Opinions gratefully recieved.. copd - when to put to sleep

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TooManyCobs

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Hi... i'm interested in people’s thoughts and opinions on putting a horse to sleep before they are critically ill or overtly suffering. I've been to and fro on where my own moral standing is on this issue, despite previously believing I was clear on the matter. It’s an emotive subject and I don’t want any unpleasantness, just rational thoughts that I can add to my own debate.

My horse (16yo hacking gelding) has had COPD for about 6 years now. It started with allergy to pollen, now its hay, straw, pollen, general dust and bonfire smoke. Ventupulmin doesn’t work anymore, he can’t have inhalers as he’s terrified of them, steroids are short term help only as he’s had laminitis, so basically we're left with antibiotics when he gets chest infections, which is becoming ever more frequent, and unsurprisingly they are becoming less effective for him. He has a mucus thinner as an interim measure when he starts to get wheezy.

He also has arthritis in his shoulder and hock.

This winter was a bad winter, he needed steroids and antibiotics, and he was heaving even with very soaked hay. I prayed that once the grass arrived he'd have respite, and a low grade reaction to the pollen, but the opposite has been the case and he's started wheezing and headshaking right from the first primrose. We live in the heart of agricultural land and the rape seed is just getting going, and will be around for some time yet. That should roll us nicely into autumn when I have to get the hay out again. He had been enjoying going for quiet hacks, mainly walking, and waited by the gate to go out.

To add to his problems his hock and shoulder have recently given him evident problems when ridden - to the point that the last ride I got off and had to walk him home lame, so obviously, I’ve stopped riding him. At this point i'm sure that he's retired from work.

I can give him Bute for comfort in his joints, and I can keep going with the COPD, but should I? That’s the question I keep asking. Is it wrong to euthanize a horse who is still content at pasture (he still plays, eats, grooms and socialises) or is it wrong to stand by and watch him deteriorate until he’s actually suffering. More than any horse I’ve had he’s very dignified and stoic. I want him to keep his dignity.

Sorry for the long post, opinions gratefully received.
 
Nothing specific to offer about COPD, except I'm sorry for you both. But I have had to deal with several who had progressive diseases. I like to think that in each case I had them pts before they started to suffer...think arthritis, PPID, etc. It is damned hard though. The morning after I made the arrangements for the last one, she came galloping down the hill like a 2 yo to greet me. I had to think hard. It didn't help when the man arrived to do the job and asked what was wrong with her! But the saying is true. Better a week too early than a moment too late. You'll know in your heart. Hugs x
 
I always try to go with quality of life, rather than quantity. I'm sure you know the saying about 'better a week too soon, than a day too late', especially if you want him to go with dignity.

It's never an easy decision though.
 
I'm sorry you're having to face this this awful decision.

In your position I would call it a day sooner rather than later. There are lots of conditons that currently cause him pain, discomfort or serious annoyance, and sadly that will only get worse. Whilst he may still enjoy elements of his life for me personally if my horse was regularly enduring such pain and discomfort and I had no hope of fixing it that would be enough to say goodbye. After all, when his shoulder is hurting him and his breathing is distressing him he can't think like an ill person might 'at least I can look forward to x or y' - he just knows the suffering.

In the wild nature would take its course and a predator would likely take such a horse down as it was weakened but before it deteriorated too far - they're not designed to slowly decline until there's no option left.

IMHO it is never cruel to give a treasured horse a swift and dignified ending. It is a final kindess.

I say all this without judgement as only you know your horse and what is right, but you said you would welcome opinions so this is my opinion on what I would do. Wishing you all the best whatever you decide and the strength to cope with the decision whatever it may be.
 
ghostie said:
I'm sorry you're having to face this this awful decision.

In your position I would call it a day sooner rather than later. There are lots of conditons that currently cause him pain, discomfort or serious annoyance, and sadly that will only get worse. Whilst he may still enjoy elements of his life for me personally if my horse was regularly enduring such pain and discomfort and I had no hope of fixing it that would be enough to say goodbye. After all, when his shoulder is hurting him and his breathing is distressing him he can't think like an ill person might 'at least I can look forward to x or y' - he just knows the suffering.

In the wild nature would take its course and a predator would likely take such a horse down as it was weakened but before it deteriorated too far - they're not designed to slowly decline until there's no option left.

IMHO it is never cruel to give a treasured horse a swift and dignified ending. It is a final kindess.

I say all this without judgement as only you know your horse and what is right, but you said you would welcome opinions so this is my opinion on what I would do. Wishing you all the best whatever you decide and the strength to cope with the decision whatever it may be.
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This as above... but as a short term possible help, what about feeding local honey. It has helped my elderly COPD one. We have a lot of oil seed rape too.
 
