Opinions- does this saddle fit?

[Flame_]

Gosh, I didn't realise HHO had so many sadle fitting experts!!!

Personally, I'd be raiding hte issue with the qualified saddle fitter who fitted the saddle in the first place. I assume you rode in it to begin with??? And as you had a week to ride in it again have plenty of time to try it out and go back to them with your concerns?!?

I really can't see how taking a couple of photos and posting them online for armchair experts to comment on can be the best way forwards???

Given the number of useless, rip-off, lying qualified saddle fitters in the world, I think asking for opinions in a forum is often the best way forward tbh. Trusting them is stupid because the qualification counts for absolutely nothing. Its a worse situation than with vets and farriers, whom while we, as owners, have to take some responsibility for our horse's treatment, at least have high industry standards these days. All sorts of blind lunatics seem to be saddle fitters IME. I'm not saying that's the case here, all I can see is a saddle that's not sitting in quite the right place that could do with being a bit wider, but I'm miffed at being told our opinions don't count because we're not trained saddlers. Many saddle fitters, I'd go so far as to say most of them, are rubbish at saddle fitting!

 

[FfionWinnie]

All sorts of blind lunatics seem to be saddle fitters IME. I'm not saying that's the case here, !

Lol you do make me laugh flame!

 

[Clava]

But you CAN tell an awful lot about saddle fit from photographs if you know what you are looking for. You can certainly tell if a saddle is wrong. If it looks right from the photographs, then of course you would need someone there on the ground to ensure that it really does fit, but photographs can certainly be used to rule out saddles that clearly do not fit.

Exactly and there is also a wealth of knowledge on this board and experience of saddlefitting and saddlefitters. Everyone who owns a horse should know the basics of saddle fit. It always amazes me how the same excuses come out when there is an issue- we didn't have the saddle you wanted in stock and the horse is a very difficult shape to fit, when girthed up correctly it will all be fine...etc...etc...

 

[Clava]

Given the number of useless, rip-off, lying qualified saddle fitters in the world, I think asking for opinions in a forum is often the best way forward tbh. Trusting them is stupid because the qualification counts for absolutely nothing. Its a worse situation than with vets and farriers, whom while we, as owners, have to take some responsibility for our horse's treatment, at least have high industry standards these days. All sorts of blind lunatics seem to be saddle fitters IME. I'm not saying that's the case here, all I can see is a saddle that's not sitting in quite the right place that could do with being a bit wider, but I'm miffed at being told our opinions don't count because we're not trained saddlers. Many saddle fitters, I'd go so far as to say most of them, are rubbish at saddle fitting!

Totally agree.

 

[*hic*]

Gosh, I didn't realise HHO had so many sadle fitting experts!!!

Some of them can even spell saddle

 

[sbloom]

Flame - in many ways I agree with you, but seeing the responses on here to other posts, where I have been pretty much the ONLY one who's been right about a saddle fitting issue, it is way too easy to get it wrong. And we only have photos that are much too dark to see properly - you can't see the angle of the tree points, looking at the front facings (beading) is not the same as looking at the tree angles. The tree is neat at the top and has a lot fo clearand and as I've already said, I TOTALLY understand why it leads to people thinking it's too narrow, I see it all the time in these threads.

 

[Flame_]

Lol you do make me laugh flame!

Oh, thank you. Its something that really annoys me though. So much money being invested and all the damage that wrong saddles can do to horses yet we're no further along with the people selling them as far as I can see.

 

[PandorasJar]

Some of them can even spell saddle

I've just snorted at work. Thanks for that Dee

 

[Clava]

Flame - in many ways I agree with you, but seeing the responses on here to other posts, where I have been pretty much the ONLY one who's been right about a saddle fitting issue, it is way too easy to get it wrong. .

How modest of you.

