Opinions- does this saddle fit?

_GG_ said:
It is too narrow. You can see this quite easily by comparing the angle of the tree to the angle of the shoulder. They should be the same, but the angle of the tree is more upright than your horses shoulder angle, so this will cause pinching.

This is bad for two main reasons, one is that the shoulder in that position already has very little room, so in movement, as the blade moves up and back, the will be definite pinching which will be very uncomfortable for the horse.

Also, there is a nerve that runs in the area being pinched and that nerve being pinched can cause a horse to buck and hollow out through the back.

This saddle is also too far back...it is the saddle at fault...I know it is sat behind the shoulder, but being too narrow means any movement of the shoulder will push it back. When pushed back, as in the pictures, it sits ver the floating ribs which is not good. There is a very easy way to determine when a saddle is too long on horses where it is difficult to feel the ribs. The over the flanks, the hair lies in opposite directions. Where the hair from the horses barrel meets the hair coming from the flank, you can see a clear line. Follow this line directly up to the spine and that is the point at which a saddle should never reach. A saddle should always sit in front of that line. This saddle is on the line, not good. Also, when saddles sit this far back, as a horse engages behind and funds through the back, especially in canter, the movement through the SI joint pushes the saddle forwards. In this instance, you would have a saddle being literally squeezed between two very sensitive pressure points and an extremely unhappy pony.

In schooling terms, this saddle would mean that every time your horse worked correctly, it would be punished for it.

I would be really very disappointed with this saddle fitter to be honest.

There are so many different options, if I we you, I would call as many saddle fitters in the area as possible. I would rather have a well fitted second hand saddle and pay for a few different fitters to get there, than a badly fitting expensive new one.

Hope that helps.
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Thank you for taking the time to write this. When I sat the saddle onto him today I struggled to 'place' it as any further forward and it was on the shoulder. I moved it back but then it pinched behind the shoulder. I asked them to bring a range of saddles suitable to show/WH/dressage in but that had a small knee block. I said he may well take a 16.5 inch as previous saddlers had measured him up. I've tried the following saddlers:
Robert Jenkins (master saddler)
Melanie Isaacs (master saddler)
Jane Saunders (on recommendation- no idea of her quals)
Jackie Roberts (as above)
Clive Whereatt

I dont think there is anyone left other than a lady called Katy farrell who fits wows- I did contact her in Novemeber and she told me she would bring a small wow to try. Despite leaving another message I've heard nothing from her. This pony has not been ridden consistently due to poorly fitting saddles for the last 18 months.
 
looks to be too far back anyway, but it doesn't look to be a particularly brilliant fit. However, it is a new saddle and they do tend to perch until they have settledand moulded to the shape of the back.

On a different score, he's a pretty pony although he looks hacked off with having a saddle on. and the little dun in the background has got a lovely lovely head!!:D
 
Kallibear said:
Pony looks very wide and round. Saddle looks like a standard A shaped tree. He might be better with a wide hoop tree (i.e upside down U shape to the front) Have a look here to see the difference http://saddlefitter.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/from-tree-up-hoop-vs-standard.html?m=1


It looks a little too narrow at the front: the balance is fine as the panels are very deep at the back so lift it. If there were the slim wide panels he needed it would be far too high in front.

It looks like it's too far back: because it's too narrow and the wrong shape his big shoulders are shoving the knee rolls backwards. The girth is a good couple of inches too far back. Length is fine if it was in the right place.

I'd was something a little wider, with a wider/round head at the front and much less gusset at the back. I know it's not bedded down yet but it looks very perched and will roll.

I see it's a Native Pony saddle. They do that kind of saddle or could custom make it. For that price Ideal will custom make too. Try their H&C saddles.
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That link really helped explain to me what a hoop tree is. Thank you! I will contact ideal tomorrow. Im really grateful for the time taken to create the reply!
 
shadowboy said:
Thank you for taking the time to write this. When I sat the saddle onto him today I struggled to 'place' it as any further forward and it was on the shoulder. I moved it back but then it pinched behind the shoulder. I asked them to bring a range of saddles suitable to show/WH/dressage in but that had a small knee block. I said he may well take a 16.5 inch as previous saddlers had measured him up. I've tried the following saddlers:
Robert Jenkins (master saddler)
Melanie Isaacs (master saddler)
Jane Saunders (on recommendation- no idea of her quals)
Jackie Roberts (as above)
Clive Whereatt

I dont think there is anyone left other than a lady called Katy farrell who fits wows- I did contact her in Novemeber and she told me she would bring a small wow to try. Despite leaving another message I've heard nothing from her. This pony has not been ridden consistently due to poorly fitting saddles for the last 18 months.
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No problem. I question also the channel width of the saddle for your horse too. Looks like it only clears the spine and not the ligaments that sit either side of the spine.