So sorry for you, and your horse.

I agree sooner rather than later. Better to say goodbye when he's still enjoying some things than wait until he has no quality of life.

Please don't feel guilty when the time comes, even if you decide that time is very soon. You will be making the kindest and bravest choice.
 
You seem to be asking for a moral direction. I don't think this is a moral issue at this point. Your horse is a horse. He doesn't know what's coming and he doesn't have a sense of dignity to be preserved. You say yourself that he is still content at pasture so that is clearly not the issue. At some point he may deteriorate and make the issue clear-cut but that time is evidently not right now and you can't know when it will be. The question is do YOU want to keep him or not? If you have no interest in doing so since you can't ride him, he's costing you and he can't be rehomed realistically, PTS. If you do, don't. The horse isn't going to hold it against you either way.

Saying that "he can’t have inhalers as he’s terrified of them" is not a valid reason IMO. You can definitely get him over that fear if you work at it so if that is the one thing you've not tried using, you could spend some time working on that first. Assuming you want to keep him. Cause if you don't there really isn't much point - you could give another, younger horse a home instead.
 
Barnacle said:
You seem to be asking for a moral direction. I don't think this is a moral issue at this point. Your horse is a horse. He doesn't know what's coming and he doesn't have a sense of dignity to be preserved. You say yourself that he is still content at pasture so that is clearly not the issue. At some point he may deteriorate and make the issue clear-cut but that time is evidently not right now and you can't know when it will be. The question is do YOU want to keep him or not? If you have no interest in doing so since you can't ride him, he's costing you and he can't be rehomed realistically, PTS. If you do, don't. The horse isn't going to hold it against you either way.

Saying that "he can’t have inhalers as he’s terrified of them" is not a valid reason IMO. You can definitely get him over that fear if you work at it so if that is the one thing you've not tried using, you could spend some time working on that first. Assuming you want to keep him. Cause if you don't there really isn't much point - you could give another, younger horse a home instead.
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I can see the logic in your response here, but I think you are being a little unfair to the OP. The horse is probably not content in his pasture -if he came home lame from his regular hack then the arthritis is causing him discomfort. Horse instinct as a prey animal is to hide discomfort and lameness as much as possible, they are often stoics and will get by as best as they can.

So it's not really down to whether the OP wants to keep him as a field ornament, it's whether the horse is *really* coping with his ailments. OP - I'm with the others who say it's the final gift you can give an old friend, no one would judge you badly for pts before the winter comes, or sooner if he is struggling with his breathing/arthritis before then. You will know, deep in your heart, when it is the right time, and personally I hope I have the courage to let mine go while there is still some sparkle in her eyes, and spring in her feet.
 
I have a retired one who lives out. He will be 12 next month. Whilst he's field sound and happy I will keep him as my pet. Once he's not I will let him go. He's been lame recently in his front feet (retired due to hock issues). I thought maybe it was the beginning of the end so have been thinking about it a lot. Turns out it's something easily fixed but if it was going to be a long term condition which caused him to be uncomfortable most days I would pts.
 
I'm sorry for you. Its a horrible position to be in and I have been on that position myself. Sometimes it is not possible to train a horse to get over fear of inhalers. We tried for a long time and also used professional help. He remained terrified and his reactions used to injure himself and others.

I knew the time had come when his distress just walking around the yard was clear to see and the vet was supportive of pts. I could tell in his eyes the day we did it that the time had come.

Thinking of you.
 
milliepops said:
I can see the logic in your response here, but I think you are being a little unfair to the OP. The horse is probably not content in his pasture -if he came home lame from his regular hack then the arthritis is causing him discomfort. Horse instinct as a prey animal is to hide discomfort and lameness as much as possible, they are often stoics and will get by as best as they can.

So it's not really down to whether the OP wants to keep him as a field ornament, it's whether the horse is *really* coping with his ailments. OP - I'm with the others who say it's the final gift you can give an old friend, no one would judge you badly for pts before the winter comes, or sooner if he is struggling with his breathing/arthritis before then. You will know, deep in your heart, when it is the right time, and personally I hope I have the courage to let mine go while there is still some sparkle in her eyes, and spring in her feet.
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Agree with this. I found Barnacle's post not only harsh but possibly a little passive aggressive.
 
