Opinions on this foot please? I'm rubbish!

BBP said:
I would just look at it as he is only just 4 so this is a great time to give him a break. My guys aren’t even being backed til they are 5 (my preference). I don’t think it will harm his confidence as you have given him a fantastic start, you can continue to work on groundwork etc which will only benefit him, and you give his growth plates a little more time to fuse before you crack on with more ridden work. I think it’s a win win situation.
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Absolutely this in spades - especially given his breed. If his feet aren't right then that will also affect the development in the rest of his body and how he is using himself. Hasten slowly with this would be my motto.

Also, if you find feet you like the look of on the yard, then telling the farrier that and why you need help should flatter them into taking you on!!!
 
I got some better photos which I thought I would post whilst I try and decide what to write to farrier, I think I need to at the very least explain why I am moving away.
Whilst I am by no means happy with these feet, I think they actually don't look as bad as they do in the first lot of photos. (caveat, he wasn't fully weighting the foot in all photos as he was fidgeting in the field)

Front right:

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Front Left: This onr is worse than the other front I think, I am concerned about the angle of the lines down his foot and how they change from the front of his foot to the side, is this valid?

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A hind, I prefer this to the fronts I think but if I am wrong please let me know! Heel still looks very unsupported - not the best angle I can now see but he was fidety by this point



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I struggle judging feet too but I do find it helps to see the whole line of the hoof and lower leg without the fetlocks wraps (?) to see how they are really weight bearing.

I agree that they might not be too bad now but they do seem to be heading in the wrong direction compared with his barefoot photos and it would not take too long to have a bigger problem to correct. I would not hesitate to ask another farrier for a very honest second opinion.

Well done you for spotting potential trouble now.
 
I wouldn't be happy about the toe being knocked back so severely. Now the shoe is on you can't see whether he has gone beyond the white line. To be honest, if he is the super busy chap that everyone in clamouring for, I wouldn't bother explaining. Enough to say another farrier's yard visits suit your time frames better.
 
Trouper said:
I struggle judging feet too but I do find it helps to see the whole line of the hoof and lower leg without the fetlocks wraps (?) to see how they are really weight bearing.

I agree that they might not be too bad now but they do seem to be heading in the wrong direction compared with his barefoot photos and it would not take too long to have a bigger problem to correct. I would not hesitate to ask another farrier for a very honest second opinion.

Well done you for spotting potential trouble now.
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Turnout boots, to stop him keep clonking himself in the legs when he's pratting about! 😂
Thank you, I do agree that the trajectory is worrying when you look at them in conjunction with the barefoot photos. Still awaiting replies from a couple farriers I have reached out to... Getting hold of one isn't the easiest thing in the world

Highmileagecob said:
I wouldn't be happy about the toe being knocked back so severely. Now the shoe is on you can't see whether he has gone beyond the white line. To be honest, if he is the super busy chap that everyone in clamouring for, I wouldn't bother explaining. Enough to say another farrier's yard visits suit your time frames better.
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Ahh the difficulty is that I am on 5 day part livery, so he comes and does them whenever and will continue to do several others on the yard, so it's somewhat more awkward than that. I will have to be honest with him about what I am seeing/worried about. It's a shame as he's a nice chap, always on time, good with the horses and easy to get hold of
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
I absolutely agree, the quality of the work I have received is the quality of the work I have received, and it's crap.. but I am surprised that a stud selling 100 or so horses a year, fairly frequently in excess of £50k, would use anyone less than the best around, or someone with top performance horses doing a hard job also worth a lot of money one assumes...
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Playing devil’s advocate here- the turnover of horses may be so vast that none of them are there long enough to play out the consequences of poor farriery.

Not saying this is true of the yard you refer to, but jabbing with steroids is pretty routine in competition yards- more common than looking holistically at posture and biomechanics etc, so I can completely see how poor foot care happens. That and the business of the industry- no one’s really looking/ got time to.

Look at the amount of ‘terrible TB feet’ that are around and accepted as the norm. Most in my experience can be drastically improved/ remedied with good farriery. On the yard’s I’ve been on, it’s been a production line approach.
 