Get a piece of coal from somewhere and use it to draw on him. The videos starting with the link below will teach you how to see what your horse actually needs on his back and how you can appraise saddles yourself. I would always advise using a fully qualified saddle fitter, but as you are finding out, it is good to have a basic knowledge yourself so that you can pick up on things that someone might miss on a bad day :-)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U2mKz0uP_K8&feature=relmfu
 
Oh poor you, yes it does look perched, which is a shame as they are meant for that type of horse, and it is a nice saddle although a bit too modern for my tastes.

I am only on saddle fitter one and just 4 months of not riding my horse, should I be grateful?!

I was thinking of Fylde and Arabian saddle company saddles possibly although my horse is not quite as wide and flat as yours from the looks of things so they might suit you.

I am wary of going made to measure as they are often no better and I think a bit more awkward to send back!

I really just want a battered, ancient old second hand thing that fits, but it seems saddle fitters are not in the business of such bargains!
 
i would be sending these photos to the company that sent the saddler out and asking them to collect the saddle and requesting a full refund including the fitting costs.
the gullet is too narrow, it sit too high on the withers and too far back, you right you need a straight cut saddle. this one just perches on top of the pony.
in your shoes i would be looking at an albion k2
 
All ideals are made to template so they are great for a custom fit. I have just had another one done from them for my wide boy. The grandee with xc blocks, and have had the h and c before too.
 
shadowboy said:
T

In total I've paid out £245 just in saddle fitters fees!
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Find a new saddler!

That saddle is never going to fit that pony. It is too narrow in the gullet, is definitely perched above the shoulders but certainly couldn't go any further forward without impinging on the movement of the shoulders. The view of the saddle from the back looks as if the saddle is rather to one side.
 
I would say it's too narrow and could do with being 1/2 inch shorter.

It will drop when your sat on it and the flocking will bed down but it still looks a little narrow.

If you find you need a 16.5 but the horse needs a 16 you can have the panels made to a 16 and the seat made to a 16.5.
 
I'm not entirely sure the tree itself is too narrow - just that the panels are completely wrong and this is adding to the perching effect.

This is my personal opinion, but it is not a nice looking saddle. The flaps look like they should be on a different saddle, while I appreciate the angle of the photo, the cantle doesn't seem to be sat on the panels symmetrically.

I had to get a WoW for my horse that is almost identical in shape - was the only way to get a saddle to fit!
 
Dear OP

Try looking at Strada Saddles UK. They are specifically designed for flat backed, wide ribbed, no wither, big shoulder you name it types, as well as any other type/shape of horse due to their wide range of tree sizes/widths. They are all 16.5". Ilga Cottle, the lady who does all the fitting in the south, lives in Wiltshire but travels all over the country, she is 110% committed to her craft.

I had an impossible to fit Knabstrupper mare (think spacehopper), we managed (just) with the most extreme Strada tree, the next step would have been tree-less, which i really didn't want.

Take a look at her website, ring her for a chat, she will tell you an awful lot from photos that you send her and she is extremely reasonable in her call out charges it (it was £50 a couple of years ago but I am quite local to her). They are expensive new but there is a reasonable second had availability (on the Forum page of the website). Do take a look, it is educational if nothing more. She is an equine body worker as well and the bio mechanics of the horse is paramount. X
 
It definitely doesn't sit right on the pony. 'Perched' is a good description. I'd be sending it back. It can be a real pain in the backside sometimes, finding the right saddle for both you and the horse, but it really isn't helped if your saddle fitter is suggesting you trial the wrong saddle (and charges you for the privilege, too.)
 
I have a Native Pony saddle for my connie. I took photos of him from every angle, plus ones of his current saddle and of me sat on it. Also took several of him with the bendy measure on his withers, his rib cage and along his spine, which I traced onto paper. All sent to the Native Pony saddle co. who sent me the Glen WH I had seen, they told me it would need to bed in to his shape but I have to say it was trialled the next day at the breed show on the flat and WH and I kept it, very happy with it 7 years down the line!
 
