Opinions on this horse please

gunnergundog said:
Oops...sorry, if that was me, wasn't meaning to cause offence. Comments based on my genuine belief of the pictures and facts you presented.
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TBH, I took it to be aimed at the 2nd part of my post but my opinion stands - if the horse is what you want, and your 'experienced friend' (whom every-one should take to a viewing) approves, there is no point in asking for the opinions of complete strangers, who cannot see the horse in the flesh.
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
there is no point in asking for the opinions of complete strangers, who cannot see the horse in the flesh.
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But sometimes buyers don't have anyone else to take with them, so getting a second opinion from knowledgable people is helpful.

Aleka81 has got some really good comments from experienced people on here, and some of the faults listed may have been missed by someone else.
 
Aleka81 said:
Thank you re the advice of farrier to view

I have edited all people out and was interested in opinions and glad I asked as quite a big thing has been noted that I hadn't seen...
Sometimes this forum is brilliant like the 53 previous posts and then there always has to be one person who makes me wonder why I bother using it at all anymore!
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Out of interest what is the bigger thing that you hadn't noticed.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Photographs can be so misleading. Good luck with whatever you decide and instruct a good equine vet if you proceed.
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Entirely this. I think it is good that you now have all these extra views OP as it means you can ask your vet all of these questions. I would still proceed with the trial in your position but just be ultra wary. Unless the vet can sufficiently put your mind at rest on all the issues raised above, walk away. Also I would maybe use a different vet to the one whom you originally showed the photo too, as their feedback was a bit lacking in detail in my view. Finally, if you have the technology to video her in trot on a hard surface and play it back in slow motion, do so. That will help you analyse the toe landing first issue. If she is landing toe first, you need a decent farrier's opinion as to how fixable it is.
 
Fun Times said:
Finally, if you have the technology to video her in trot on a hard surface and play it back in slow motion, do so. That will help you analyse the toe landing first issue. If she is landing toe first, you need a decent farrier's opinion as to how fixable it is.
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Toe first landing is almost always fixable but a farrier isn't the person to talk to about that. In 30 odd years, I've never known a farrier even consider it, including some of the so called best hospital vets in the country.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
And that's a terrible case of toe-first landing too. That suggests issues in itself. It can be improved but you'd need to make some pretty quick changes if you wanted to avoid all kinds of lameness issues.
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how can you tell from the photo that there is a toe first landing - it looks to me as though the horse is just lifting the off fore and is breaking over - not landing. Is this what you meant ?
 
Sorry but for me - as per others says sort pasterns long cannons, and I would not buy a 4 years old who has hunted. Legs can often be shot to pieces, my mare was still going on quiet hacks and light schooling at 4. A lot of big horses because of their size end up doing to much to soon then then are wornout by 7 or lame.

Looks very week behind I personaly would find something which has done less at this age and would last you longer.
 
It is also a 4 year old who will very nearly be 5 - nothing wrong with jumping a 1m, you don't know it could have been a couple of times only.

Bit frustrated really to see a lot of people who think that all we do in Ireland is hammer the legs off 3 & 4 year olds by hunting them every weekend, competing them every weekend and starting them poorly. Just to sell to the English market. Not the case for the majority of Irish horses, most horses are well started and ridden accordingly to how they Feel. Some progress faster than others, and these tend to be the sport horses who are highly sought after!

The horse in question doesn't look that bad, just a weak baby. Yes the the legs don't look perfect but the photos are not always the most reliable. There are quite a few horses at top level eventing that have questionable conformation and no horse is perfect - you just have to know what you want to do and does the conformation look like they will stand up to it?
 
As I said the subject of hunting young Irish horses for the English market has been discussed a lot recently on this forum. I have not given my thoughts on the matter as I honestly don't know enough about what actually goes on in Ireland to comment.

I do know that I prefer to buy unbacked - regardless of country of origin - or as I said, buy an older, fully grown horse that is doing the level of work I want already and is staying sound, thus showing that it can cope with that level of work. But that's my opinion and no doubt lots will disagree. :)
 
Up to £2000, super big fun horse prospect if allowed time to grow on.

£2500 probably a good buy who will give a lot of fun and may mature into a superstar.

£3000. Worth taking on trial and if you like her then worth the money.

£4000 plus keep looking if you want something serious for this coming season.

Some strange comments people have made from two photos on this thread of a horse not even stood up square on a flat piece of ground!
 
PoppyAnderson said:
Toe first landing is almost always fixable but a farrier isn't the person to talk to about that. In 30 odd years, I've never known a farrier even consider it, including some of the so called best hospital vets in the country.
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Really!

You have been using the wrong farriers!!!!! ;)
Or maybe I have been lucky with my farrier! ;?
 
Just to go against the grain a little...
a) photos can be misleading.
b) very trivial things can make a horse appear "off" in a photo.

In my guy's case, it was more a poor shoeing job than actual issue with his legs. Only you can decide whether you think she's worth the risk (my boy's temperament swung it for me). Best of luck whatever you decide.
 
only_me said:
It is also a 4 year old who will very nearly be 5 - nothing wrong with jumping a 1m, you don't know it could have been a couple of times only.

Bit frustrated really to see a lot of people who think that all we do in Ireland is hammer the legs off 3 & 4 year olds by hunting them every weekend, competing them every weekend and starting them poorly. Just to sell to the English market. Not the case for the majority of Irish horses, most horses are well started and ridden accordingly to how they Feel. Some progress faster than others, and these tend to be the sport horses who are highly sought after!

