Ongoing lumpy skin - experiences please!

GinaGeo

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I have a three year old with some sort of ongoing skin issue. They start off as raised lumps, before developing a head and then scabbing.

It’s been lingering for a year now. Having started on his Right shoulder and slowly spread back over his trunk and slowly to the other side.

My vet has seen him multiple times. So far he’s had Malsaeb shampoo, progressively longer courses of antibiotics, steroid injections, oral steroids, potassium iodide, antihistamines.

Steroids work for a few days. Antihistamines do nothing (expected). Antibiotics don’t seem to do much.

He’s also been on Sarc-Ex for a month. He’s had Aloe Vera on them. And is currently getting a lot of Linseed to try and help his skin conditon.

He spent the summer off all supplements and hard feed.

Keeping him covered doesn’t seem to make a difference.

And they are stubbornly going nowhere.

He is currently clipped so I can wash him daily with lavender wash. It doesn’t make them go, but it does seem to stop the scabs building up.

I am going to push for a blood test and skin scrapes.

But wondered if anybody else has any Experiences that might point us int he right direction - we are at abit of a loss...
 

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suebou

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My dwb mare is allergic to just about everything. Looks the same to me, I’d definitely get him tested, the monthly injections can be very expensive, just to warn you!
 

be positive

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I had one here that was similar, the vet tried various tests and treatments although it had not gone on as long as yours, it was totally resolved with a course of NAF detox, it went away within about a week and never came back, we have no idea what caused it as nothing else changed while on the detox so we guess it sorted him out.
 

suebou

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I really really hope that works. We’ve had my mare six years and' apart from the stress of trying to manage her unbearable itching, the cost of the vaccine would have been beyond reason without a relative in the vet profession.
 

FFAQ

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My friend's pony was diagnosed as atopic (Is that right? Can't exactly remember the term for extreme allergies) a couple of years ago and went down with steroid-induced laminitis after being on high levels of steroids for quite some time. Obviously she had to come off the tablets and in desperation my friend offered liquorice root powder as free choice to the pony and spoke to Simon at trinity consultants. He recommended L94 followed by P45 for the laminitis. The pony has a couple of really good sweetitch rugs and my friend washes and sprays her religiously with goodbye flys. You would never guess there was sweetitch now!
Not quite the same, but I would recommend talking to trinity consultants if you've tried everything else!
 

cauda equina

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My old boy has had something similar this year; little lumps (looked like barley bumps, but couldn't have been as he goes nowhere near barley) which then formed a head and scabbed. They were almost all between his front legs and on the left side of his belly
The vet saw them and left me to manage as best I could, as he has been scabby for the last few years (not like this though) and swabs/scrapes have never been helpful.
They were obviously itchy and I bathed him daily with a weak mixture of neem oil and Hibiscrub, which reduced the amount of rubbing but didn't seem to stop new lumps forming.
In desperation I tried homeopathic sulphur. All the lumps have now gone and I'm just getting rid of the last of the scabs with a nit comb.
Whether the sulphur had any effect I've no idea; I think it's more likely that he was reacting to something in the environment that has now gone
I hope you find an answer for your youngster. He looks a lovely sort
 

kathantoinette

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I had a horse with similar. First pic was not long after it started. Had scrapes which didn’t show anything. Tried a hundred washes, creams etc. Nothing made a difference.
The other pics were maybe a year or so later. He finally developed the large lumps which I had a biopsy taken. It was not a good result. BUT there are lots of other things it could be I’m sure.
Are there any other issues going on with your horse? Excessive urinating etc.
 

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Carrottom

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Although I wouldn't expect it to be a cure, I would give a good balancer for skin health. E.g. Forage Plus hoof and skin health, to hopefully boost his resilience.
 

Melody Grey

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Is it worth trying some activated charcoal if you're considering the detox route? Is there anything unusual/ abundant in your grazing?
 

GinaGeo

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Thank you everybody.

There don’t seem to be any other signs - other than the itching he's the happiest chap. He does seem to have a bit of a poor immune system. But that might be because it’s pre-occupied with his skin.

I don't think it's anything in my grazing as my horses spend winter on an all weather tracking system, eating haylage. It could I suppise be something to do with grass itself - I hope not! We did have a lot of clover this year and his skin was certainly worse when he was on the grass over the summer, but that could equally have been because of flies. We do have ponds and we do have woods next to our paddocks so that is difficult to manage. He did spend half of summer wrapped up in sweet itch rugs but that didn't make a difference.

