Opinions on this horse please

[Moya_999]

A horse jumping a couple of sj rounds at 1m is hardly going to do much damage especially if the horse has natural talent. If you read my post i actually said it depends on how much jumping the horse has done! The horse in question could have jumped a little, or a lot, we don't know.

Plus, you may have seen a lot of young horses worked too hard too soon, and then are knackered at a young age, but I've seen a lot of horses who started work young and continued to work well into their teens.

I don't think there is anything wrong with working a 4 year old lightly (which could be the case with this horse, and would explain the weak back end) and taking it jumping a couple of times to give it experience. Plus some horses need to progess faster as their minds are quick; if you give them too much time then they wil start to play up or get bored.

I see what you're saying but it appears this horse has hunted (has a hunter clip too). Not just brought on slowly......

As for saying horses have to be started early to reach their full potenticial does not mean they won't if they are started later. If Horses can be retrained at 10-11 to a completely new activity and do really well in competition then the argument about you have to start early to achieve does not stand up. I mean look at race horses brought into normal training after being on the track they learn don't they some do really well and only just started out in *normal* day riding later in years

One livery here had her gelding at 4 1/2 took him really slowly advised that the Irish Draught knees were not ready for anything fast or hard till 6. Once 6 brought him on slowly and sensibly and competed really high up in jumping competitions till age 11. Now 12 and with owner with back injury the horse no longer jumps and started western last year so had to learn a completely new equine trait and now competes and doing really well.

I remember a saying in a movie called casey's Shadow when he went in a match race and went lame. Vet said " if you keep them till 6 you have a longer carrer use them at two and all you get is a full meat wagon* or words along that line.

 

[Moya_999]

No, the growth plates of the 'knees' (it's really the equivalent of our wrist) actually are converted to bone at around 18 months - 2 years. It's the SPINE that you really need to worry about as the final vertebrae (in the neck - so no rollkur) to have their growth plates converted to bone occurs when the horse is over 6 yo.

People often misquote/misunderstand the research about early exercise and bone changes as a result. You can read Dr Bennetts thoughts in this oft quoted, but probably hardly ever properly read article (starts at the bottom of page 2) and if you go to page 6 you can read about skeletal maturity.

http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf

Thanx for the offer but no thanx Well we will have to agree to disagree with this.


We saw in dissection the stated of a horses joints when it had been abused to0 young. (career in eventing) I think it's a bad idea to bring a horse on too soon with its growing joints as the horse more often than not does not reach its final height till 6 therefore its body is not ready for the hardness of hunting at the age of 4.

So with vets advice to the contrary of your statement I will still bring any horse I have and advice others to go slow.

Why are humans such in a hurry to grow up (you see kids all the time wanting to grow up quick) and their animals too.

Horses like humans are only young once and for such a short time, why do some want them to grow up so quick just to satisfy the humans needs or lifestyle. Enjoy them while their young IMO

 

[Smurf's Gran]

TAKEN DIRECTLY FRPOM DTR DEB BENNETTS WEBSITE

To clarify, this is the order and the approximate age at which the growth plates close up:

1. Birth: distal phalanx (coffin bone)

2. Birth and six months: middle phalanx

3. Between six months and 1 year: proximal phalanx

4. Between 8 months and 1½ years: metacarpals/metatarsals (cannon bones)

5. Between 1½ and 2½ years: carpal bones

6. Between 2 and 2½ years: radius-ulna

7. Between 2½ and 3 years: ulna/femur, section that carries weight above the radius; tibia

8. Between 3 and 3½ years: humerus; bottom part of the femur

9. Between 3 and 4 years: pelvis begins to close, beginning with the extremities of the ischium, ilium and sacrum

10. Between 3½ and 4 years: lower part (that carries weight) of the scapula (shoulderblade)

; top neck vertebrae

12. From 4 years: tarsal bones then the growth plates between fibula and tibia (not without reason that 18th century literature forbade ploughing, crossing of deep mud and jumping for young horses)

13. Between 5½ and 8 years: vertebrae (the larger the horse and the longer the neck, the longer it takes for the growth plates to close up. For stallions, add another six months: this means a “warmblood” horse of about 17hh will not be fully grown until 8 years old.)

