country.
 
Tnavas - Surely though if you stand off the fence you give the horse more time to gets its knees out of the way of the fence- from a spectator POV those I have seen that miss and stand off tend to come flying/scrabbling over sideways if they hit the fence and riders get thrown clear, whereas the ones that chip in get buried are the ones that tend to do the horrible handstands by breasting the fence as no space to get front out the way before back legs propell you over.
 
Wasn't the accident last week the consequence of the horse chipping in an extra stride and not getting his legs out of the way? Can't remember where I read that.
 
I would always prefer to stand off. after all thats why course builders put scary stuff around the bottom of jumps to give an exagerated groundline to get the horse up in the air.
 
I have a horse that will not stop, will get to the other side every time, you would really have to do something very odd (as in present parallel to the fence) to have a stop. This could be a problem above pre-novice or on some fences where he hits it wrong and still says 'yes'. (in saying that, he is very very honest which is lovely)
Sisters horse has self preservation, he will stop if on a stupid stride/angle although he sometimes climbs over, imo he is less likely to have a fall but then again my lad would be quicker at picking up his legs, so maybe that's why he is more keen to do whatever it takes.
 
Quite a few on the rotational falls have been slow, deep ones where the horse either didn't get the front knee up or dithered on the take off enough to lose impulsion after the last exit. I think the "don't stand off" advice used to be more "one size fits all" when the vast majority of eventers used to have a long, long eye and when in doubt kicked for the long one. You used to see some corking falls from horses catching a toe on the back rail (I know, I had one
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) but they tended not to be fatal because both horse and rider were still travelling at speed and continued to roll forward on impact. Terrifying looking, painful, but not usually ending with a stationary rider being pursued by a gravity driven horse. That seems to be much less the case now. Perhaps the lack of steeplechase and the more accurate riding required now has change RIDERS more than it has changed horses??

On the "no stopping" front, I agree with it in principle and up to a point. But the point is valid that a horse that's thinking about what it's doing and wants to live another day *should* stop if it's really in trouble. To reference another recent thread, that's why top "amateur" horses are worth so much, because they will stop when the rider is really wrong yet continue to go when he/she is right. The problem is there are very few horses this forgiving, especially when the going gets tough.

To boil it down, if you want to live the horse *should* stop when it thinks it's in trouble. If you want to WIN, it shouldn't.

The problem is, if you want to fall into (sorry, no pun intended) the second category then you better be right pretty much every time. I think this is partly what I think a lot of people don't want to hear - you can't expect your horse to go like AN's, or Lucinda's, or Mark's or Oli's or whomever, or for the same rules to apply, unless you ride like those people too.
 
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The problem is, if you want to fall into (sorry, no pun intended) the second category then you better be right pretty much every time. I think this is partly what I think a lot of people don't want to hear - you can't expect your horse to go like AN's, or Lucinda's, or Mark's or Oli's or whomever, or for the same rules to apply, unless you ride like those people too.

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And possibly why the horses that these people sell for megabucks to amateurs are never heard of again in the top flight. Amateurs riding one XC round every fortnight are very rarely 'right' every time, to every fence, no matter how good they are.
 
Actually, the more I think about this, the more I think the theory about getting deeper being safer can't be right.

Racing falls can be horrific to watch but reality are rarely fatal (at least for the rider). Racehorses jump fast and flat, generally taking off far further from the highest point of the fence than eventers. If they fall, both horse and rider can tumble for some distance but usually not on exactly the same trajectory.

Really nasty eventing falls are usually fairly slow - the rider is not thrown clear and ends up under the horse. I would imagine these slow falls are more likley from the super-honest horse that doesn't stop when it has lost slightly too much momentum or got too deep to get over the fence.
 
Sm I agree with you 100%. Have you ever seen slow-mo pics of racehorses taking off outside the wings? From that point most eventers would get at least another stride in and be jumping a fence with a much less forgiving profile.

On a totally unrelated note I think I'm going jumping with you tomorrow. It'll be nice to see you again
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I have spoken to several people about Ians awful accident at belton, the concensus is that the fence was set on a poor distance.
2 and a half stides. If this truely turns out to be the reason that one of my friends has died, I for one want to see someone held to account.
As for the safety issue as a whole i think BE is coming up short. Maybe they don't want to be seen to have any 'brand' loyalty, we all know sponcers are vital.
If they have or find a product that will save a riders life that one manufacturer produces, does anyone think that they would make it mandatory as they should?
I belive that politics stop the safety issue ever being resolved fully.
 
eventing_chick, i didn't walk it but the first 2 parts of the fence were at an angle or could be curved... difficult to say it was an exact distance then, i think.
i agree about someone being held to account... but i think the hazard between13a and b was the biggest problem. just stupid and ridiculous to put such a hazard where it was.
BE has already come up short in the respect that you mention. they refused to back the Exo, and if they had, some of those no longer with us might still be here today.
i agree about your politics comment.
 