He gets fed the Pro-Hoof balancer with extra Vit E at the moment because he is off grass. I also tried him off this over summer as we thought something in that might be triggering it - but that didn't seem to be the case.

He's been on the Global Herbs Sarc-ex for a month now. It's supposed to boost immune system but doesn't seem to have helped.

My vet remains convinced that they were infected fly bites, but I am not convinced. I am going to speak to her again re. allergy testing.

Those that have gone down this route - or have experience of the immunotherapy injections - did you have much success?
 

be positive

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It sounds more as if his immune system is overeactive, steroids which were the only thing that helped so far work to suppress it not boost it so I would question the use of something to boost it.

I have one here that is getting over an odd skin condition, we know she has an overeactive immune system and it started a while back around the time she was put on a vit e supplement, that has been stopped and she is improving with no new eruptions just the scabs gradually coming off, the vet has seen them and had no idea of the cause.
 

Sandy200

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I had a similar issue with my young horse as a 3/4 year old, didn’t have the lumps but was very itchy and scraping herself along the stable walls. We had allergy testing done and she turned out to be allergic to a specific dust mite and dock leaves and slightly allergic to most things you feed a horse including linseed. I had bought linseed to see if that helped her skin and it made things worse. She had an 8 month course of the immunotherapy injections and has only hay and dried grass/readigrass to eat and now doesn’t itch at all. It could either be the injections or just limiting what she eats but she finished the injections 6 months ago and is still fine. It wasn’t cheap but she was so uncomfortable with the itching that it was worth it.
 

GinaGeo

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Very interesting. We have had several abscesses over summer. And every knick or cut seems to blow up and need antibiotics despite careful cleaning.

Thank you for that link - it makes some interesting reading.

Those that have allergy tested did you blood tests or have the intradermal skin tests? My vet has told me that blood tests do not work and that if we wanted to go down that route we would need to have the much more expensive and intensive intradermal skin tests done.
 

fairhill

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Before going down the route of allergy testing, have you tried eliminating everything except grass/hay from his diet for a month and see if symptoms improve?
My mare had a couple of years of skin/health issues, including a rash like your horse, abscesses, thrush, lymphangitis...
I found linseed gave her lumps, almost like sarcoids in places, as well as scurfy skin. Soya gave her mudrash symptoms on her heels, even in the dry summers. Alfalfa was the cause of her lymphangitis.
My vet was very sceptical about her being allergic to feed, but I was able to see patterns in her symptoms following diet changes (or rather with the benefit of hind sight I coul).
I now have to be very careful what she eats (she just has grass and meadow hay) but she’s much healthier for it, and hasn’t had an allergic episode for 2 years.
 

GinaGeo

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Yes - he spent the whole of summer living out being fed nothing as I was on a similar train of thought. It was probably worse than ever.

If there is a food related allergy then it is to grass. At least allergy testing would tell me which grasses. He certainly seemed worse when Timothy Haylage was included in his diet.

I did try him solely on Lucerne for awhile. And it certainly didn’t make him worse. I’m just not quite sure how I would manage him without grass if it comes to that. I suppose like anything you find a way.
 

chaps89

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Do you have the option of moving him elsewhere (even just temporarily) to see if it's something environmental?
I was going to ask about whether you've tried different bedding but if he's lived out over summer it rules out a reaction to his bed.
If it's your own land or a yard you're planning on being at for a while, could you get the soil and grass analysed?
My old boy had this (not as bad), we never truly got to the bottom of it - the vet felt it was his immune system being a bit pants and at coat change the pores getting clogged up. I can't remember the name of the solution I had to apply but it absolutely stank (like garlic if I remember correctly), may be someone else will know what I'm talking about!
 

GinaGeo

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That is interesting.

Back in his two year old year he never really bothered to lose his winter coat through summer. He did eventually in August and then shortly after developed the first lot of spots.

I clipped him this Spring so I could get to him to bath and so we didn't have a repeat.

He also has it in winter when fed local haylage, and isn't out on our pasture at all as he's on the all the weather track. Unfortunately, I can't feed Hay due to storage issues and another one of the herd suffering with COPD and not being able to to tolerate anything other than haylage. The haylage is meadow haylage and is good quality - he doesn't get any of it all in Summer and the reaction is still there.