 

[Flame_]

Flame - in many ways I agree with you, but seeing the responses on here to other posts, where I have been pretty much the ONLY one who's been right about a saddle fitting issue, it is way too easy to get it wrong. And we only have photos that are much too dark to see properly - you can't see the angle of the tree points, looking at the front facings (beading) is not the same as looking at the tree angles. The tree is neat at the top and has a lot fo clearand and as I've already said, I TOTALLY understand why it leads to people thinking it's too narrow,

Fair enough, but if it isn't too narrow, it isn't right a different way. The first rule of saddles is that they should look right on the horse, just right, before breaking it down more than that. Is it too deep seated? Maybe the panels are too thick? It is perched on top of the pony. It probably fits well enough not to do any harm but for £££s you want a saddle that makes you think "this is it", not, "I'm sure this isn't right, I need to ask everyone on HHO".

 

[Wagtail]

I had two new liveries arrive on my yard a few years ago. They were friends who moved here together. They had both used the same qualified saddle fitter. I was horrified when I came to school their horses and was presented with their (very expensive) saddles. The mare wore mainly her dressage saddle which actually fitted her well. It was a wide fit, and I had no issues with it. Her back was also fine. However, when I went to use her GP (fitted at the same time by the same saddle fitter), I found that it was a MEDIUM fitting . Now I know that makes of saddle can vary in what they consider to be a medium, or a wide etc, but this saddle tipped right back when it was placed on her as the tree was far too narrow.

The gelding was in a sorry way. When I first removed his rugs I was presented with a saddle shaped indentation in his back. He was 18 years old and the amount of muscle wastage was the result of many years in a saddle that was too narrow. Sure enough, his saddle was a 'NARROW/MEDIUM fit'. To my eyes he was at least a medium wide but with very pronounced wither pockets. Owner said he would not be schooled as he swished his tail etc and clearly didn't like it. I lent her my wide saddle and schooled him in that, with no issues.

I was further disappointed by the saddler that we booked to fit him with a new saddle. On walking into the gelding's stable he pronounced 'Oh a NARROW horse!' It took me some time to persuade him that this horse was not narrow at all and that he had muscle wastage. If I hadn't have been there, he would have fitted him with another saddle that was too narrow. As it was, he took my request on board and finally agreed with me. He fitted a saddle with a med/wide tree and adjusted the flocking. £ months later, the saddle was too tight and he took another template of his back and he had gained two inches on each side! The extra flocking was removed and the saddle has remained a good fit. So this is why I find it hard to trust saddlers and think it is important that owners arm themselves with a basic knowledge of saddle fitting.

 

[Copperpot]

I hate getting a new saddle. For years despite my reservations my horse was fitted in a medium narrow. I felt it was too tight but was told it fitted, by several saddle fitters. Finally found a lady that talked sense and fitted him in a medium wide and his dents behind his withers improved. As soon as some saddlers see high withers they fit a too narrow saddle to clear them. New horse is short coupled, big shoulders, hardly any wither and I ended up getting a new Wow for him after trying several other makes.

 

[Jools1234]

i asked my vet for reccommendations on saddle fitters, i trust his judgement in this area as his wife competes at prix st george and he does intermediate eventing (the only equine vet i have dealt with that actually rides horses). his reply was 'there is only one saddle fitter and that is a****** b*********, the rest are saddle sellers', obviously that is in our area and does not cover the whole country. the master saddler he suggested does not sell saddles any more but comes out and looks at the horse takes measurements and sends you of with names of saddles that in his experience will be or can be adjusted to be the best fit for your horse. it a convoluted way of doing it but he reckons most people buy second hand of the internet now and at least he is not ripping anyone of.

 

[Balexis]

I want to add my experience of using Clive as a fitter.

