ozpoz
Well-Known Member
Anyone read George Orwells nineteen eighty four?
Yes, I have.
This is all just b*****s.
Osama Bin Laden is Dead
- Thread starter CanadianGirl
- Start date
Yes, I have.
This is all just b*****s.
mymare
Well-Known Member
Something just doesn't ring true about all this. I don't believe it, sorry.
^^ this. The people celebrating in the street are as bad as the ones burning our poppies.
^^ this. The people celebrating in the street are as bad as the ones burning our poppies.
1stclassalan
Well-Known Member
Er...hmm.... the figure often quoted is actually 72 not 77 - not that it makes the slightest difference as the Quor' An makes no such promises to anyone.
The trouble with this "quotation" is the root of all fundamentalist propaganda - the book, is basically a series of rambling stories that would have made more sense to desert dwellers back in the middle ages - now that some of them are a bit thin, they need interprtation to bring out the TRUE meaning - and there's the problem.
1stclassalan
Well-Known Member
For me 1984 was much less a true vision of the future but a snap shot of 1947 - the year in which it was written - and the inspiration for the Ministry of Love could quite easily have been St Paul's Cathedral standing as it was in a sea of rubble - representing the one true faith which is of course a complete pack of lies from start to finish!
The best point made in the book is the idea of Blackwhiters - people who would willingly tell you black was white - these were themselves outdone by Duckspeakers - people who not only told you black was white but knew that it was true.
1stclassalan
Well-Known Member
For my twopennyworth - Bin Laden has been grossly over exaggerated as the anti-Christ - he was only ever a money man who brought the wherewithal to others.
Al'Quaeda - the words simply mean "the network" never was this great organisation run from corporate headquarters with OBL at the top in a big chair - it's little groups of idealists doing their own thing separately and this is far more difficult to keep tabs on.
I do hope though - in those few seconds between waking and being blown away that the irony of the situation had time to sink in - OBL has had paranoid aversion to the modern world for years and never used a mobile phone, never occupied a room with a phone line or any technology - and now it seems that he was tracked down by not having them. Truly poetic.
Al'Quaeda - the words simply mean "the network" never was this great organisation run from corporate headquarters with OBL at the top in a big chair - it's little groups of idealists doing their own thing separately and this is far more difficult to keep tabs on.
I do hope though - in those few seconds between waking and being blown away that the irony of the situation had time to sink in - OBL has had paranoid aversion to the modern world for years and never used a mobile phone, never occupied a room with a phone line or any technology - and now it seems that he was tracked down by not having them. Truly poetic.
ozpoz
Well-Known Member
I first read 1984 almost 35 years ago .. and re read it recently.
I find it amazingly prophetic and disturbing, e.g newspeak, and the description of news reporting being re edited to fit with propaganda.
Not forgetting the dumbing down of ordinary people.
I find it amazingly prophetic and disturbing, e.g newspeak, and the description of news reporting being re edited to fit with propaganda.
Not forgetting the dumbing down of ordinary people.
bryngelenponies
Well-Known Member
And you don't think that would create an equal amount of animosity and uproar from his followers in their attempts to have him released? It's gone beyond simplistic revenge killing, to call it that undermines the scenario. By this stage he has gone far past any crimes against humanity- Mugabe still hasn't been tried for his crimes. I really fear the backlash to this, particularly the street parties we're seeing in places like New York.
perfect11s
Well-Known Member
It gives them credabilty in my view that they stick up for justice!! I supose if we had got to him first he would have had an army of hand wringing uman rights lawyers, and social workers/medics looking after him, then a inconclusive trial ending in aquital and him claiming asylum then benifits...
junglefairy
Well-Known Member
The Nuremberg trials were pretty successful. I just personally believe that in a civilized society, for justice to work the rules must be the same for everyone. It is a slippery slope (which the Americans are already sliding with Guantanamo) to start convicting without fair trial. These guys may be evil monsters, but the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' is should not be ignored. Once they are proven guilty, do what you want with them, and then you can take the moral high ground and claim justice has been done.
perfect11s
Well-Known Member
Those trials were 60 odd years ago AND before we went all soft and fuffy!!!!!!!!!!!
bryngelenponies
Well-Known Member
All the Nuremberg Trials really accomplished was to confirm what everyone already knew- that's forgetting all the people who managed to escape the trials. The idea of justice is rather blurry, particularly internationally. Which court would he have answered to? Do you think that being legally declared guilty would have really achieved anything? The only thing it would have achieved would have been to incite huge unrest and upheaval amongst his supporters worldwide.