He is at home on our own land so it would be particularly gutting if there is something on our land that we cannot change. I do have friends he could go to for a bit - but I'm not sure anybody would be willing to take an extra in the current weather! Something to explore in Spring I think.

Vet is booked in for teeth, boosters and microchips. I've asked about further investigations and we will discuss.
 

Orangehorse

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Mine had something similar, but as he is 21 now and it was when he was about 4 I can't really remember how it was resolved, but it did go. I remember having to miss a big show because of it. There were lots of little scabby lumps, all over his neck and trunk and where the saddle went, but in his case they didn't seem to be itchy, or hurt in any way as I did ride him, just there. Have you asked Global Herbs? They have a veterinary help line.

A couple of years later mine developed full blown ringworm, from, I think the little rescue pony he had as a companion which had one single ringworm place under his chin. He was plastered from ears to tail on one side and it made him ill, and I remember giving him a tonic from Global Herbs for that, to help him recover.
 

Gloi

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We had one with similar skin problems and abscesses but it turned out to be Cushings which would be very unlikely in a 3yo, though there is always the chance of a pituitary gland problem . It stopped when ours went on Prascend.
 

GinaGeo

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Thank you - lots to think about and bring up with my Vet.

The Pituitary gland issue is something to think about particularly with him being in no rush to shed.

He's also sporting an abnormal quantity of fluff on his legs for an Anglo Arab.

Food for thought.
 

Gloi

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Thank you - lots to think about and bring up with my Vet.

The Pituitary gland issue is something to think about particularly with him being in no rush to shed.

He's also sporting an abnormal quantity of fluff on his legs for an Anglo Arab.

Food for thought.

Could be worth testing then even though he is young.
 

PurBee

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Hey,
I joined the forum to reply to your issue, as I’ve had one similar with my gelding, who’s 3/4 Arab.
With my boy he would get small lumps, which would ooze, crust over and then the hair eventually would fall out. He wasn’t particularly itchy, he’s manner fine apart from this. Stools fine.
Lumps started on neck, withers, then side flanks, very slowly. Forelimbs affected too, which oozed yellow stickiness a lot presumably due to being lower than heart. He wasn’t itching any of them to my amazement!
It started when I got meadow haylage. Good quality from the Uk, brilliant haylage producers! However , their meadow haylage contained a lot of buttercup...I could easily pull out 2-3 leaves with every handful of haylage.
Buttercup is toxic fresh, but dried in hay it’s ok, the poison’s neutralize during drying. BUT haylage is preserving the moisture to use to ferment the crop, so the toxins present in the haylage are still able to affect the horse.

My mare eating the same stuff, mother of the gelding, was fine. She’s half Arab. Half welsh D. No raised spots or anything!

So my theory was perplexing about the buttercup. It’s obviously not toxic enough to affect every horse....why?
By the way, in their grazing fields there’s some buttercup which neither of them eat at all. I top it constantly.

After researching more about weed toxins, many websites put forward the idea that if a horse has some liver damage anyway from some ‘toxic event’ in its life, then their future ability to deal with small amount of toxicity is limited and could show hives, foot issues etc, bowel changes etc.

This gelding I’ve had since birth, except for 18 months he was at a different place, and basically neglected (loan gone wrong episode) He’s always been very curious and ‘mouthy’, would try to nibble at anything, and I suspect that during his neglectful months on rough land he consumed ragwort, which does cause liver cell death...or something equally as toxic. His mother, loaned with him, far too sensible to try anything other than what she knows, far more experienced grazing ‘in the wild’, doesn’t touch anything but grass and willow leaves.

As you’ve had your boy only a short time and don’t know his history, it could be a compromised liver, and the toxins in everyday weeds are accumulating and bothering him.

It took ages for the raised lumps to go with mine. I wormed him thinking it could be that...the lumps did kinda go a bit after that, but returned. So the wormer seemed to work due to presumably kicking his immune system into even higher alert?
However, what really did seem to put an end to it was Protexin gut balancer. I also threw charcoal tablets at him, and bowel cleansing clay, clay has to be soaked in water before adding like a slurry to beet pulp. This regimen solved the issue.

The toxins had built up in his system from the buttercup in haylage and the liver couldn’t detox them fully causing an immune reaction.
I stopped the haylage very early on upon my suspicions, the lumps remained, only lessened slightly. I reintroduced it purposefully for a day and the lumps got worse.