I feel your pain regarding saddles and fitting issues. Last year I had 4 fitters out. I wasn’t happy with my horses GP saddle, initially I called out the person who fitted it (who I bought it from) and he said the fit was ok, but we could get something that fitted better. But to only hack in the meantime (says alot about just how ‘fine’ the fit was...). He then didn’t have anything in stock and was only interested if he could sell me a new saddle – specifically a T8 – But I wanted to show so really wanted a leather saddle. I then tried another chap who told me the saddle fitted and the reason it felt like it was moving when I rode was because I was a novice rider with not a very good seat and had my stirrups too short.... (so I paid £40 to have my confidence knocked!!) Another fitter told me the saddle was ok but could be made better with some extra flocking but I wasn’t entirely convinced by it so didn’t go ahead. At least that fitter brought a truck load of saddles with them and we tried them ALL on my mare NONE of which we even got to the stage where we wanted to put me on board! My instructor and I also tried nearly all the saddles on the yard on (about 30!) and NOTHING was suitable.
In the meantime my horse had no muscle building up underneath or behind the saddle and weak hindquarters. She often had stiffness in these areas and had very strong muscle spasms in the muscles behind the saddle when my physio palpated the area. We also hit a wall schooling, mare could not bend – she is not a naughty horse, just a young green horse and she was trying but she was clearly blocked somewhere. Mare is very sensitive though!

On a whim I borrowed a silhouette show saddle from a friend to trial (she was selling it) and I got Clive Whereatt out and asked him to bring a load of suitable saddles with him, including native pony company (because IF nothing else fitted I would get a new saddle made) Clive came out and looked at the GP on the horse and then told me exactly what the problems with the fit were and what they would do to her and to me whilst riding – he was absolutely spot on. I hadn’t told him anything and nor had he colluded with my physio! He then looked at the silhouette on her and smiled and said it was a lovely fit to start with! It needed tweaking with extra flocking and the like but the difference in my mare straight away was amazing. He watched me ride in the saddle and watched the horse and saw how she moved in relation to the saddle etc. He then took saddle away and reflocked accordingly. He asked me if I was happy with the saddle and if I liked riding in it – I was it’s a lovely saddle! And he said ‘right then there’s no need to try the ones I brought on her’. Now, he could have told me that didn’t fit or to try some of his or even that she needed the NPS company saddle – BUT he didn’t. We did try a Jeffries falcon hawk event on her as I was keen on having a show saddle and something for jumping.

He returned the saddle a week later as he wanted to watch me ride in it – The mare was exceptionally different, totally happy, less anxious and apprehensive, free under the saddle and in her hindquarters and started to move under saddle as she did in hand or in the field! The difference was amazing. She also started to bend much better! He did a few minor tweaks after watching me ride and that was that. I then asked to ride in the Jeffries – I was all geared up to buy that saddle there and then! BUT he watched me ride in it and said that my horse was NOT as comfortable or happy in that saddle as she was in the silhouette. He suggested I did NOT buy the jeffries saddle!

My horse improved no end and her schooling came on leaps and bounds. The physio was also extremely pleased as when she visited 1-2 months after I had the saddle the mare was no longer sore and had no spasms and was signed off physio (she had been seen regularly since January!) She now has good muscle development and topline and stronger hind quarters and looks totally different.

I have since had 2 saddle checks for that saddle with Clive. He came out in September when I was bringing my horse back into work after a month off due to an abscess – all was well with the saddle. I called him out again at the beginning of the month as I felt the saddle was not fitting as well as it had and my mare was not as happy as she had been. Well she had dropped 20kg and was now the lightest she had ever been since I have had her – and she had muscled up in places so was a different base frame. Clive looked at the saddle on her and said it needed adjusting, he went and did that then asked me to ride her briefly. He said he was surprised at how huge her movement is, it was much bigger than he remembered! And this actually played a big role in the fit. He went and did some more flocking. And that was it – all done! Mare much happier!

So that is my experience. I think everyone experiences things and people in different ways. But I wanted to share this so that people could see that my view is that this person had the opportunity to make me part with vast amounts of money but at each opportunity he didn’t take that option. He took a lot of time talking to me and looking at my horse and explaining why things didn’t work for her, and what things DID/would work for her. Basically I don’t think he is a charlatan or a dodgy sales person!

For me the proof is in the pudding – basically my horse has improved massively in her schooling and her physical development. So that with the lack of making money off me has meant that I have put my trust in this fitter. I do think people can have bad days and good fitters do/can get things wrong. But I think it is important that you explain your concerns to the fitter and you can work around them.

