Outline - does it matter??

[maisie06]

I have had an interesting read through the "how do you get your horse in an outline" thread. I have to ask does it actually matter, I mean, I know if you compete especially dressage there is a set criteria for the horses way of going according to scales of training etc but does it really matter for someone who just hacks?

When I used to ride I just used to hack as I hated the confinement of arenas and jumping wasn't my thing, but hacking along on a loose rein was so outline didn't come into it as long as the horse would stop, start, steer on command with ease I didn't give a fig where his or her head was! We had some amazing rides and my welshie was fantastic to hack,

I gave up riding for a few reasons, one being the roads are so dangerous and bridleways were often full of loose dogs with aggressive owners so hacking became a trauma rather than relaxing, then the winters seemed to get longer and wetter and I didn't feel I was doing the horse justice, the decision was made for me after he did himself an injury and I had him and his companion PTS

I think if I lived somewhere like Canada or the US where it was western trail riding I might ride again but in the UK nope!

 

[AmyMay]

Nope, absolutely not.

 

[eggs]

Outline doesn't matter but I think it is important that the horse can use him/herself correctly.

Slopping along on the forehand with a dipped back probably won't do them much good in the long term. I think hacking on a long rein is beneficial.

 

[shortstuff99]

It matters in the sense of is your horse working correctly to develop correct muscles to be able to carry a rider and work without injury.

 

[Orangehorse]

The theory is that the collected horse is using itself to best advantage, and in doing so will have a long and trouble-free ridden life, as described to be as "physiotherapy for the horse." This doesn't mean an outline as in a dressage competition, as a western horse can work in an outline with no bit contact at all - and I have a lovely photo of a western rider doing the most gorgeous collected canter with no mouth contact at all.

Of course, introduce the concept of "competition" and "best marks" and just physiotherapy goes out of the window.

No it doesn't matter if you like to just go out for hacks, but a well schooled horse will be a better ride.

 

[TPO]

It matters in the sense of is your horse working correctly to develop correct muscles to be able to carry a rider and work without injury.

This, "correct" matters because that's the optimum way for a horse to become strong enough to carry us and do what we ask.

But how you get there is another thing as so many people looking, and gadgets, for getting there quickly.

In general I don't think enough is known or understood by the general horse owning public about anatomy, function, conditioning, fitness or the why they do what they do.

Gillian Higgins Horses Inside Out are spot on I think for this kind of thing. Educational without being overwhelming. I saw a demo by her recently and was pleasantly surprised at how good it was. I sort of just expected it to be a basic anatomy lesson, which she covers too, but she spoke a lot about posture and correct conditioning

 

[milliepops]

potentially adds to your control too which may be relevant for some horses My WB evades the rider when he spooks by hollowing and running off. riding "in an outline" so to speak keeps him in a position where i have most influence via the bit.

Gillian Higgins books are great

 

[TPO]

potentially adds to your control too which may be relevant for some horses My WB evades the rider when he spooks by hollowing and running off. riding "in an outline" so to speak keeps him in a position where i have most influence via the bit.

Thats a good point. I bought a TB who had been "produced" with that horrific contraption the pessoa. Added to the carnage was thst they didn't fit or use it correctly but he looked pretty eith his nose tucked in. The end result was a horse that would drop behind all contact and there were at times nothing thst I could do to influence him. It was also all about the front and being "in an outline" but he had no concept of leg. Partly because he was sharp and forward I'm guessing he scared them into keeping legs off but teaching/getting him in front of the leg made him more correct and then his neck lengthened with nose going out naturally instead of to his chest. It made him rideable

 

[oldie48]

I've generally found that horses that are "through" are much more rideable and certainly more comfortable. MP also makes a really good point, it helps hugely with control, should you need it and they are much less likely to trip if they are off the forehand.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Funnily enough I had a conversation about this with a trainer on Saturday. My horse has always been a little weak behind the saddle. I think it's his general makeup. Trainer asked if I hack alot and I said yes. He said how do you hack. I replied on buckle end, it's our relaxing time. He suggests we do 60/40. 40% work correctly on a hack. It keeps muscles working and in condition. Horse will get a shock next hack!!

 

[SEL]

I think understanding what a proper outline is and how a horse should move is really important (not least because it means you're more likely to spot a lameness issue) - but so many people want an outline by screwing the horses head down that I'd prefer to see slopping along on the forehand than that. Its a bit like the happy hacker post recently - not everyone wants to know how to ride a horse "correctly" (& there's a million opinions on "correct" anyway).

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

potentially adds to your control too which may be relevant for some horses My WB evades the rider when he spooks by hollowing and running off. riding "in an outline" so to speak keeps him in a position where i have most influence via the bit.

Gillian Higgins books are great

Exactly what my Arab's do ?

 

[honetpot]

Our old pony liked to go with his nose poked out in front, went around corner with no bend, but was ridden in a simple snaffle and anyone would ride him, and was a very novice ride. He was an 'if only' pony in that he could do a perfectly average Prelim 7, jump a course of 80cm, but would never go much further, but if he had done all of these we wouldn't have been able to buy him, and I doubt if he would have been happier.
He was completely obedient, safe in traffic, could be hunted by a child, and he worked until he was twenty three. His confirmation was such he found it hard to work from behind, and years of being ridden by beginners made him one sided, and as he got older and my children wanted him to, 'work properly', it was unfair to ask him, because for him, it was hard work.
I think for the sort of riders I see at PC and RC, a ride that is safe obedient and fun is more important, than if it goes correctly, it's something to aspire to but having watched some spurred double bridled 'dressage'a horse looking the part, sidling down the road does not always mean obedient and in control.