Of course, all this does not mean that we cannot do anything with our horses until they are eight, but it should certainly set us thinking about our training schemes.

 

[Moya_999]

TAKEN DIRECTLY FRPOM DTR DEB BENNETTS WEBSITE

To clarify, this is the order and the approximate age at which the growth plates close up:

1. Birth: distal phalanx (coffin bone)

2. Birth and six months: middle phalanx

3. Between six months and 1 year: proximal phalanx

4. Between 8 months and 1½ years: metacarpals/metatarsals (cannon bones)

5. Between 1½ and 2½ years: carpal bones

6. Between 2 and 2½ years: radius-ulna

7. Between 2½ and 3 years: ulna/femur, section that carries weight above the radius; tibia

8. Between 3 and 3½ years: humerus; bottom part of the femur

9. Between 3 and 4 years: pelvis begins to close, beginning with the extremities of the ischium, ilium and sacrum

10. Between 3½ and 4 years: lower part (that carries weight) of the scapula (shoulderblade)

; top neck vertebrae

12. From 4 years: tarsal bones then the growth plates between fibula and tibia (not without reason that 18th century literature forbade ploughing, crossing of deep mud and jumping for young horses)

13. Between 5½ and 8 years: vertebrae (the larger the horse and the longer the neck, the longer it takes for the growth plates to close up. For stallions, add another six months: this means a “warmblood” horse of about 17hh will not be fully grown until 8 years old.)

Of course, all this does not mean that we cannot do anything with our horses until they are eight, but it should certainly set us thinking about our training schemes.

Thanx for that which is exactly what I was advised or told when I brought my big ID that their bones closed late and mot doing anything hard and fast till 6.

 

[only_me]

When I bought mine he had a full clip - not because he was in heavy work but because he looked Better and was for sale. And he had also never hunted before ( I know because I took him to a hunt ride shortly after buying and was out for an hour - Irish hunting is a lot different to English hunting). So just because OP's horse has a hunter clip does not mean it will have been in heavy work!

I also did not say you need to start young so that they can reach their full potential - I said start as a 4 year old & bring them out and let them experience different atmosphere/places etc.

And just to say, not all horses grow till 6 - mine hasn't grown a cm in height since he was 4 he has only filled out, as you would expect a young horse to do. Joints can be damaged in an unbroken 3 year old, and degenerative change is normal in older horses. Look at humans - we will all end up with degenerative changes (arthritis) no matter what we do when young.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Thanx for that which is exactly what I was advised or told when I brought my big ID that their bones closed late and mot doing anything hard and fast till 6.

No problem.. people are too keen to get going with young horses. Just because a young horse can do something doesn't always mean it should, and if a young horse is being produced to sell on then the damage is often invisible.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

When I bought mine he had a full clip - not because he was in heavy work but because he looked Better and was for sale. And he had also never hunted before ( I know because I took him to a hunt ride shortly after buying and was out for an hour - Irish hunting is a lot different to English hunting). So just because OP's horse has a hunter clip does not mean it will have been in heavy work!

I also did not say you need to start young so that they can reach their full potential - I said start as a 4 year old & bring them out and let them experience different atmosphere/places etc.

And just to say, not all horses grow till 6 - mine hasn't grown a cm in height since he was 4 he has only filled out, as you would expect a young horse to do. Joints can be damaged in an unbroken 3 year old, and degenerative change is normal in older horses. Look at humans - we will all end up with degenerative changes (arthritis) no matter what we do when young.

We may well all have degenerative changes - horses too, but start horses too young, and do inappropriate work and they definitely will have. I am in agreement with Dtr Deb, she is the expert after all - and being over cautious wont harm, but moving on too quickly will have a higher chance of causing some damage.