I think what is crucial now is to decide if you actually like the saddle. You might not like it! And that is perfectly valid I think, some saddles just don’t work for some people or for combinations of horses/people. I would speak to the fitter and ask to extend the trial explaining the weather and then decide if you like it. If you have concerns then please speak to the fitter. Perhaps it is just not the saddle for you?

 

[Balexis]

Oh I wanted to add that I would also get saddles checked regularly too. Even for an older horse in consistent work I would expect to get the saddle looked at at least twice a year. (Especially if I didn't feel confident to monitor it myself.)

 

[ds2107]

Are people actually bothering to read sbloom's informative replies about this particular type of saddle she fits for a living?
These kind of doubts are only going to be resolved by discussing with the saddler who has seen the horse. If OP decides to give the saddle back as suggested by many, she will be missing out on one of few saddles actually designed for her type of (lovely) horse.

 

[Firewell]

OP I think at the end of the day you have to go with your instincts. Although it can be helpful it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks. The saddle people say it fits, the people on here say it doesn't. However you are the one potentially about to spend £1000 on a saddle you don't feel is right. IMO if something doesn't feel right with your own horse that you know well then it is probably because it isn't right!
Personally I would't be happy with the saddle it doesn't look like it suits the pony to me but you don't have to listen to my opinion .
I would keep looking untill you find one that a saddler says fits AND that you are 100% happy with. No little voices in your head saying 'is that meant to be like that?'. You will find one promise, your pony isn't impossible to fit. Just trust yourself.

 

[sbloom]

I think the main thing we're seeing here is purchase fear - when you've been burned with previous saddle purchases, or have been mucked around by fitters, it's hard to know where to turn. The OP had a passing comment made to her, on another thread, about how a saddle should fit (which I didn't agree with either) and that has made her panic, somewhat understandably.

I'm hoping OP comes back to tell us her decision.

And sorry I offended you Clava, I have several pms from people who couldn't find the energy to come back and update these types of threads (or too terrified of the backlash of going against HHOers advice perhaps!) but who wanted to tell me that I was right in what I had said about their saddle. They had had their fitter out who had made exact same correction I had suggested.

The lady who owns the company and who trained me is even better at ascertaining fit from photos than I am, we work as a team. She will have been responsible for sending the Glen out to the poster who was early on the in the thread.

 

[Hippona]

I have a Native Pony saddle for my highland....not the same as the one in the pics, it is slightly more straighter cut.....

Initially I thought it looked perched. It isn't...it somehow manages to give nice clearance over a small wither, the panels fit snugly accross a wide flat back and behind the shoulder. It doesnt move or wobble and now my little highland has a longer stride than my friends Cleveland Bay. Its very comfy and puts you in a great position.

OP...I would give the saddle a fair trial, see what your pony tells you.

 

[showpony]

Don't know if this has been mentioned as dont have time to read through all the pages BUT for that sort of money would you not have one custom made? I went through 3 before giving up & having my Albion custom made & best desision I made!

 

[Holly Hocks]

I think the main thing we're seeing here is purchase fear - when you've been burned with previous saddle purchases, or have been mucked around by fitters, it's hard to know where to turn.

I do agree with this to a certain extent. I had two saddles made to measure for my horses a few years ago. About a year ago I had a different saddler out who took the saddles away to be altered - widened the gullet and put some more flocking in to adjust them. I still wasn't happy with it, and in the end got another saddler out who promptly told me that this other saddler had ruined the saddles, there was way to much flocking in it (it really was rock hard) and in no way did it fit my horse.
I ended up buying a Bates dressage (gorgeous saddle) - the broncing didn't stop and it's now emerged that she's had an abscess brewing for quite a few months which burst last week, which with hindsight has probably been the problem all along!!!! I've paid £1200 for a saddle which I probably didn't need and made ****** all difference to the horse. HOWEVER - the most recent saddler was right - when he pointed out the issues and the fact that my horse was in a narrow/med saddle when in fact she is a wide, I am still happy that I made the choice to change my saddle - even though it wasn't the issue with the broncing!! (Very expensive abscess though!)