 

[Caol Ila]

I hate the feeling of a horse hollowing its back and bracing against you, and that's not great for their long-term soundness, either. But if the horse is relaxed through its back and somewhat using its abs to support the rider, that's all that really matters.

When I'm hacking, I swap between asking for a connection and letting him potter along with his nose out in front. I don't want the outline to feel like a surprise when he goes in the school, and I'm trying to lose a huge under-neck muscle and get more of a topline.

 

[oldie48]

When I'm hacking, I swap between asking for a connection and letting him potter along with his nose out in front. I don't want the outline to feel like a surprise when he goes in the school, and I'm trying to lose a huge under-neck muscle and get more of a topline.

I think this is a good point, I also like to let the horse stretch on a hack, (it's good for his back and his relaxation) but then I pick him up again so that he gets used to it and doesn't go tense. I want it to be a normal part of hacking so if I see something ahead which might (or might not ) be a problem, it's no big deal. If you watch riders picking their horse up after the free walk, it's surprising how many horses jog or go tense and I think it may be because they anticipate being picked up with something happening.

 

[scats]

I feel you definitely have more control if a horse is ‘on the aids’. If they come out feeling particularly hot or looky, I do prefer to have them working correctly as I feel like I’ve got them a bit more and I can feel when they might do something untoward!
But I’m equally as guilty for letting them slop along on a hack, though, if they are feeling chilled.
I think a nice mix is a good thing.

 

[AntiPuck]

I am also mostly just a hacker, but I do care about how correctly my horse goes, because I can see the direct correlation between how strong and straight she is, and how she is able to perform normal tasks like stepping over things, going uphill using her back end properly, backing up easily, lifting feet, etc.

I don't focus so much on where her head is, usually we hack on a long-ish rein, but I pepper it with collected sections, leg yields and lateral moves around gates etc, and try to encourage her to stretch out and down, not to go like a giraffe even on the long rein. We also do lots of hill work, do core exercises (The Horses Inside Out page mentioned above is great for this), poles, etc.

I'm no expert at all, but my hope is that by focusing on strengthening and engaging the back end, and her back and body in general, the front will eventually fall into place as she develops the muscles needed to collect. It feels a bit chicken and egg at times, but I don't want to be asking her for something she isn't strong enough to perform.

 

[blitznbobs]

If you replace the word outline with ‘posture’ then i think it does matter. You ask a horse to carey even 10% of its body weight with poor posture then its going to do more damage than with good posture. Ask any weight lifter ‘good form/ posture’ prevents injury and allows you to lift heavier weights safer… so yes it matters — now what *is* good posture for a horse is open for debate and study but to say it doesnt matter is a fallacy.

 

[palo1]

I generally think that some work in a correct frame is hugely beneficial to a horse that is wanted for carrying a rider. Developing those muscles is good horsemanship in the same way that doing pilates/stretching/yoga etc is generally good for people if done sympathetically and correctly. I MUCH prefer to ride a horse that can be worked athletically as the feeling is really different to one that cannot carry itself in strength and balance. The unmistakable feeling of a horse using itself correctly is wonderful and for me, can be joyful. You have a great deal more opportunity to communicate safely as well as do some good for the horse. Hacking on a long rein is fab too; like going for lovely long hikes but I think we all feel 'better'/stronger etc for some gymnastic work too. Most of us can find a happy balance for our horses between not asking too much at all and developing their rider-carrying muscles I reckon. I would be really sad if I thought I could never have that powerful and connected but light and responsive feeling that working correctly in a sort of disciplined way brings.

 

[catkin]

I think this is a good point, I also like to let the horse stretch on a hack, (it's good for his back and his relaxation) but then I pick him up again so that he gets used to it and doesn't go tense. I want it to be a normal part of hacking so if I see something ahead which might (or might not ) be a problem, it's no big deal. If you watch riders picking their horse up after the free walk, it's surprising how many horses jog or go tense and I think it may be because they anticipate being picked up with something happening.

I do this as part of schooling, it's a thank you to your horse

 

[ponynutz]

Correct frame matters so, yes, outline does matter.

"outline" as we know it, does not.

 

[spotty_pony]

Outline means different things for different horses. For instance our Friesian works very differently to my Appaloosa naturally. The Friesian is very upright with a high head carriage but I have taught him to work long and low
so he is stretching for a contact and working over his back. I look for the correct swing from behind and use the reins to ‘catch the energy’ which results in a nice soft outline. Puggy (Appaloosa) has always been heavy on his forehand as he is built more like a quarter horse being croup high and so has always found working in an outline extremely difficult and prefers a more western style of riding. My chiropractor once commented on his ‘amazing topline’ and asked if I schooled him a lot. My answer was ‘I never school him’ - it was all built from carrying himself correctly for his type out hacking and hunting.

Teaching self carriage is more important in my opinion than concentrating on an outline.