 

[meesha]

If hunting regularly conformation faults would worry me. Mine has bone cyst in stifle, only confirmation fault is slightly straight behind according to vet but do wonder if this is why he has the issue. Most importantly I don't think the bone cyst would have caused any problems had I been lightly hacking, reared its ugly head after some fun rides where we jumped a lot followed by hunting then was fine through summer (trottted up sound after injections into stifle throughout summer) and became worse after hunting again!

Lots of horses out there

 

[Moya_999]

If hunting regularly conformation faults would worry me. Mine has bone cyst in stifle, only confirmation fault is slightly straight behind according to vet but do wonder if this is why he has the issue. Most importantly I don't think the bone cyst would have caused any problems had I been lightly hacking, reared its ugly head after some fun rides where we jumped a lot followed by hunting then was fine through summer (trottted up sound after injections into stifle throughout summer) and became worse after hunting again!

Lots of horses out there

Me too - as with a high milage hard driven car it's going to have wear and tear just like a horse IMO, just becasue you cannot seen the problem does not mean it is not there, when spending your hard earnt cash one has to be careful what you spend it on. As Smurf said its the damage that has been done hunting so young would worry me.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Thanx for the offer but no thanx Well we will have to agree to disagree with this.


We saw in dissection the stated of a horses joints when it had been abused to0 young. (career in eventing) I think it's a bad idea to bring a horse on too soon with its growing joints as the horse more often than not does not reach its final height till 6 therefore its body is not ready for the hardness of hunting at the age of 4.

So with vets advice to the contrary of your statement I will still bring any horse I have and advice others to go slow.

Why are humans such in a hurry to grow up (you see kids all the time wanting to grow up quick) and their animals too.

Horses like humans are only young once and for such a short time, why do some want them to grow up so quick just to satisfy the humans needs or lifestyle. Enjoy them while their young IMO

You have completely misunderstood my post. Where did I say that starting horses young was a good thing? I merely corrected your misinformation RE 'knees' and their growth plates. I don't understand what the 'offer' was that you refer to? Was it to not read Dr Bennetts article? You seemed to like what she has to say when SG quoted her? What's wrong with me referencing her?

I have an unbacked 4 yo - I don't rush my horses, but it's not because I worry about their 'knees'.

Anyway I'll take the risk and quote the good Dr Bennett again 'if you are one of those who equates 'starting' with 'riding' , then I guess you'd better not start your horse until he's four.'

See, you really should have read the article!

 

[Luci07]

It was me who has been instigating the debate about hunting at 4. Technically my (now 7 year old ISH) is a warmblood as he is TB x ID and he is still changing shape. My personal choice would be to not look at any young horse that has been hunted at 4 in Ireland, unless it was through someone I knew who could testify it was a light introduction. I have seen too many horses broken at 6 and that was a common thread. And if it's done for the English market that's a real shame. If your mare is 16.3 at 4, she may well end up well over the 17 hand mark so do bear that in mind as well. My 16.3 4 year old sprouted and ended at 17.2 (and sold) and my 16.1 4 year old is just under 17 hands now.

 

[Arizahn]

I'm not keen on her at all. Wouldn't be prepared to pay even half that much either, sorry.

 

[Dusty85]

I recently saw an ad for as ISH that had 'been hunted' complete with pics of him out hunting as a 3 year old.... safe to say I didn't pursue any further!

I don't see anything wrong with introducing a few cubbing outings to a four year old, but it would have to be the right four year old, and it would have to be lightly.

Im currently interested in a 17hh 5 rising 6 year old who was broken this summer and now being ridden away and that suits me just fine!

 

[Moya_999]

You have completely misunderstood my post. Where did I say that starting horses young was a good thing? I merely corrected your misinformation RE 'knees' and their growth plates. I don't understand what the 'offer' was that you refer to? Was it to not read Dr Bennetts article? You seemed to like what she has to say when SG quoted her? What's wrong with me referencing her?