Another element to this is that on my land, autumn time, late summer, the long tall fescue at the edge of the fields which has gone to seed also grows ergot on the seed heads. I’m in west Ireland, it’s perpetually moist and damp here.
Right now all grasses in this whole mountain range gone to seed has loads of ergot black ‘mouse droppings’ growing on them. It’s more of a problem with tall fescue, but I also see it on sweet vernal grass. Not so much on creeping rescue.
Many other long grasses, plants and weeds that are tall have black mould on them, not hugely visible but if you really look you’ll see mould.

I had my horses out grazing until November, as I had topped the fields of the seed heads, but my boy came in with hives on him. Not bad at first, I noticed one or two, but then gradually getting worse. So I presumed he was reaching over the fence And picking at the tall grasses infected with ergot. He had loose stools too. As I couldn’t strim the strips of long grass around all the acreage I bought them into their ‘dry lot’ for the winter.

He’s a curious grazer and will eat thistles, ivy on trees, oak leaves, gorse bark and leaves, ferns....I’m constantly strimming and pulling weeds, trimming trees, out of his reach. He’s decided the laurel and rhododendron isn’t good eating - thank god! He can navigate through a 3 string electric fence that’s 5 foot high and graze the outer boundaries and then re-enter the field for ‘home time’ at night. Only this year I discovered his skill at doing this when I discovered horse prints through the woods/boundaries and a slightly loose electric fence, which I normally have strained tight.

So your boy could be consuming something toxic from pasture in summer, which you don’t know about, which is why he’s got lumps in the summer, and then the ‘meadow haylage’ could easily have conspicuous ‘everyday weeds’ in it which normally are fine in hay, but in haylage would still contain the toxin. Suspect previous liver damage, so he has reduced ability to handle toxins. Suspect mould on feeds.
Protexin, charcoal and clay slurry in beet pulp is miraculous to help pull poison out of their system/bowels and repopulate with good flora.

I’ve studied my pastures and weeds and grasses since in depth, to try to understand what a horse can and can’t tolerate, and try to increase the productivity of good grazing grasses. What really does grow in your pasture throughout the months?

Before ergot and mould appears on the grasses here in autumn, my gelding is lump-free and is so healthy, full of bounce, looks great - autumn comes and despite my topping/strimming efforts, he starts getting lumps, loses his vitality somewhat, bowels intermittent loose droppings.

When I switched to Timothy/rye haylage he did ok. Ryegrass only tetraploid species can cause them to become sensitive to UV rays, so sunlight will bring out the lumps, even if they’re eating safe food. It’s suggestive of liver damage and not detoxing this UV compound in ryegrass. Again, if your horse becomes lumpy during sunnier weather, suspect liver damage and ryegrass consumption. Ryegrass doesn’t CAUSE liver damage, but will highlight liver damage in a horse UV sensitive. No horse should be allergic to the sun!

You can spend lots on liver tests to confirm damage, biopsies, which are stressful to the already stressed horse, yet many vets online say symptoms such as the above suggest it, and due to the liver cells never regenerating again we have to manage their diet especially well and periodically give probiotics, and bowel cleansers during a toxin induced flare-up, whilst trying to avoid all toxic weeds and grasses (aslike clover, buttercup, ragwort, dock etc).

It might be that the liver damage alters their hormone responses, as the liver formulates aswell as breaks down hormones, so if this function is compromised, it might suggest why he doesn’t shed until late. My gelding sheds late, but doesn’t grow a very fluffy winter coat, except on his forelimbs, very long hair! His mother, fine, normal coats and sheds late March.
If it was cushings you’d see him with the other signs, like a crusty neck, metabolism issues, slight constant laminitis.
My gelding is 7. He gets ‘footy’ when going through these immune system alert lump phases, he’s barefoot and very sound on any surface except when he gets lumps appearing. I’ve found the feet will show first a problem before the body presents symptoms.

Good luck, I hope some of the above is useful to discuss as possibilities with your vet.
 

GinaGeo

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Thank you very much. That is very interesting indeed. He sounds very similar to your boy in a lot of ways.

I have had him from a yearling, and he has been with me the whole time except for a few months he went away on youngstock livery. The stud was pretty clean and I am quite sure he won't have eaten anything poisonous on my land. But you are quite right that that is a possibility. I will have a particularly good hunt around in Spring. Timothy Haylage definitely doesn't help in his case.