The gullet is Definately too narrow. Taking flock out or putting more in wont help the problem.

It would be like wearing ice skates that are too small, putting on thin socks won't help neither would getting a pair of super thick ones. Either way your feet would be killing you after wearing them.

The balance of the seat also looks really bad. If you sat in that saddle and tried to get in a good position, the saddle would push your seat towards the cantle (and your pretty boys lower back) causing more discomfort.

It sucks you have had to spend so much on saddle fitters. :( I hope you find a good one soon!
 
Thanks all! I can't quote on my phone (just got up to sort boys out) but I will return the saddle ASAP. Will try ideal and strada saddles and see what they say. :)
 
Gosh, I didn't realise HHO had so many sadle fitting experts!!!

Personally, I'd be raiding hte issue with the qualified saddle fitter who fitted the saddle in the first place. I assume you rode in it to begin with??? And as you had a week to ride in it again have plenty of time to try it out and go back to them with your concerns?!?

I really can't see how taking a couple of photos and posting them online for armchair experts to comment on can be the best way forwards???
 
I'm really sorry that you're not happy with your saddle shadowboy. I could get into the technical aspects of the fit - I usually disagree with most people on the board when it comes to saddles other people have fitted posted in photos - but this one is dear to my heart as it's the company I work for, a fitter I know well, and a model that I fit frequently.

The saddle needs girthing correctly and riding on to bed it in a little, to give you a full idea of whether you both will like it - the fit IS fine, believe me, though sometimes a tweak is needed once you've ridden in it a few times, and if you let the fitter know really quickly, he'll pop back out and sort that, no question.

He has also offered to come and pick the saddle up, you won't even have to send it back for your refund. though he is obviously rather sad that you've chosen to listen to unqualifed opinions, on what is a tricky pony to fit, on a public board like this, rather than go back to him and question him. He is a vastly experienced and qualifed saddle fitter, with 25 years behind him.

We only have so many WH models - he brought most of them but the trees weren't right. The Show Hunter alternatives were too straight cut though the tree was right. We can in fact put a WH flap on a SH tree, not a problem as a special order. He genuinely thinks you should ride in a larger seat size, and the pony CAN take it - only he has actually felt where the rear rib is. which is NOT possible to tell from a photo. Much of the criticism on here is based on photos that are too dark to tell you anything, and a lot of info from a video of a saddle that isn't girthed, which again can't tell you anything.

I understand why people think the saddle looks wrong - you can't fit all horses in the same way, and the wide twist wide seat approach just doesn't work for ponies like this, this is an awesome tree for ponies this shape, and is very flat. Our unusual approach works where many others fail, and you have had several fail!

I would normally have waded in a lot earlier to dispute the criticism of the fit (there is an awful lot of dodgy stuff peddled in this thread as "truth"), but obviously I am part of the company involved and wanted to speak with the fitter and the owner of the company before coming on here. We're really sad that you don't want the saddle but will stand by our refund guarantee. Please call the fitter and he will come and collect the saddle.
 
Armchair experts? What else would you get on a forum? She asked the general public, the general public have looked at the only evidence provided and given their opinions as asked. Not sure what else you expected to happen. Assuming that WE all assume we are right/as good as a saddle fitter/qualified is just silly - in my opinion. Nobody but saddle fitters have claimed to be saddle fitters and so op got what she asked for - our opinion.
 
sbloom said:
The saddle needs girthing correctly and riding on to bed it in a little, to give you a full idea of whether you both will like it - the fit IS fine, believe me, though sometimes a tweak is needed once you've ridden in it a few times.

This sounds like a shoe sales person selling a pair of too tight shoes and assuring the buyer that they will stretch once worn.

We only have so many WH models - he brought most of them but the trees weren't right. The Show Hunter alternatives were too straight cut though the tree was right. We can in fact put a WH flap on a SH tree, not a problem as a special order.

This makes it sound that you fitted the horse with the best match you had in stock in order to secure the deal as opposed to advising the client that you could not provide a saddle which was ideally suited to the horses conformation.

It's a lovely saddle and again I'm no expert but it does look wrong on the horses back.
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I am not going to comment on the fit of the saddle but agree that it just doesn`t look right on the pony in question. The custom one sounds like it would work tho but may be lots of £££?

I have a similar shaped pony and have an Ideal working hunter for him. Might be worth looking at these as they have a much flatter profile and don`t look perched. They are extremely popular in the NF world :D I have done a bit of everything in mine, feel very secure and never come off :toucheswoodfrantically: Had it coming up five years and it still looks like new.