Melody Grey said:
Playing devil’s advocate here- the turnover of horses may be so vast that none of them are there long enough to play out the consequences of poor farriery.

Not saying this is true of the yard you refer to, but jabbing with steroids is pretty routine in competition yards- more common than looking holistically at posture and biomechanics etc, so I can completely see how poor foot care happens. That and the business of the industry- no one’s really looking/ got time to.

Look at the amount of ‘terrible TB feet’ that are around and accepted as the norm. Most in my experience can be drastically improved/ remedied with good farriery. On the yard’s I’ve been on, it’s been a production line approach.
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They have over 50 broodmares but they are generally not shod, so perhaps you also wouldn't see as many issues there, plus not being in work.. It's a very interesting point you make though, perhaps jabbing and maintenance is so common in some situations that the detail of biomechanics is overlooked somewhat
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
I have tried hoof boots before and had no end of problems with them, getting ones that fit well in the first place, getting them to stay on especially for any faster work or any ground that might have 1cm of mud or more, them rubbing especially when they get wet in the long grass or a bit of mud, Dex being young also can have legs in all directions and/or trip when he's tired and sometimes even pulls turnout boots off so he'd have a boot off in two seconds flat. I realise this may read conversely with the 'I'll do whats best for him' but I tried with the last one for a year to make hoof boots work and loathed every second of it and never succeeded, spent £1000 on useless shoes and visits from fitters.
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I put shoes on my young mare for the exact same reason, I tried every brand possible in her size (two pairs new, some second hand, fit kits) and even HoofBoutique said she might be difficult to fit. I had one come half off while cantering and it get stuck around her fetlock last year luckily I stayed on and calmed her down.

It will be interesting to see photos once you change farrier.. like you, I don't know a huge lot about foot angles. My mare always had very good barefoot feet but struggled with the yards hacking (either fields or very stony track) and I've found myself questioning the way she is shod over the last year. One foot has less heel than the other etc. My farrier gives me the same comment as yours, he is also young but very busy (shoes 50% of the yard) plus local big competition yards and shod for team GB. Tempted to take some photos and ask forum members the same, but already feel worried about the result.

Following with interest
 
Hormonal Filly said:
I put shoes on my young mare for the exact same reason, I tried every brand possible in her size (two pairs new, some second hand, fit kits) and even HoofBoutique said she might be difficult to fit. I had one come half off while cantering and it get stuck around her fetlock last year luckily I stayed on and calmed her down.

It will be interesting to see photos once you change farrier.. like you, I don't know a huge lot about foot angles. My mare always had very good barefoot feet but struggled with the yards hacking (either fields or very stony track) and I've found myself questioning the way she is shod over the last year. One foot has less heel than the other etc. My farrier gives me the same comment as yours, he is also young but very busy (shoes 50% of the yard) plus local big competition yards and shod for team GB. Tempted to take some photos and ask forum members the same, but already feel worried about the result.

Following with interest
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In the nicest way possible, it's nice to know I'm not going mad and you have faced the same sort of challenges, thanks HF!
 
From those (your missing the underneath pics ;) ) he looks to have shod the heels short so there’s no support further back and it will be encouraging the heels to under run (I agree that the tubule angle changes indicating that - which I’m a bit surprised of from 2 cycles)
The toe dumping is particularly obvious in the head on pics
 
ester said:
From those (your missing the underneath pics ;) ) he looks to have shod the heels short so there’s no support further back and it will be encouraging the heels to under run (I agree that the tubule angle changes indicating that - which I’m a bit surprised of from 2 cycles)
The toe dumping is particularly obvious in the head on pics
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Sorry to be a pain, would you mind explaining what a toe dump is? Just to confirm my understanding, the tubules are the lines going down the outside of the hoof, and you're saying that the angle of the tubules not being the same angle as the tubules toward the front of the hoof is showing that they are increasingly starting to under run? I just want to make sure I understand what I'm looking at before I speak to him, and a lot of the articles online don't have any photos!

I didn't actually take any of the underneath! Silly me. I only have the one of the right front I posted in the OP.
 
The shoe is too short there is nothing behind the heal for support and one looks wonky and uneven, I also don't like front toe clips either side side clips or none at all is what mine always had.
 