Animals have no concept of tomorrow. They live 95% in the here and now. But we can see tomorrow and unfortunately for your horse, it can only get worse. I had my rising 30 year old mare PTS just over 2 years ago to save her from another long cold, muddy winter and all its hazards and because her arthritis was making things more and more difficult for both of us. In hindsight I should have done it a few months earlier and not "given her the summer" as it turned out to be a not very nice summer for her; more liveries, much younger animals than her companions were put in the field which resulted in overgrazing and as a result she struggled to graze sufficiently and had to be given winter rations throughout, plus she was bullied and badly kicked because she didn't hear or see her attacker and couldn't get out of the way fast enough anyway. The day she went she was still bright and cheerful despite all her aches and pains but stiff and slow around the field and it was obvious she had reached the end of the road. No-one could ever say that it isn't hard and painful for us but to know they have passed gently and with dignity is actually a huge relief.
 
Really feel for you x

For me, it would be whether he has a good quality of life - based on what you have told us I think I would put to sleep, sorry.
 
so he has spent the winter heaving and being ridden?
he is now wheazing and head shaking and his lameness is getting worse?
decision would have been made a while ago for me.

any animal that is struggling to breathe is suffering in my eyes and I would call it time unless it was expected to make a full recovery, my kids first pony has COPD and asthma, she has 3 episodes last year and was fully recovered within 3 days-she is easy to medicate thoough.

for the poster that suggested getting the pony over its issues with inhalers...have you thought that an animal with breathing issues is likely to struggle to breathe more when put under stress so sometimes what could be best for the animal is the same thing that could be worse?
 
Have you tried cetirizine hydrochloride (hay fever pills). It works really well on horses. Just give ten of the tiny pills in his feed. If his COPD is allergy related, then I have never known these pills to fail to improve COPD. Vets don't seem to ever suggest them, but they have worked well on several horses I have cared for.

Personally I won't put a horse to sleep that is happy and content at pasture, but understand that not everyone is in the position to retire these horses.
 
If you are questionning whether you should keep this horse going then I think in your own mind its time to call it a day. You could leave him out in the field, but my vets have said that horses that have led very busy lives (depends on his previous work load) don't do too well when retired as all their joints and ligaments go to pot (not in those words).

It is difficult given your location to expect a horse with COPD to cope and if he can't have an inhaler or steroid injections you honestly don't have a lot left to work with.

I am sorry for the decision, it must be very hard for you xx
 
Thank you all for kind words of support and sharing your thoughts on a difficult subject.

Barnacle - He was my first horse, and of the 12 years i've owned him he has not been 'useful' for 6 years and has only been well enough to hack, but he has stayed in my care as i owe him the sureity of a secure future and peaceful end. I adore him, he can stay as a pet if he'd field sound and happy, but the question arose as i start to see his quality of life slowly reduce, and as both the arthiitis and copd are progressive, i know each passing season will ebb away the remaining quality. My debate is not if i can afford to (or want to) keep him as a pet (which i can and do) - but if it is kinder to end his life before he starts severe suffering.

All other responses have helped - my instinct is to let him go. The exact timing i'm not sure, its a horrible decsion to make for him. For the moment he's turned out with my 20yo shetland, away from the excitment of the youngsters, with enough bute to keep him comfortable. My heart breaks at the thought - my horses are my world, but i have never had horses without having him.

Thanks again, i appreciate the time taken to respond. Wishing you all the best, especially those who have their own difficult decisions looming.
 
In addition to the above as I missed page two (head not screwed on)
Twiggy2 – he’s never been ridden when mid-flare up, only gentle hacks when he can cope with them, and while he is keen to do them. Any sign of laboured breathing when ridden and he’s returned to pasture to recuperate until flare up has died down and then we try again once he’s improved, and only if he enjoys he outing.

Regarding the comments on inhalers – I don’t believe it’s fair to terrorise him with something that he is petrified of, even in the name of training of acceptance, and I decided early on that better to be pts than that.

Wagtail – thanks for the hay fever tablet suggestion, I did try a few years back, but saw no noticeable improvement, perhaps worth another try, certainly cant do any harm while i get my head round the decision.