I have an unbacked 4 yo - I don't rush my horses, but it's not because I worry about their 'knees'.

Anyway I'll take the risk and quote the good Dr Bennett again 'if you are one of those who equates 'starting' with 'riding' , then I guess you'd better not start your horse until he's four.'

See, you really should have read the article!

God how patronising is that.

I do plenty of ground work before mounting thank you.

I am well aware of when to train a young horse thank you, and how to go about the training as I am old enough and trained enough horses. Sorry I do not need to read that nor want too. Your entitled to your opinions and I am entitled to mine, fact is OP ask our advice on this horse and we gave it and our opinion on doing to much to soon and our beliefs on the bones. No wonder so many cross over to somewhere where you don't get your views questioned.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I really did not mean to upset you - I don't understand how I have when we really agree very much on this issue. No I don't think that Dr Deb Bennett is the only authority on this subject. I don't understand why you agree with her research when SG quotes it, but disagree when i quote it.

 

[MrsMozart]

Be careful if that leg does indeed have a twist to it.

I bought a lovely five year old ISH from the sales. Nearly a year later the advanced navicular proved too much. If a good farrier had go to him young enough the the twist in his foreleg could have been fixed, but maybe at six weeks and certainly not at nearly six years.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

God how patronising is that.

I do plenty of ground work before mounting thank you.

I am well aware of when to train a young horse thank you, and how to go about the training as I am old enough and trained enough horses. Sorry I do not need to read that nor want too. Your entitled to your opinions and I am entitled to mine, fact is OP ask our advice on this horse and we gave it and our opinion on doing to much to soon and our beliefs on the bones. No wonder so many cross over to somewhere where you don't get your views questioned.

Ok, I've just seen your edit - you've got completely the wrong end of the stick again.

I wasn't criticizing you or how you back your horses (I've never seen how you do things, so how can I possibly have an opinion on it), I put that quote in to show that she AGREES with you and that it would be worth your time reading the article as her work supports your viewpoint.

Seriously I don't know what I've done wrong to make you so cross/upset and I'm very sorry as it was not intended in any way, shape or form.

 

[Moya_999]

I really did not mean to upset you - I don't understand how I have when we really agree very much on this issue. No I don't think that Dr Deb Bennett is the only authority on this subject. I don't understand why you agree with her research when SG quotes it, but disagree when i quote it.

That is because in my haste I quoted the wrong post~> this is the post I was suppose to quote and agree on shoot me down now.

Cortex I get what you are saying, but kids doing sports are not carrying a rider, and for the ones who are doing repetitive movements they often experience problems and damage that lasts into adulthood - obviously some are okay, but not all - the type of exercise a young horse is doing is key really - and also looking a the horse you have - the horse in question looks very immature to me

 

[Meowy Catkin]

That is because in my haste I quote the wrong post~> this is the post I was suppose to quote and agree on shoot me down now.

Phew - I was worried that I'd really upset you somehow.

 

[Fun Times]

I fear we have scared the OP away...

 

[cornbrodolly]

OP originally asked for conformation advice- but doesnt seem to like the answers! I totally agree that the legs are very poor, and horse has probaly done far too much work already - which will be detremental to horse s long term future. A certain amount of exercise is beneficial - but not jumping. Arthritis will set in , or tendons will go, well, just read books on lameness for a long list of possibilities!
What hasnt been mentioned is horse s terrible sickle hocks!Coupled with a weak back end and poor front legs [ tied behind knee, etc etc] I cant see this horse standing up to work for long at all.Posters seem to dislike conformation critisism - but its an objective thing to look for weaknesses - not personal!

 

[meesha]

Must be hard, imagine falling in love with a horse only to hear all of our warnings of doom!

 

[brighteyes]

Unless you know who has started her, and how much she has done I'd be very wary. They are largely cash liabilities and the longer they are left to mature, the less profit. Either vet thoroughly or find another. First pic does her no favours at all. Does my head in, people rushing youngsters. I think TB's are an exception to the rule and their bones are strengthened by early work - or so was the thinking a few years back at the vet talk I attended. Not so the Irish types, I'd imagine.