Yes so you commented up there somewhere^^ about the lines changing as you go along the hoof so I’m agreeing they do - that’s the tubules. When the heels run under the tubules are usually getting more parallel to the ground. I suspect his feet are a bit inclined that way anyway. (On phone so trickier to flip between photos/pages to check bare ones!)

Added some mark ups, I feel like he might say that the toe dumping (everything below the blue line/obvious difference and just straight down on the rear was to reduce flare but he hasn’t actually addressed that if he were that way inclined (green line) 🤷‍♀️
 

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Pinkvboots said:
The shoe is too short there is nothing behind the heal for support and one looks wonky and uneven, I also don't like front toe clips either side side clips or none at all is what mine always had.
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he does side clips for hinds and toe clips for fronts, I'm not sure why - I should probably have asked before now, but that's back when I thought I could trust the professional to do a good job!
 
ester said:
Yes so you commented up there somewhere^^ about the lines changing as you go along the hoof so I’m agreeing they do - that’s the tubules. When the heels run under the tubules are usually getting more parallel to the ground. I suspect his feet are a bit inclined that way anyway. (On phone so trickier to flip between photos/pages to check bare ones!)

Added some mark ups, I feel like he might say that the toe dumping (everything below the blue line/obvious difference and just straight down on the rear was to reduce flare but he hasn’t actually addressed that if he were that way inclined (green line) 🤷‍♀️
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the middle pic of those 3 is classic. If you blow it up full size on your screen Shetland. The next time it is shod (that way) it will run forward a little more and the heels will get a little lower and underun. The farrier will trim more (dumping) off the top front of the toe. ie he will nail the shoe on there will be toe over the front of the shoe and he will rasp it ie dump it off from above.
The heel/foot will get lower and lower and more and more out in front of the horse.
So you can imagine he will almost be walking "behind" his foot. He is a big heavy horse yet will have little heel to support him.
His foot will look as if it wants shoving back underneath him.

I think he is 4? you can imagine, or at least I can, where his feet will be by the time he is 6.

I don't know what you say to your farrier because it shouldn't be necessary. I also don't know how a farrier will correct that by shoeing, obviously he will support the heels. Hopefully you can find a good farrier.

The only way I know to correct it is to start bringing the heels and toe back so that a new hoof starts to grow down at the correct angle from the top but you won't like that way. :D:D.
 
Shoes look too small, no heel support at all.

I think you *could* get better angles and stay in shoes with a different (better) farrier.
However finding a better one really does seem a struggle sometimes!
 
I'd told the farrier we were hunting. . which is why it was done. I suspect the breakover in front being good has as much as a good effect.
 
Chances are your farrier will take on board what you are saying and suggest putting heart bar shoes on to support the weak heel. Take the shoes off and let the feet recover. Can you do two or three months of groundwork and in hand walking? Cavallo hoof boots are a forgiving fit, and there are usually pairs for sale on second hand sites. A baby's nappy makes a good sock, and will take up any roomyness in the boot as well as helping to prevent rubs.
 
So small update - I found a farrier that I had an open conversation with about Dex's feet and I sent him the photos in the thread and discussed the concerns I have.
I have chosen to keep him in shoes for the time being as we do need them for our hacking, but I am not against whipping them off if we aren't seeing marked improvement.

I was there the first visit, not the second and then farrier asked me to be there to discuss progress but I missed it due to last minute work chaos (YO was there, I am on part livery so he wasn't left in the lurch!)

Put the original photo from 3 cycles ago against a photo from the cycle just done and I am seeing some improvement (I will take better photos when I'm not chasing the daylight), but also some things I am still not overly happy about - however, slowly and surely with changing feet so I am told.

In the top (most recent) one I am seeing the tubules are becoming more parallel, the toe isn't being bullnosed and the overall shape of the hoof is straighter and the flare is reduced when you look from the front.
However - I think the heels are still unsupported and underrun and I would still like to see a more 'upright' foot - I still think he is erring towards flat/long toed (which he naturally does anyway) but I think we could be on the right/a better trajectory.

If I am wrong though please tell me, I am still learning! I think I have the hoof in the photo to the right, but even flatter, and I want the hoof shape they have outlined in green on top of it

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