Thanks all x
 
No COPD experience (well none that's horse related anyway!) but my prev horse had arthritis. We managed it for about 6 years with bute and then joint injections but he got to the point where he was lame in field even on a high dose of bute and he was struggling to get out of the way of one of the others came making faces at him and he couldn't play any more. He also lost a lot of weight and I suspect had other problems brewing. I could have fully worked up the weight loss and the being slightly depressed (my money was on cushings or possibly liver issues from his long term bute use) but at the end of the day I'd still have had a horse who I couldn't keep field sound. It killed me watching him starting to struggle and I didn't want it to get to the point where he couldn't get up when he laid down (he was already quite stiff and sometimes needed a few attempts) so I had him PTS. Would have given anything not to have had to make that choice as he wasn't an old horse compared to some and I'd give anything to still have him here overseeing things (even just retired and hanging out in the field) but it wouldn't have been in his best interests
 
TooManyCobs said:
My heart breaks at the thought - my horses are my world, but i have never had horses without having him.
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On many levels it is a horrible decision to make, I recently had a very much loved lurcher put to sleep and the thought and memories still make me very emotional at times, but and it is the biggest but I am still so relieved that it was possible for me to make the decision to prevent suffering for her. It creates my overriding feeling of relief that we did not have to end her last few months or even years trying to stay one step ahead of her pain, my heart is filled with good memories and happy times and the overwhelming feeling that I did the right thing at the right time.

I only wish we had been able to do the same thing for people in my life who have had to waste away unable to communicate at the end, with no ability to eat or lift their heads let alone rise from their beds. Memories of these loved ones are clouded by how they were let down at the end-I have an ability with my animals to treat them right and fair and at the end that means placing my heart and emotions to one side whilst they are released from what ever ails them, when leaving that place I picked up my heart and fall apart for however long it takes but walk away with the overriding sense that we have done what needed to be done and was in the animals best interest.

So many on here have experience of what you are going through and it is a place that offers so much support in difficult times-I for one am thinking of you.
 
Starbuck said:
I could tell in his eyes the day we did it that the time had come.
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I honestly belive in this. They let us know when it is time to let them go. As said they try to hide pain so overall could seem fine, but the eye will give away just how they are feeling. Others may disagree, which is fine, but in my experience the eye has always said what the horse can't.

This is a very tough decision and my heart goes out to you having to make it. Trust that whatever decison you make will be right for you and him. Thinking of you and your boy x
 
I don't think I need to add anything further to what has gone before but just wanted to say I am thinking of you, it really is a heart breaking situation to be in.
 
My 16yr old gelding has allergic airways disease, so similar to your boy. Have you gone down the full bucket mask type inhaler route? You can do it at a distance so youre safe and its attached to the horse. But they are about £500... Mine is on inhalers and is managing great on them, they're really useful when they're having an attack in getting them under control. But I have said since he was diagnosed, when I cant contol it and hes had more bad days than good over 2 weeks he'll be PTS. Its horrible to watch and I really do sympathise. So sorry for you
 
TooManyCobs said:
Hi... i'm interested in people’s thoughts and opinions on putting a horse to sleep before they are critically ill or overtly suffering. I've been to and fro on where my own moral standing is on this issue, despite previously believing I was clear on the matter. It’s an emotive subject and I don’t want any unpleasantness, just rational thoughts that I can add to my own debate.

My horse (16yo hacking gelding) has had COPD for about 6 years now. It started with allergy to pollen, now its hay, straw, pollen, general dust and bonfire smoke. Ventupulmin doesn’t work anymore, he can’t have inhalers as he’s terrified of them, steroids are short term help only as he’s had laminitis, so basically we're left with antibiotics when he gets chest infections, which is becoming ever more frequent, and unsurprisingly they are becoming less effective for him. He has a mucus thinner as an interim measure when he starts to get wheezy.

He also has arthritis in his shoulder and hock.

This winter was a bad winter, he needed steroids and antibiotics, and he was heaving even with very soaked hay. I prayed that once the grass arrived he'd have respite, and a low grade reaction to the pollen, but the opposite has been the case and he's started wheezing and headshaking right from the first primrose. We live in the heart of agricultural land and the rape seed is just getting going, and will be around for some time yet. That should roll us nicely into autumn when I have to get the hay out again. He had been enjoying going for quiet hacks, mainly walking, and waited by the gate to go out.

To add to his problems his hock and shoulder have recently given him evident problems when ridden - to the point that the last ride I got off and had to walk him home lame, so obviously, I’ve stopped riding him. At this point i'm sure that he's retired from work.

I can give him Bute for comfort in his joints, and I can keep going with the COPD, but should I? That’s the question I keep asking. Is it wrong to euthanize a horse who is still content at pasture (he still plays, eats, grooms and socialises) or is it wrong to stand by and watch him deteriorate until he’s actually suffering. More than any horse I’ve had he’s very dignified and stoic. I want him to keep his dignity.

Sorry for the long post, opinions gratefully received.
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Can you desensitize him to an Inhaler ???
use a nose net
get stable spray
supplements Eucalyptus

My mare had asthma and needed inhaler
 
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