 

[shadowboy]

I havent had time to read all answers as i am on my lunch break at work. BUT....

I have had soooo many incidents with master saddlers and fitters. Who else was I meant to ask? I asked on here as there are some people here that do much of their own fitting and very successfully. They can be detatched from the item they are selling. The seller whatever they say always wants the sale- afterall thats where their income comes from. If the responses had been mixed then I would have called the fitter back. But to be honest I wanted other opinions which confirmed my gut instinct. I KNOW my pony and moving away from my hand with ears back (as you can see in the photo) is not like him. Also I was concerned that I had issues 'placing' the saddle. I've never had that- wherever I put it on his back felt wrong. Ive been a horse owner since I was 8 years old (Im now 28- so i do know how to tack up) but I just couldnt get it in the right place - it felt on or tight behind the shoulder, in my attempt to get it more comfortable I tried pushing the saddle back but still couldnt get it to feel free.

The other reason I didnt call the saddler back until today was because he promised to ring me monday morning regarding the possibility of another saddle as he knew I wasnt 100% at the time. Did he call - no! So I thought he was just like the previous 4 saddlers-once hed made a sale the client was forgotten!

Finally its over £1000! I think I have a right to question that kind of spend? And surely I can ask who I want? No bad things were mentioned about the fitter or the company other than I was dissapointed that I was told the fitter would bring a 'range' of saddles- which did not materialise.

 

[shadowboy]

I want to add my experience of using Clive as a fitter.

On a whim I borrowed a silhouette show saddle from a friend to trial (she was selling it) and I got Clive Whereatt out and asked him to bring a load of suitable saddles with him, including native pony company (because IF nothing else fitted I would get a new saddle made) Clive came out and looked at the GP on the horse and then told me exactly what the problems with the fit were and what they would do to her and to me whilst riding – he was absolutely spot on.
He returned the saddle a week later as he wanted to watch me ride in it – The mare was exceptionally different, totally happy, less anxious and apprehensive, free under the saddle and in her hindquarters and started to move under saddle as she did in hand or in the field! The difference was amazing. She also started to bend much better! He did a few minor tweaks after watching me ride and that was that. I then asked to ride in the Jeffries – I was all geared up to buy that saddle there and then! BUT he watched me ride in it and said that my horse was NOT as comfortable or happy in that saddle as she was in the silhouette. He suggested I did NOT buy the jeffries saddle!

My horse improved no end and her schooling came on leaps and bounds. The physio was also extremely pleased as when she visited 1-2 months after I had the saddle the mare was no longer sore and had no spasms and was signed off physio (she had been seen regularly since January!) She now has good muscle development and topline and stronger hind quarters and looks totally different.

I have since had 2 saddle checks for that saddle with Clive. He came out in September when I was bringing my horse back into work after a month off due to an abscess – all was well with the saddle. I called him out again at the beginning of the month as I felt the saddle was not fitting as well as it had and my mare was not as happy as she had been. Well she had dropped 20kg and was now the lightest she had ever been since I have had her – and she had muscled up in places so was a different base frame. Clive looked at the saddle on her and said it needed adjusting, he went and did that then asked me to ride her briefly. He said he was surprised at how huge her movement is, it was much bigger than he remembered! And this actually played a big role in the fit. He went and did some more flocking. And that was it – all done! Mare much happier!

For me the proof is in the pudding – basically my horse has improved massively in her schooling and her physical development. So that with the lack of making money off me has meant that I have put my trust in this fitter. I do think people can have bad days and good fitters do/can get things wrong. But I think it is important that you explain your concerns to the fitter and you can work around them.

You see the pony went exactly as it has done in poorly fitting saddles- there was no improvement in way of going in the saddle I've got. So if I take what you've said then surely this saddle also doesnt fit?

