Opinions on this foot please? I'm rubbish!

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Feet are not my forte and I should really nerd up on it some more so I have a better eye, but HHO collective mind, what do you think of Dex's feet?

It's about 20-25 days post shoeing and to me they just look a bit slippery, long in the toe and not much heel. This is Dex's 2nd ever set of shoes, the farrier has always said he has great feet and he's on a 6 week cycle and has used the same farrier since the day he arrived. The backs look a bit less flat than the front but still not like the first photo with the '8' on it.

So this foot is actually a back, not a front so might be useless for comparison purposes, but it's more what I expect to see in a foot I think? he was shod the day before this. The photo with '4' on it is the day he arrived, again just for comparison.


These are the photos taken today, I realise I missed out on getting a proper side on angle, I was doing it all cack handed - apologies!



The other front also taken today


Now unfortunately silly me didn't think to take any before photos when he was barefoot but I have zoomed in on a couple stood up photos to give a rough idea

 

[Equi]

I think id be wanting a different farrier to be honest. The angles of both shod photos compared to barefoot tells a story.

 

[Landcruiser]

If that's only two sets of shoes Dex is in trouble. Compared to the barefoot pics, his foot is already collapsing at the heel and the toe is shooting forward (but being fiercely dubbed off, heading towards being bull nosed. These feet are on a downward trajectory, sorry OP.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Sorry, OP, but I agree with the above posters.

Dex arrived with a pretty decent set of feet which the farrier is right on the way to wrecking. I can’t fathom what your farrier is trying to do balancing the feet like that.

The good thing is that it is still fairly early on for Dex, so the imbalances can hopefully soon be reversed, but not by that farrier.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Thanks all, obviously I'd rather he had great feet still, but it's reassuring to know that you're seeing what I thought I was seeing.

Would you send the farrier these photos and voice concern, or just swap? We have a few farriers that come to the yard, so changing isn't a huge deal. It's a shame as my farrier is pretty young and was always fab with previous horse, but it seems like he's become somewhat routine and lassaiz faire since I've come back to being a client.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

If that's only two sets of shoes Dex is in trouble. Compared to the barefoot pics, his foot is already collapsing at the heel and the toe is shooting forward (but being fiercely dubbed off, heading towards being bull nosed. These feet are on a downward trajectory, sorry OP.

Would you mind explaining what about the trim it is that causes a bull nose? I have just googled what it looks like and I can definitely see it in that first photo from today I posted.

 

[Landcruiser]

Would you mind explaining what about the trim it is that causes a bull nose? I have just googled what it looks like and I can definitely see it in that first photo from today I posted.

I'm going to qualify this by saying I'm not a trimmer - but I do trim my own horses and have done so for the best part of ten years.
In my opinion there are two ways to shoe an under run foot, The first is to just keep shoeing the "footprint" which is creeping forwards, so that the metal shoe moves inexorably out in front of the horse. Meaning the downward force ie gravity/mass of the horse down through its leg/foot moves backwards with relation to the foot - further crushing the heel and damaging the joints. Imagine a line drawn down the front of the canon bone. The point at which it hits the ground moves backwards.

The second way is to dub off the long toe and set the shoe back on the foot. This might seem better - the line down the canon bone stays somewhere under the foot. Except that the heels are still collapsing, the quarters are flaring outwards and deforming, and the wall at the toe is totally compromised and non weight bearing. The hoof capsule is squashing and the bull nose is trying to disguise/compensate for it.

Does this help at all?

 

[nettle]

Thanks all, obviously I'd rather he had great feet still, but it's reassuring to know that you're seeing what I thought I was seeing.

Would you send the farrier these photos and voice concern, or just swap? We have a few farriers that come to the yard, so changing isn't a huge deal. It's a shame as my farrier is pretty young and was always fab with previous horse, but it seems like he's become somewhat routine and lassaiz faire since I've come back to being a client.

I wouldn’t bother with trying to discuss with farrier. He obviously thinks what he’s doing is correct and in my experience, trying to have ‘that sort’ of conversation with a farrier rarely ends well.
I’m basing this on the results friends with shod horses have had. Other people may have had better outcomes.
My horse is barefoot, I used to trim myself (after a fair bit of training) now I’m old and decrepit I get a trimmer in to do his hinds.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I'm going to qualify this by saying I'm not a trimmer - but I do trim my own horses and have done so for the best part of ten years.
In my opinion there are two ways to shoe an under run foot, The first is to just keep shoeing the "footprint" which is creeping forwards, so that the metal shoe moves inexorably out in front of the horse. Meaning the downward force ie gravity/mass of the horse down through its leg/foot moves backwards with relation to the foot - further crushing the heel and damaging the joints. Imagine a line drawn down the front of the canon bone. The point at which it hits the ground moves backwards.