The horse in question doesn't look that bad, just a weak baby. Yes the the legs don't look perfect but the photos are not always the most reliable. There are quite a few horses at top level eventing that have questionable conformation and no horse is perfect - you just have to know what you want to do and does the conformation look like they will stand up to it?
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Nothing wrong?? I have to dissagree with that since I have seen many young horses put into too much work or being asked to do too much to soon - what is wrong with letting them mature slowly - what is the rush to make them grow up too soon.

It maybe nearly 5 but large horses knees do not knit or fuse totally till 6 . I knew a lovely coloured gelding owner jumping 5ft jumping classes at 4 - 5. Where is he now??? at the age of 7 his hocks knacked could no longer jump and sold on for what ever price she could get.

would NEVER jump a horse above 18" before they are 4, at this age they are still growing, and the bone in their knees has not fully closed. This causes them th have weaker knees than an older horse, which causes them to be more susceptable to injuries in their legs and back. Before passing 18", a horse should have its knees x-rayed by the vet to make sure that their knees are closed
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I get that you're all concerned about not doing too much with young horses, but really - if you wait until everything's mature/closed/calcified/etc. they'd never have enough time to learn, get fit or experienced. How about all the kids out there doing sports; their joints are just as immature and yet we know that physical exercise is GOOD for our children. The same thing has actually been proven in horses (there are links to the scientific papers on here somewhere); 3 year olds doing light work have FEWER injuries, better bone density and improved long term soundness when compared to horses "left to mature".

The key is to be sensible enough to gauge the level of work.
 
Moya_999 said:
Nothing wrong?? I have to dissagree with that since I have seen many young horses put into too much work or being asked to do too much to soon - what is wrong with letting them mature slowly - what is the rush to make them grow up too soon.

It maybe nearly 5 but large horses knees do not knit or fuse totally till 6 . I knew a lovely coloured gelding owner jumping 5ft jumping classes at 4 - 5. Where is he now??? at the age of 7 his hocks knacked could no longer jump and sold on for what ever price she could get.
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Agree with this - there is some really good stuff on Deb Bennett's website (PHD Equine Specialist) about growth plates etc. You wont ever make a mistake from taking things too slow, unlike taking things too fast - the horse in question looks typically like a late maturing horse too.

Cortex I get what you are saying, but kids doing sports are not carrying a rider, and for the ones who are doing repetitive movements they often experience problems and damage that lasts into adulthood - obviously some are okay, but not all - the type of exercise a young horse is doing is key really - and also looking a the horse you have - the horse in question looks very immature to me
 
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I agree with you Cortez all the recent research suggests that work at younger ages is necessary for horses to reach full athletic potential.
But you are spot on it has to be the right type of work that increases the horses elasticity , it's muscle mass and bone and develops balance and perception .
One of our modern issues is that many young horses are doing too much or too little or veering between the two and doing nothing then too much .
Just because I would not touch with a barge pole a horse that has hunted at three does not mean I won't work with three year olds in the school and gently hack them.
Just because I would be very cautious of buying a four year old that had hunted a full season does mean I won't take my own autumn hunting .
PS this is no comment on the horse OP is posting about just a general observation .
 
Moya_999 said:
Nothing wrong?? I have to dissagree with that since I have seen many young horses put into too much work or being asked to do too much to soon - what is wrong with letting them mature slowly - what is the rush to make them grow up too soon.

It maybe nearly 5 but large horses knees do not knit or fuse totally till 6 . I knew a lovely coloured gelding owner jumping 5ft jumping classes at 4 - 5. Where is he now??? at the age of 7 his hocks knacked could no longer jump and sold on for what ever price she could get.
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A horse jumping a couple of sj rounds at 1m is hardly going to do much damage especially if the horse has natural talent. If you read my post i actually said it depends on how much jumping the horse has done! The horse in question could have jumped a little, or a lot, we don't know.

Plus, you may have seen a lot of young horses worked too hard too soon, and then are knackered at a young age, but I've seen a lot of horses who started work young and continued to work well into their teens.

I don't think there is anything wrong with working a 4 year old lightly (which could be the case with this horse, and would explain the weak back end) and taking it jumping a couple of times to give it experience. Plus some horses need to progess faster as their minds are quick; if you give them too much time then they wil start to play up or get bored.
 
Could just be the photo but I echo the concerns over her legs and weak looking back end - I'd be worried myself and would probably steer clear.
 
Whilst conformation is important, bear in mind it isn't a guarantee. I have a rising 4 yo with almost perfect confo, indeed his legs are textbook but he is currently under investigation for stifle issues, being lame on flexion and he hasn't even been backed yet.
 
Moya_999 said:
It maybe nearly 5 but large horses knees do not knit or fuse totally till 6 .
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No, the growth plates of the 'knees' (it's really the equivalent of our wrist) actually are converted to bone at around 18 months - 2 years. It's the SPINE that you really need to worry about as the final vertebrae (in the neck - so no rollkur) to have their growth plates converted to bone occurs when the horse is over 6 yo.

People often misquote/misunderstand the research about early exercise and bone changes as a result. You can read Dr Bennetts thoughts in this oft quoted, but probably hardly ever properly read article (starts at the bottom of page 2) and if you go to page 6 you can read about skeletal maturity.

http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf
 
only_me said:
Plus some horses need to progess faster as their minds are quick; if you give them too much time then they wil start to play up or get bored.
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There're plenty of ways to occupy a horse's mind without hard work - you don't even have to be on their back to make them use their brain!
 
If YOU like the horse, then have her on trial. Get your vet to have a look while you have her and see what they think. if you like her and your vet passes it and you can afford her and want her then have her. Your life, your horse, your money.

If she goes wrong, well somethimes they do whatever!!
 
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