LizzyandToddy
Well-Known Member
I think it is a little sad all the street partying in america, they are no better than the very insurgents that they are trying to kill. There they are boasting about democracy and trying to force it upon others when really, well look at the pictures.
Yes those that unfortunately lost there lives in 7/11 have been 'vindicated', but now the terrorists will just strike back for Osama's death, its a vicious circle sadly.
By celebrating his death they are simply asking for trouble, making Osama more of a martyr for a cause. Which is going to achieve nothing other than reinforcement of the very culture they have tried to destroy.
Yes those that unfortunately lost there lives in 7/11 have been 'vindicated', but now the terrorists will just strike back for Osama's death, its a vicious circle sadly.
By celebrating his death they are simply asking for trouble, making Osama more of a martyr for a cause. Which is going to achieve nothing other than reinforcement of the very culture they have tried to destroy.
EAST KENT
Well-Known Member
Oh there will be trouble aplenty alright,and I am not totally convinced.They slipped the body into the sea rather fast..why?In a way it is a little sad,much prefered the wily old soldier to be elusive forever and maintain his charisma.Not supporting his methods by the way, but I just hate all these self congratulately yanks,so bloomin` infantile.
Lynds
Well-Known Member
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." Martin Luther King, Jr
DragonSlayer
Well-Known Member
eb1989
Active Member
I just dread to think what will happen now. All i can say is next years olympics will most likely be overshadowed by the prospect of some lunatic blowing himself up. May of gotten rid of one shame about he hundreds of others left 
Spudlet
Well-Known Member
Islam requires burial to take place within 24 hours of death - actually, by sunset on the day that death occurs (a sensible requirement, when you think that Islam came from very hot countries, long before refrigerated morgues and efficient embalming techniques were available - you really don't want people hanging about in those circumstances!). Hence the quick (to Western eyes) burial.
1stclassalan
Well-Known Member
I first read 1984 almost 35 years ago .. and re read it recently.
I find it amazingly prophetic and disturbing, e.g newspeak, and the description of news reporting being re edited to fit with propaganda.
Not forgetting the dumbing down of ordinary people.
Interesting - which part did you find particularly prophetic? The news in 1947 was already being edited for purposes that had started during the war - founded in the commendable ideal of confusing the enemy but where does it stop?
In 1984 the war still continues between Oceania & Eurasia with England being Airstrip One - which is very Churchillian description of this country during the war and not futuristic.
Newspeak is definately the best thing in the book - and the dumbing down of the people by control of the language has already happened - innit?
Have you ever read Farenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury ( not to be confused with any stupid conspriracy type Farenheit titles ) - it is set in an unnamed totalitarian state where books and the written word is banned - the hero ( or rather anti-hero ) Montag is a fireman - he goes around SETTING FIRE to people's houses found with books! In this future world most places are fireproof so there is no need for a convention fireman. He becomes curious and keeps a book instead of burning it........
Also in the story is the Mechanical Hound - there's a regular T.V. programme showing the hound being released and inexorably tracking down and killing some poor miscreant by lethal injection - the thing is - the miscreant isn't necessarily a criminal - it's anybody but the people are simply told he's a criminal - sound familar?
Ray Bradbury formed the idea of recreational drugs in his futureworld and overdose detox on demand, interactive soapoperas on wall sized T.V.'s that turn most housewives into mindless automatons - I'd say that this was truly prophetic!
1stclassalan
Well-Known Member
If you research the Nuremburg Trials - I think you will find that they were only successful in that they provided a legal format for hanging the first batch of folk to go through them - these included some lesser miscreants - by the time they got around to guys like Rudolf Hess sentences were commuted to long spells in prison - so not the same "justice" as you maintain. A show trial is what it is - a show trial - the outcome has usually been decided before it starts.
Prisoners in Guantanamo have not been convicted without fair trial - they are on extended remand - you will find people in Belmarsh banged up for similiar amounts of time, their trials continually postponed. The folk in Belmarsh weren't found wandering about in a foriegn warzone without good excuse and forthe most part confine themselves to robbing banks and such rather than terrorising the world.
1stclassalan
Well-Known Member
Islam is a fairly modern religion - it began with the prophet Mohammed ( great blessings be upon him ) during our Middle Ages - I think you will find that Eygptians had been embalming for about three thousand years by then!
You're quite correct otherwise.
EAST KENT
Well-Known Member
Oh and those brave and honourable Seals shot an unarmed man
Hanno Verian
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but get real....
Firstly..we can only guess at the circumstances in which he was killed, it may not have been possible to capture him alive, in the heat of a firefight you do not take chances.