 

[shadowboy]

Fair enough, but if it isn't too narrow, it isn't right a different way. The first rule of saddles is that they should look right on the horse, just right, before breaking it down more than that. Is it too deep seated? Maybe the panels are too thick? It is perched on top of the pony. It probably fits well enough not to do any harm but for £££s you want a saddle that makes you think "this is it", not, "I'm sure this isn't right, I need to ask everyone on HHO".

This ^^^^ is how I felt last night

 

[*hic*]

You see the pony went exactly as it has done in poorly fitting saddles- there was no improvement in way of going in the saddle I've got. So if I take what you've said then surely this saddle also doesnt fit?

Does the pony go better bareback than in the saddles you've tried so far? If the answer is no then you wouldn't expect much difference with a better fitting saddle IMHO.

edited to add: That doesn't read very well! what I mean to say is that saddle fit seems to make lots of immediate difference to some horses, others don't seem to be as sensitive. If yours isn't sensitive then you might well not feel much difference.

 

[shadowboy]

No idea I've never schooled bareback he's too spooky!!!

 

[Rouletterose]

The saddle doesn't fit it is an A frame and the angle of the points is much too upright that's why it feels tight behind the shoulder, it needs to be a wider angle, it doesn't match the angle of the shoulder, go with your gut feeling, you know it doesn't fit.

 

[Balexis]

1) It depends on how your horse normally moves I guess? Mine is a NF x TB (her NF father is a big moving NF) and she has big movement and always showed this in the field, on the lunge in hand and flashes of it undersaddle. But she always felt restricted under saddle. Until the saddle clive fitted for her.

What is your guy like on the lunge or in the field?

2) If Clive had wanted he could have made me part with considerable amounts of cash - telling me the silhouette which I didn't buy from him didn't fit my horse and suggesting one of the second hands he had brought with him OR having a NPC one made. And second occasion was with the Jeffries!

I am extremely skeptical of people too - especially fitters after all of my bad experiences.

I think all I am saying here is you need to give the saddle time - some horses may instantly settle and show difference, others may not! Some may have remembered issues and may need t a few sessions schooling to relax and realise things don't hurt or tweak anymore. Also it depends on the type of work horse is in. Mine has had 3 weeks off now due to mud fever, lost shoes etc. She currently goes like a bag of spanners so if I had had my saddle fitted before I got back on after her time off I would be concerned thinking it was that - but actually this is just what she is like after time off. She loses her suppleness pretty quickly!

 

[MiaBella]

But to be honest I wanted other opinions which confirmed my gut instinct. I KNOW my pony and moving away from my hand with ears back (as you can see in the photo) is not like him. Also I was concerned that I had issues 'placing' the saddle.

I understand your wanting other opinions, but so far I think most posts have disagreed with each other.

Some say the width is fine, other say too narrow, some say the panels are fine, others say not, some say the tree is totally wrong, others not, some say the saddle is too long, others not, some say your girth is wrong, others not, some say it looks like it could be flocked to be a better fit, others not. Only a couple have asked to see the pony move in the saddle.

How can you tell if a saddle fits without seeing the rider ride in the saddle?

At the end of the day you have presented a picture of a pony with a new saddle stood still (in the dark). And you asked for opinions as you were not sure it fitted, I think if you had posted the same picture saying how happy you were with your new saddle, half of those saying it didn't fit would have instead said how wonderful it looked (the other half would have still said it didn't fit and still disagreed on how it didn't fit).

So then it turns out that you haven't asked the fitter if you can extend the trial due to the weather because the fitter didn't call you on Monday when you were expecting them to call?

As you say, its a lot of money to spend and if you aren't happy then don't spend it. Not every saddle will suit every horse and rider (even if the fit is exactly right), there have been a few other suggestions on this thread (some apparently that will definitely fit ) so maybe you need to keep on looking?

 

[Clava]

I think all I am saying here is you need to give the saddle time -!

I believe in following your gut feeling, and giving a saddle time when you "know" it isn't right can be a terrible mistake.