 

[Spring Feather]

God how patronising is that.

Are you reading the same thread as everyone else? Faracat has been agreeing with you the whole way through this thread and you appear to not be understanding that ... now where is the confused emoticon!

 

[Cortez]

Unless you know who has started her, and how much she has done I'd be very wary. They are largely cash liabilities and the longer they are left to mature, the less profit. Either vet thoroughly or find another. First pic does her no favours at all. Does my head in, people rushing youngsters. I think TB's are an exception to the rule and their bones are strengthened by early work - or so was the thinking a few years back at the vet talk I attended. Not so the Irish types, I'd imagine.

TB's are no different to other horses in the way their bones are constructed, nor in their maturity, and there is enormous wastage from training. Most Irish horses have a large dose of TB in their make up. ALL horses respond to exercise.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Phew - I was worried that I'd really upset you somehow.

OK, I've reread this thread and it seems that I was wrong posting the above and that you don't like SG's post about Dr Bennetts research either. Can you provide alternative data that disputes her research in the skeletal maturing rates of horses?

Are you reading the same thread as everyone else? Faracat has been agreeing with you the whole way through this thread and you appear to not be understanding that ... now where is the confused emoticon!

I'm so glad that you can see that I'm not going mad SF. Honestly I was utterly bewildered reading M999's posts yesterday and I'm still completely confused over the whole thing today. Too much brandy maybe?

 

[seejay]

OP originally asked for conformation advice- but doesnt seem to like the answers!

??????

 

[Bedlam]

I'd love to see photos of all the horses that people on this thread own just to see all the perfect specimens that they wisely invested in and how successful they all have become.....just out of interest.

I've bought some really badly put together ponies in the past who have been very good for purpose and some well put together ones that haven't.

My gut feeling on horses has usually ended up being correct - but by no means always - and I have been swayed by a vetting passed to buy something I had niggly doubts about that eventually proved me right and cost me a lot of money. I have been lucky enough to follow my gut instinct on a couple who have been amazing.

So - my advice is to trust your gut and to listen to any niggles that make you doubt yourself. It's less of a science and more of an art in my experience.

 

[ester]

TBF posters on here do only have a photo to go on though, not the horse in the flesh and they were asked for an opinion.

Mine is pretty good apart from being straight behind - he is welsh and has stood up to quite a lot of work until now apart from a foot related lameness 3 years ago. He is now 21.

Mum's mare is pretty shocking body wise though her legs aren't actually too bad compared to the rest of her :eek3:. She has had no issues for the previous 10 years but now at 15 does have a suspensory injury, probably not related to her confo though really.

I think it must depend on whether you are buying something of which there are a few about (which I would think would be the case here) or something which is worth the risk for other reasons due to it's experience/overwhelming talent etc.

 

[googol]

OP originally asked for conformation advice- but doesnt seem to like the answers! I totally agree that the legs are very poor, and horse has probaly done far too much work already - which will be detremental to horse s long term future. A certain amount of exercise is beneficial - but not jumping. Arthritis will set in , or tendons will go, well, just read books on lameness for a long list of possibilities!
What hasnt been mentioned is horse s terrible sickle hocks!Coupled with a weak back end and poor front legs [ tied behind knee, etc etc] I cant see this horse standing up to work for long at all.Posters seem to dislike conformation critisism - but its an objective thing to look for weaknesses - not personal!

Don't see where you think OP hasn't liked the responses. I think she was grateful for the opinions
A few other people have got the wrong end of the stick with each other but OP hasn't posted in a while

FWIW I think the thread has been useful however I agree that it's very difficult to properly judge the horse from a few pics but it has obviously given OP some valid points to consider

I agree with onlyme that it's frustrating that everyone thinks horses are hammered into the ground in Ireland. This is completely not true - irelandis a big place so if a few people have had this experience it is not representative of the whole country!!