It sounds like the Protexin/ Charcoal might be worth throwing at him in any case.

Interestingly I have started washing him regularly in the Barrier "Pesky Pest" wash and he seems much better after that. I'd stick my neck out and say he's looking as good as he's looked in a while.

It could of course, just be that he's off grass now and whatever is causing it has subsided.

In the meantime the allergy tests will have wait until raises it's head again.

Horses!
 

Errin Paddywack

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Would it be worth trying him on Milk Thistle? My boy had a horrendous case of a rain scald tye problem one winter/spring. Huge patches all over his back, scabby oozing, horrible. I was at my wits end then tried MT. It started to clear almost immediately and never came back, interestingly he didn't get pastern dermatitis that summer. I kept him on the MT right through the summer and next winter and no futher problems. However I stopped the MT the following summer and the pastern dermatitis came back with a vengeance. He was due to be put down along with his brother so I didn't get the chance to try the MT again.
 

GinaGeo

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Just an update...

He had another flare up so when vaccinations were due I had him Allergy Tested. My Vet was of the opinion that the "Sensitest" blood test was much improved and we decided to go with that.

Results have just come back...

Linseed, Barley, Soybean, Wheat, Carrot, Sugar Beet, Alfalfa, Corn, Peas are all positives. Nothing related to grass or mould or insects which is something. Of those he is most sensitive to Linseed - which I have been stuffing down him in an effort to improve his skin :rolleyes:

Am cutting him back down to basics (Grass nuts) when everybody else gets a little something for coming in. And will monitor. I think this is probably part of the jigsaw puzzle, but will give his system a month to clam down and see where we are...
 

PurBee

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Hmmm, what a headscratching case hives can be!

The results confirm legumes, so perhaps its a lectin intolerance possibility, considering linseed he shows most sensitivity.
Yet also the commonality of ALL those he’s tested positive for is high carb/starch, in comparison to grasses which are much lower in carbs. Did the test check for alfalfa? Its a grassy legume so would be interesting to see if he reacted.

Lectins can be destroyed by pressure cooking for at least half hour. No other preparation/cooking method destroys lectins.

If he’s not on grass, an omega 3 to give him aside from linseed is perilla oil or ahi flower oil. These arent as common as fish oil so are expensive, to dose a horse, unless you can find bulk supply.

Im not sure how horses get on with fish oil, or if its biologically right to give a herbivore a highly processed animal oil product. Grass and plant omega 3’s gives ALA type of omega 3 which gets broken down to DHA in the body, while meat sources, fish, provide DHA only.

The grass nuts youre giving could have omega 3 in them if the pelleting process, which often produces high heat temporarily, doesnt destroy the omega 3 (cooking destroys omega 3 so thats why i never boiled linseed, pressure cooking would also destroy the omega 3 in linseed, to make it lectin-free, so thats a useless endeavour as thats the reason for giving linseed to horses)

In humans whenever allergies take over a persons life, there’s a root cause not identified. Its fine to have one or 2 ingredients that the body says no to, which a person avoids and otherwise feels healthy. Yet when there’s a plethora of allergies and other symptoms it suggests a major part of the body is out of balance.
In humans, allergies and bowel bacteria imbalance/symptoms go hand in hand. The immune system is flagging safe foods as allergens and needing to be destroyed by immune cells and inflammation is caused by this process. For this flagging to have happened the food has to have made it into the blood stream, and the only way that can happen is if the lining and integrity of the gut wall is compromised, thin, weak.

(In humans this is mainly due to antibiotic use and subsequent not eating probiotic foods, bad diet of processed foods.
In horses, it could be redworm parasites, and their encysted younger counterparts that burrow into the intestinal lining. In horses a long string of antibiotics could also upset the gut microbe balance too like in humans. As horses eat raw wild food, theres loads of bacteria living on that food to repopulate the gut...so they getaway with 1 course of antibiotics. Cooked food destroys these live bacteria so the human processed diet is deprived of good bacteria to repopulate the gut.)

Food particles not broken down fully make it through the gaps in the intestinal lining...where they really shouldnt be!....and this sends a whole alert to the immune system that something ‘foreign’ has invaded. When the immune system cells pick identify the ‘offending’ foods, they ‘tag’ them into the immune systems memory. So even if this food is eaten and doesnt go through the bowel wall, the intestines will inflame as immune cells are there. The food has been tagged as foreign and so it no longer matters what part of the body the food is in. In humans a skin cream containing an edible allergen will set off an immune response.