A new one is around £6-700 and often with free fitting.
 
Fitting these shapes is tricky - I totally understand why you think the saddle is too narrow, I disagree - the tree shape is neat the top and it works where so many others don't. Please witness the remedial fits we do that are successful, and where muscle repairs FAST. Please do not accuse me of being like a shoe salesman. I frequently disagree with most posters on here who, on many threads like this, cry out that the saddle is too narrow because they see plenty of clearance. I get OPs mailing me afterwards telling me I was right. Diagnosing tree width through clearance and too-dark photos is not correct and not fair.

In this case putting on a tree that is much wider through the top can lead to instabiliy, you know, all those posts where the saddle moves around...

I KNOW it's counterintuitive, but that's why I'm a trained fitter with several years experience, it's not always totally logical - there is both art and science to this job. Plus static fit ie how it looks in photos, tells you less than half what you need to know, dynamic fit is crucial.

And no, the fitter feels that he had the agreement that the customer felt this was a suitable saddle, and trust me, this fitter has no crafty sales techniques, almost the opposite. Many people use this for open workers as our WH saddles are very straight cut and they prefer a neat GP like this to be more comfortable with short stirrups.

We just ask that if you have a "wobble" after you buy it, and wonder if there were other options, you call us. We can only go on what you tell us, and believe me, what you tell us you want and what you end up liking or needing can be very different, plus people do change their minds! It's a lot of money to spend on something and we totally understand that some people will want reassurance.

We generally charge a maxiumum of £50 to put a different flap on a given tree which I don't think is too steep as it can't be done in the batches of "regular" saddles. People are generally keen to have a saddle on the day, so if there is something that fits the horse, does the right job and the rider likes it, then they have it on the day, even if a custom option was available and MIGHT have been a tiny bit better in terms of flap cut, the rider side of things etc. This is the real world and we try and make horse AND rider happy and to that end will often extend the 7 day trial, especially if the horse has been unable to be ridden because of injury, weather etc.
 
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I think shadow boy your best option is to ask for an extension on the trial. If they are willing to do that and you find the saddle is fine, great, if you don't, go back to them and tell then your concerns, you have lost nothing then. If SB has had bad experiences in the past it is easy to feel paranoid that every fitter is out to get you...

I can see it from both sides as I posted about a saddle which did not fit and got some good advice on here with regards to that which saved me making a costly mistake.

Sbloom is a well respected poster who often gives advice on here for free.
 
Thank you FfionWinnie. Sometimes it feels like I clearly don't know what I'm doing the way people go on on here :D

The saddle IS right for the horse's conformation, I'd imagine that a discussion was had about the SH and the GP (the model she has) that we make as standard on that tree, and she chose the GP. I have no idea if she desperately wanted a saddle on the day, most do, and so chose not to go the custom option if and when offered it. Like all companies we can't possibly make all flaps on all trees, we make what people want, and what looks right. We have just started making, for customer order for now but it's popular, the Phoenix Symphony SH seat (the same tree but deepened seat with round cantle) with the NP Traditional WH flap, might be a possibility.
 
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Question for the OP - did you raise your concerns with the saddler, and ask him to either reassure you, or put things right?

I think I'd want to take that step before deciding that the saddle is all wrong and wanting to return it, on the strength of opinions from a forum board. The saddler is presumably very qualified and experienced, I'd at least want to give him a chance to resolve issues, rather than instantly go along with the opinions of those from a board, whose qualifications and experience were unknown to me. That isn't to say I wouldn't bear them in mind, but I'd want to give the actual expert the chance to resolve things if it were possible.
 
OrangeJob said:
Gosh, I didn't realise HHO had so many sadle fitting experts!!!

Personally, I'd be raiding hte issue with the qualified saddle fitter who fitted the saddle in the first place. I assume you rode in it to begin with??? And as you had a week to ride in it again have plenty of time to try it out and go back to them with your concerns?!?

I really can't see how taking a couple of photos and posting them online for armchair experts to comment on can be the best way forwards???
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But you CAN tell an awful lot about saddle fit from photographs if you know what you are looking for. You can certainly tell if a saddle is wrong. If it looks right from the photographs, then of course you would need someone there on the ground to ensure that it really does fit, but photographs can certainly be used to rule out saddles that clearly do not fit.
 
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