SM I agree with that too.When you think of how many racehorses fall and a jockey accepts that he will have many falls, but they rarely get squashed.

As they are going at speed, the jockey is usually thrown forwards.
 
regarding standing horses off fences, totally depends on the horse. i've done it lots of times with big-jumping sharp-in-front horses, and they loved it. i try not to do it now cos i know a bit better though... but if the option is "a good forward stride but a bit off it" or "take a good pull and bury it" i'd probably go for the former nearly every time...
(siggy pic of the grey is a good example of the former... that was seriously wide and plenty big enough and she was never going to touch it, even though i did see a forward one!)
 
I must say that I no longer have any faith in BE and their ability to make desisions concerning safety.
A death through a competitive event shold not be so readily accepted .
It should be a freak ocurance, not something that happens every couple of months.
I've voted with my feet on this.
 
eventing_chick, i TOTALLY agree. that's why i've done this letter and am determined to try to get as many names as possible on it, so that BE have to take notice i hope. fatalities are becoming a fairly regular occurrence. it is utterly tragic.
 
I think that the problem is; riding XC courses these days has forced riders to ride in a manufactured manner rather than a natural, forward, flowing manner. The techicality of XC means many riders are forced to ride in a way that is backwards thinking and perhaps too over-dominating off the horse.

Riding todays fences has forced riders into thinking that they need ultimate 200% control, to be able to place the horse exactly right at the fence. And although these falls have not always been at the technical fences, sadly this method of riding has perhaps transferred to every fence being ridden like that to some degree.

Either way, you cant take away from the fact that to jump clear round XC courses these days we've had to take over the horse's natural survival instinct along with the fact that riders may have also forgotten how to ride these fences in a natural way.

I think that the above points and general lack of forward riding in today's top riders was emphasised by the results of express eventing. Only the riders who rode their horses forward and hunted their fences got their horses round in a natural and free-flowing way. The riders who were even the slightest bit backwards thinking and too technical with their jump riding, simply didnt make it.

Hence why we didnt have these awful accidents 15/20 years ago- the courses encouraged bold confident riding, so riders learnt to hunt round and jump all fences off a forward stride. All these rotational falls have been because the horse lost its natural instinct for placing itself right at the jump, then jumped the fence too slowly or chipped in. Perhaps there needs to be a better balance of forward-ness with control, but not completly dominating control, if that makes sense?
 
Eventing has evolved and become more technical, it's just that the horses and riders have not changed at the same rate.

Would todays horses and riders cope with the events from 20 years ago?

From a spectator point of view (if you can answer this) what do you prefer watching? Todays technical events (without any fatalities) or yesteryears bold riding big straight forward courses?
 
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From a spectator point of view (if you can answer this) what do you prefer watching? Todays technical events (without any fatalities) or yesteryears bold riding big straight forward courses?

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Interesting question - falls used to be far more common, really ugly 'thrills and spills' type things. Horrible to watch but hardly ever fatal.

Modern eventing at top level is a far clearer display of skill. Not that 'old school' riders weren't skilled, but there was a greater element of the outstandingly fearless XC horse winning the day (like Murphy Himself).

Falls are less common now but the implications seem to be worse.

Not sure which I prefer watching to be honest (putting aside the accident stats).
 
Now There's a thought- Murphy himself would have had some horrific accidents over todays courses. He simply wouldnt have stood a chance and I dread to think what would have happened. Which is shame because he is the ultimate XC horse isnt he and exactly what an eventer should be?

There you go-so today's XC is really discouraging the natural boldness and instinct of the horse


Anyway, I definately prefer watching video's of XC in the old days then I do of it nowdays- yes there were accidents but usually the rider/horse were ok.
 
I agree about the backwards riding, and todays types of courses perhaps encouraging this.

Today I fence judged a BE Novice course.

Ours was just a hanging log, but the fence preceding this was either the straight route of a corner that was at right angles to the fence before it, and then in a straight line to my fence....

or the alternative fences were two fairly skinny upside down V's that you had to jump on 2 sides of a circle, and then either circle past the 1st fence again to get to mine, or turn right and jump my fence from a severe angle.