(Finally medical studies are confirming ‘leaky gut syndrome’ etiology, now we have the sensitivity of technology to measure the processes occurring, it was always suspected for decades but never ‘scientifically’ confirmed until recent years)

The answer is to repair the bowels, and avoid offending allergens while doing this. Even after repair of the bowel and better health ensues, the allergens have to be avoided as they are logged in the memory of the immune system, and if consumed can cause the intestines to inflame due to immune system memory of that food.
With a horse (and human) first stage would be pre and probiotics, to support the gut function while they receive encysted red worm moxidectin dose or fenbendazole.

https://www.viovet.co.uk/blog/p250-Worming-against-encysted-small-redworm

Tapeworm should be done too, as those love to attach themselves in a group in the small intestine, vampirising the horses nutrient supply, and so they do damage and puncture the intestinal wall, allowing food particles through to be flagged by the immune system and set off a hives/inflammation reaction.

Use wormers for these specific worms that havent been used before. If you always use moxi for red worm, then switch to fenbendazol panacur, liquid bottle 5 day course. Same with tapeworm, switch the wormer to the one you normally use for a different drug class. This helps stop resistance to the same drug. My gelding has had hives as a reaction to wormers and parasites dying. Dont be surprised if you see this, its the immune system doing its job, cleaning up dead worm cell debris within the body. Its on overload to produce hives, suggesting a lot of action is being taken by the immune system. If the horse is not experiencing anaphylaxis, rapid breathing, sweating, loads of hives suddenly all over, very ill, and just has hives he’s not itching, and is otherwise normal and eating fine, the immune system reaction and hives are normal, and not a threat to the horse.

Once wormed, which takes about 2 weeks to fully go through the process of killing worms, them being expelled, immune reaction and calming down, system cleaned out, no more wormer left in the system....then continue with a very good dose of pre-and probiotics. Plenty of forage mixed grasses hay, for wild bacteria and fibre.

While the wormers are working if you use a different drug class, monitor his behaviour. My gelding and mare can get quite grumpy and flighty, not wanting to be groomed on the belly or touched much. It shows the wormer is working and theyre digestion is uncomfortable. Up the probiotic if this happens. You might want to not ride your horse if he gets tetchy due to the wormers, for your own safety and to keep his stress levels low while theyre going through him.

I havent researched for horses specifically but one amino acid which studies show in humans to be excellent at speedily repairing the gut wall is Glutamine. Its a protein and they repair the body, with glutamine being king repairer for tissue repair. Studies prove glutamine to repair the gut wall.
Humans take 1g to repair daily and more is safe, so a horse would require a lot more, research this, it would probably be 5-15g depending on case. Start low dose initially, 1g a day for 3 days, then Up to 3g, couple of days, work up to required dose. This high dose would be for a month or 2, then reduced to maintenance levels for a few more months. See how he is doing, stools, behaviour.
Youll have to steer clear of grains, legumes for a good long while after sticking to this protocol.

Perhaps after 24 months you could try him with just 1 ingredient he tested allergy to. A handful of carrots.
Really monitor him closely in the 3 days the carrots are passing through his system. Has his behaviour altered? Hives? Stool changes? More gassy, bloated? Keep a close eye during this initial test.

How long the immune system stores memory of an allergy is an unknown. It is known that allergies in humans can come and then go, so suggests the immune system ‘re-sets’ its memory bank.
With gut repair, worming, probiotics, glutamine and steering clear of allergens, it could completely turn around your horse. Its a process of healing, than there being a quick fix solution.
 

PurBee

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Protexin probiotic does have alfalfa meal as a carrier for the bacteria, so as i see he did in fact test positive for alfalfa, its best to source a different probiotic. Check the ingredients closely what else is mixed in with the probiotic.
 

GinaGeo

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PurBee - That really is fascinating. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond along with everybody else.

I was just going to worm for Encysted Redworm, but will make sure I keep a particularly close eye on him. I notice that the Protexin Recover Aid doesn't have Alfalfa in - so a course of that is what I will follow up with.

I really love HHO sometimes - will continue to keep this updated in the hope it might help others out in the future!
 
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