The second way is to dub off the long toe and set the shoe back on the foot. This might seem better - the line down the canon bone stays somewhere under the foot. Except that the heels are still collapsing, the quarters are flaring outwards and deforming, and the wall at the toe is totally compromised and non weight bearing. The hoof capsule is squashing and the bull nose is trying to disguise/compensate for it.

Does this help at all?

That’s super helpful, thank you! I think potentially I could have seen a mildly bullnosed hoof before and thought it normal, but I totally understand what you mean now.

I wouldn’t bother with trying to discuss with farrier. He obviously thinks what he’s doing is correct and in my experience, trying to have ‘that sort’ of conversation with a farrier rarely ends well.
I’m basing this on the results friends with shod horses have had. Other people may have had better outcomes.
My horse is barefoot, I used to trim myself (after a fair bit of training) now I’m old and decrepit I get a trimmer in to do his hinds.

I am feeling the same to be honest, I have tried to discuss Dex’s feet with him before and just get the standard ‘ahh it’s fine, his feet are great’ answer to anything I say, and I am not the only client that feels this way. So I think I’ll have a chat and a sneaky look at other hooves at the yard tomorrow and see if anyone is taking on clients. I will have to explain though as he shoes others on the yard too which is very awkward

 

[Suechoccy]

If you're gonna change farrier anyway, then you lose nothing by having a conversation with him and showing him the photos you've shown us, and discussing the comments with him.

 

[tda]

When was the no.8 pic, I don't like that at all

 

[dominobrown]

I think the heels are becoming more contracted. I actually quite like his barefoot feet. You can the stretch in the hairline starting to get worse now, which wasn't there in barefoot photos. The heels are then getting pulled under due to the contraction at the back of the foot. Also I am not convinced the feet are very balanced. I think this would push the heels under and push the toe forwards. Then its easy for the farrier to 'dump' the toe.

Please bare in mind I am not an expert, and people who have had different training etc may have different opinions.

A photo of the back of the foot looking at the heel will be handy.

 

[Lucky Snowball]

Sorry. Have the shoes been put on or are they being removed. In my opinion the barefoot pictures show much better feet. The shod photos are worrying. As per previous posts. Shocking.

 

[P.forpony]

I'd agree with the point that it can't hurt to have the conversation with your farrier if you're thinking of leaving him anyway.
Also apologies if I've missed it elsewhere, but just curious why you made to move to shoes when from what I can see he looked good barefoot?

 

[Highmileagecob]

Take him back to barefoot for a few months to allow the feet to recover. Just ask your farrier to remove the shoes, and leave them alone. Your farrier is altering his break over point, and removing the support that a natural hoof should have. Take a look at some of the barefoot sites and check what a mustang roll should look like. I feel this is what your farrier is possibly aiming for, but he is going too far.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I would take the shoes off they look much better barefoot.

Does he have to have shoes?

 

[Red-1]

I too would take them off again to allow the hoof to repair. A nice break would be a good time to swich farrier. I'd simply look around at what other horses' feet on the yard look like and when one looks good, ask who shoes it.

I have trimmed my own for ages, turns out it's easier to have an awkward conversation with myself than it was with a farrier. My BF now does it, he is eager to do as I ask and open to stepping back and assessing how it's going.

 

[Irish-Only]

Are you Devon/Somerset? Reason I'm asking is the lack of good farriers in this area?

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

When was the no.8 pic, I don't like that at all

That was the first round of shoeing freshly shod... in the interests of education, what is it you don't like about it?

Sorry. Have the shoes been put on or are they being removed. In my opinion the barefoot pictures show much better feet. The shod photos are worrying. As per previous posts. Shocking.

I too would take them off again to allow the hoof to repair. A nice break would be a good time to swich farrier. I'd simply look around at what other horses' feet on the yard look like and when one looks good, ask who shoes it.

I have trimmed my own for ages, turns out it's easier to have an awkward conversation with myself than it was with a farrier. My BF now does it, he is eager to do as I ask and open to stepping back and assessing how it's going.

Take him back to barefoot for a few months to allow the feet to recover. Just ask your farrier to remove the shoes, and leave them alone. Your farrier is altering his break over point, and removing the support that a natural hoof should have. Take a look at some of the barefoot sites and check what a mustang roll should look like. I feel this is what your farrier is possibly aiming for, but he is going to far.