Out of maybe the 250 or so horses we saw, probably only 30 made a good job of it.

And I have to say, a lot of them were either the professionals or the JRN's.

Me and my friend had our hearts in our mouths most of the time
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The stride from the corner to my fence required a real kick on to make it.

But most people landed after that corner, and just sat and waited for my fence to come to them, the horse hadn't made the distance and then a chip-in or grand leap was required.

Most did the former.

All bar one still jumped it, but the more long-legged horses almost didn't snap up in front quickly enough.

People that took the alternative route and circled before my fence were perfect, but the people who did the severe angle, looked a little 'dangerous'.

Most of the JRN's whether on horses or ponies, drove hard towards my fence and jumped cleanly.

So.... I think the 'pussy-footing' and hooking of the horse was the downfall.

I'm glad to say we had no fallers though!
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I do not think its that simple. The reason we have moved away from the big scary type fences is because they are too straight forward. There is only one way to jump them and it involves kicking! There are still big fences at Badminton which would be rider scarers but these never cause an issue. The Cottesmore leap at Burghley is just a formality. The reason skinnys have evolved is because there were too many clears and nobody wants a dressage competition.

Take team chasing the courses are bold and challenging but rarely cause an issue. The only time they do is because people are going too fast or make a mistake and then do not get away with it because they are going so fast. I would not like to see xc go this way where its fastest who wins.
 
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I do not think its that simple. The reason we have moved away from the big scary type fences is because they are too straight forward. There is only one way to jump them and it involves kicking! There are still big fences at Badminton which would be rider scarers but these never cause an issue. The Cottesmore leap at Burghley is just a formality. The reason skinnys have evolved is because there were too many clears and nobody wants a dressage competition.

Take team chasing the courses are bold and challenging but rarely cause an issue. The only time they do is because people are going too fast or make a mistake and then do not get away with it because they are going so fast. I would not like to see xc go this way where its fastest who wins.

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toally agree!
 
lec, you make it sound as if the courses of old were just one big rider frightener after another. that really wasn't the case - well, maybe in the 60s and 70s, but not in the 80s and 90s imho. Centaur's Leap was always a bit of a let-up fence for the big boys (although it terrifies me!)
they were technical, but in a different way. ski jump to an upright at the bottom; Badminton drop, 2 strides to a huge bounce; quarry with a corner on the way out; triple of arrowheads; doubles of huge corners; serious bounces into water. they tested athleticism, accuracy, bravery.
i think Murphy would still have done really well nowadays, when Ian got him anchored he was very obedient (e.g. he was a very good sjer, not wild and uncontrollable), it was only when Ian let him go that the horse took strides out with impunity!
 
I agree with all the above posts, particularly re loss of impulsion in front of a fence - particularly square table type.

Can happen for many reasons but mainly IMHO because:
a. rider left it too late to collect horse
b. rider slows up for fence or combination, but fails to maintain impulsion
c. gimmicky dressing on fence, causing horse to lose concentration and back off - sometimes unexpectedly.

As Kerilli already knows (and is in her letter) I also think saddle design now plays a part in keeping riders in the plate, when nature would have had them out of it - PM your e-mail address to kerilli and read her excellent letter!!
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I agree with all the comments about forward riding, and the over technicality of higher level XC courses now, and I still have my concerns about the loss of the roads and tracks phase.

But another thing I have noticed, well here in Australia anyway, is that particularly at lower levels there are more people 'having a go' which is great but watching many of them ride round is frightning. They may have a textbook position, but they are not very good riders in terms of balance, leg strenght and seeing a stride at speed. I have had to many heart stopping moments where an out of balance rider has interfered with the horse who only made it over up right out of sheer honesty/athletisicm/ self preservation.
There have also been some very bad rider falls.
They are generally riders who have come up through riding schools and never been given the chance to develop the balance you get racing around bareback and messing about. I realise that H&S make teaching this very difficult but surely some one out there has to say something to these people before they have a bad fall.

I also think teaching people 'HOW to fall' (ie roll with it if you can...) would be worthwhile. I have seen 2 serious neck injuries becasue the riders looked 'up' at the approaching ground and basically landed on their heads. Fortunatly slow motion so no brain damage.
 
Just what I said in my response to Kerilli's letter. (see her post below on Safety)

Have a look by PMing her with your e-mail address!!
 
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