Secondly..If he had been taken back to the US how long do you think it would be until Al Quaida were holding an airplane (or two..or three) full of passengers and wanting him freed.
There are a lot of fake dead OBL pics doing the rounds at the moment and an equal amount of crap being talked, yes in an ideal world OBL would be made to stand trial for his crimes, but this isn't the eutopia, for me better a dead martyr than a live revolutionary hero.
Alec Swan
...
Does anyone remember the Iranian Embassy siege? The circumstances were slightly different, I'll accept, but the outcome was the same, and rightly so.
If we accept that "Leaders" are rarely the martyrs, then it's surprising how the concept of an early demise seems to focus the mind! Perhaps those who promote wanton slaughter, feel that they're of more use to the "cause", but in their back room capacity.
Topping the willing martyrs is a waist of time, they're there for that anyway. Threatening the promoters with death, can often shorten the list of applicants!
Alec.
If we accept that "Leaders" are rarely the martyrs, then it's surprising how the concept of an early demise seems to focus the mind! Perhaps those who promote wanton slaughter, feel that they're of more use to the "cause", but in their back room capacity.
Topping the willing martyrs is a waist of time, they're there for that anyway. Threatening the promoters with death, can often shorten the list of applicants!
Alec.
JadeWisc
Well-Known Member
If you are naive enough to assume that the majority of Americans are jumping around in the streets shouting "USA! USA!" than your stupidity amazes me. Of course that is what they will be broadcasting ( that is news after all) when most people who feel like me about it all will hardly be running to the streets.
Your stupidity also amazes me if you you think he could have or would have been taken in alive. You are more than welcome to your opinions but please keep your ignorant and generalized comments about America as a whole to yourself. this is a big place remember filled with all kinds of people. Some with great minds and some with silly ones.
JadeWisc
Well-Known Member
I would love to see how you would have reacted in the scenario if you were there facing one of the most dangerous and unpredictable human beings on Earth. Those Seals are very brave and how awful of you to mock them. He may not have been holding a gun but if anyone thinks that compound was not filled with weapons and people ready to kill anyone who entered is naive. I also think many have given you great examples of why he really could not have been taken in alive.
I am certain there will still be loss of life and attacks after this but let's *hope* that it saves more than we lose as a result of the info obtained. Any death sadddens and sickens me, even the death of the people in the compound that day. Let's face it though, I doubt one of us could handle this situation ourselves and making these tough decisions sometimes has to be done. One will never know 100% what is the prefect move to make or what the final outcome will be. This very easily could have been a disaster of lots of dead American soldiers and then we would all be outraged about that. Give the damn seals some credit. They put their lives on the line in the hopes to make you and I safer
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junglefairy
Well-Known Member
An unarmed guy was shot in front of his kids. We could go round in circles for days and we would never agree, there are too many complex political, ethical and philosophical issues on which people will never see eye to eye. Tbh I can't really be bothered arguing pointlessly in circles, or maybe I just know when Im beat 
(yeah I know shouldn't start something you're not willing to finish, what can I say Im "naiive").
I'll just bow out with a quote from Ghandi "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".
(yeah I know shouldn't start something you're not willing to finish, what can I say Im "naiive").I'll just bow out with a quote from Ghandi "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".
JadeWisc
Well-Known Member
Keep looking at the pictures then
Because we all know that the excitable pictures and videos the media shows are a precise representation of America as a whole Jeez! really?
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JadeWisc
Well-Known Member
An unarmed guy was shot in front of his kids. We could go round in circles for days and we would never agree, there are too many complex political, ethical and philosophical issues on which people will never see eye to eye. Tbh I can't really be bothered arguing pointlessly in circles, or maybe I just know when Im beat
I'll just bow out with a quote from Ghandi "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".
I agree with you about the 'eye for an eye' ideal. It never solves anything. I am just glad I am not the one making these tough decisions though because I am not sure I could. My *hope* is that it is less about 'an eye for an eye' and more about trying to get rid of a small pocket of very dangerous people who want to see you, I and everything we love destroyed at all costs.
My rational brain tells me it is both though.
Hanno Verian
Well-Known Member
You seem to forget that a firefight was taking place a US helicopter had just been shot down, if you look at the news footage you can see the wreckage of it.
Its one thing to criticise from the comfort of an armchair in Kent, those men had no idea what they were going into, their instructions were to get him, and they did. Nothing has been published about their casualties, they went in to do a job, did it and returned, in the heat of the moment you do not take chances, this was not pulli9ng someone over to arrest them in the UK for having a defective light on their car, these guys went into an armed camp.