They have been put on as he cannot cope with our hacking without them, none of the horses on our yard (approx 25 of them) can as we have lots of flinty tracks, stoney and uneven woods, stoney fields etc. I tried for a good 2 months with Keratex and in hand walking across the different footings but nothing worked, he was really miserable with it, so I had to admit defeat unfortunately. I agree that I prefer the barefoot foot, and that's why I am finding it so hard to believe that the shod foot looks so much worse after only two rounds of shoes! If I take the shoes off for a few months that means he'd need to have a total holiday and do no work as I don't want to just school and I'm not sure that would do his legs any good when they go back onto daytime turnout as he has naturally filling legs and benefits from walk hacking to walk them down, plus I'd probably have to reback him. Is this not repairable whilst he is in shoes? I'll do what I have to and whats best for him of course, but being able to keep him in some work would be ideal.

I think the heels are becoming more contracted. I actually quite like his barefoot feet. You can the stretch in the hairline starting to get worse now, which wasn't there in barefoot photos. The heels are then getting pulled under due to the contraction at the back of the foot. Also I am not convinced the feet are very balanced. I think this would push the heels under and push the toe forwards. Then its easy for the farrier to 'dump' the toe.

Please bare in mind I am not an expert, and people who have had different training etc may have different opinions.

A photo of the back of the foot looking at the heel will be handy.

This echos exactly what I thought I was seeing happen too, but I am also no expert, so it's good to be reassured that it sounds like my thinking is along the right track.

Are you Devon/Somerset? Reason I'm asking is the lack of good farriers in this area?

No, West Sussex

 

[Bernster]

Would hoof boots work?

 

[I'm Dun]

Just boot and pad if needed.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Would hoof boots work?

I have tried hoof boots before and had no end of problems with them, getting ones that fit well in the first place, getting them to stay on especially for any faster work or any ground that might have 1cm of mud or more, them rubbing especially when they get wet in the long grass or a bit of mud, Dex being young also can have legs in all directions and/or trip when he's tired and sometimes even pulls turnout boots off so he'd have a boot off in two seconds flat. I realise this may read conversely with the 'I'll do whats best for him' but I tried with the last one for a year to make hoof boots work and loathed every second of it and never succeeded, spent £1000 on useless shoes and visits from fitters.

 

[Tiddlypom]

For longterm soundness I can only think that Dex needs time out of shoes to let his feet regroup enough to be in good balance.

It’s annoying at best, more like distressing that a trained professional that you have enlisted to attend to your horse has fecked up so badly.

I am baffled as to how any farrier thought that shoeing as per pic 8 was going to help a horse that had previously been sporting a good set of barefoot feet.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

For longterm soundness I can only think that Dex needs time out of shoes to let his feet regroup enough to be in good balance.

It’s annoying at best, more like distressing that a trained professional that you have enlisted to attend to your horse has fecked up so badly.

Between my first post on this thread today and right now, I can only agree that this potentially is the only way forward. I will also have to find a new farrier to do his barefoot trims which is harder as it's not such an appealing amount for them to squeeze in a new client for.

I am not that emotionally attached to riding, but from the perspective of where he's at in his education and learning journey, it's really frustrating and I can only hope that it's not detrimental to the confidence he's been gaining with going out and seeing new things.

 

[BBP]

I would just look at it as he is only just 4 so this is a great time to give him a break. My guys aren’t even being backed til they are 5 (my preference). I don’t think it will harm his confidence as you have given him a fantastic start, you can continue to work on groundwork etc which will only benefit him, and you give his growth plates a little more time to fuse before you crack on with more ridden work. I think it’s a win win situation.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I would always give a 4 year old horse a break from work as his still so young and his body has still not formed properly.

 

[Lucky Snowball]

Perhaps when he was pulling boots off it was his body saying it was struggling with strength and or balance? Personally I would remove shoes and start really slowly with gradual work in boots. If he can’t cope then try a better farrier in the future. You’ve done such a great job with him and identified an issue so full marks to you. No criticism, just an old bat trying to help.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

could you try glue ons if boots are not an option?

 

[Fieldlife]

No, West Sussex

Should be lots of good farriers in West Sussex.

 

[Fieldlife]

I have tried hoof boots before and had no end of problems with them, getting ones that fit well in the first place, getting them to stay on especially for any faster work or any ground that might have 1cm of mud or more, them rubbing especially when they get wet in the long grass or a bit of mud, Dex being young also can have legs in all directions and/or trip when he's tired and sometimes even pulls turnout boots off so he'd have a boot off in two seconds flat. I realise this may read conversely with the 'I'll do whats best for him' but I tried with the last one for a year to make hoof boots work and loathed every second of it and never succeeded, spent £1000 on useless shoes and visits from fitters.

they are ever improving in design.