Outside the Box

[Goldenstar]

Can you give him some extra work ?
Tired horses are easier .
Try to hack only in company for a while.
It’s important to try to make a plan and then not over think things like this .Of course that’s easier said than done .
Try to look at it as a phase you are working on .

 

[CanteringCarrot]

The following another horse thing is interesting to me because my horse does not respond to that. If he's scared he doesn't give a fig of the other horse went there/went through/didn't get eaten/whatever. He'll only do whatever when he's confident in himself and his riders guidance. So it's quite interesting. He's not a confident horse, but isn't easily swayed by "peer pressure" either. On the other hand it's kind of nice because usually when other horses spook he's just sort of like "what?" and is more focused on us rather than others spooking or running around.

At competitions he's very easy. I think when we're away it's not "home" so he's open to things being different, whereas at home if something changes it can put him on alert. However, when we had a comp at home for the first time last year he was super relaxed about it, so maybe he just has "competition mode" installed now, idk.

They're interesting creatures.

When mine is tired he can be a bit more difficult because he turns into the cranky kid that wants sleep but can't sleep and is going to be difficult about anything you want to do. Or he'll just shut down and not truly process anything. Tired does not equal relaxed and receptive.

 

[Peglo]

@CanteringCarrot mine is the opposite. She would run through fire if her pals were doing it. She’s so much more confident with other horses. But it’s also handy as when we’ve been showing or doing lessons she watches the other horses and then copies what they’ve done. Especially good when all the other horses are lined up and standing still. She just follows suit. But on the other hand as you say, if someone spooks, she spooks. Even if she doesn’t know what they are spooking at. ? I love how different they all are.

 

[SibeliusMB]

Urgh. Hacked today with a buddy and he was as spooky as he’s been in a while. Like how he was last year. He’s been so bombproof-feeling these last few months. Feels like a setback for our partnership and I feel stupid for not standing up for him more during the lesson.

Been there friend. It can be an awful feeling, but don't beat yourself up about it. It's frustrating because you put your trust in a trainer and they should not be putting you and your horse in a position to regress. But once you get away from the "horse must comply at all times because we say so" mentality, it can be hard to find trainers that have embraced progressive thinking and more enlightened, horse-friendly methods. Treat it as an awakening. You know now where some of this thresholds are and what happens when you exceed them.

Tired does not equal relaxed and receptive.

I agree with this. @Caol Ila if you want to build back Fig's trust and confidence, I wouldn't advise trying to wear him down to a point that you can effectively force him to do something he's clearly not comfortable with. I think taking the indoor/scary corner entirely out of the equation for now, and not focusing on whether or not he can deal with that would be good as you build him back up to where he was, confidence wise. You were obviously doing well, go back to what you know and listen to him as you have been doing and don't have an agenda when it comes to the indoor.

My guy is sometimes LESS secure in a group depending on the group dynamics. He marches along just fine when we hack alone, if he's insecure about something I just give him time to observe it and reassure him, and he marches right on eventually and stays relaxed. However, if we go out hacking with a greener horse who isn't as confident, you can feel Sig getting more insecure because the other horse is looking at stuff. Every horse is different.

 

[planete]

You can't never make mistakes, you can just learn from them. The stupid option would have been not listening to Fin and your gut and carrying on just bullying him through it the next time.

I feel like I'm saying this every day recently (to two different friends about two completely different situations ?) but you should be able to trust "professionals" to know better than you and spotting when they don't, or when it just isn't working, isn't easy!

I have sacked three instructors so far who were either plain ignorant ( side-reins on a green pony who has never worn them, straight into canter = bolt!), too indecisive (he can take the mick for England if the riding is tentative), or too tough (hard slap on the side of W's head for trying to nip from nerves, after which he started biting in earnest). I now have lessons on a schoolmaster when I can afford it and plan my own schooling sessions with my pony until he is more 'normal'.

 

[Caol Ila]

I thought about our ride yesterday more. The broom seed pods were popping (that's what my friend said) and it sounded like the brush was on fire. It was weird. I've never heard that before. I was looking for the fire until my friend said it was the broom. Fin was actually relaxed and happy until the seed popping started. He must know fire from the estate. They'll have burnt heather and stuff, and he's quite wary when the neighbours burn sh1t or have a barbeque. Maybe I was overthinking? Horses react in the moment.

I'll park riding in the indoor for now. Maybe wander into it in hand with pony nuts and his favourite brush. Start there to reset everything, then do what Warwick Schiller would do when I ride in it again. I do know all this stuff. I guess I felt trapped too - knowing what the right thing was, but stuck, unable to do it. I obviously should have womanned up and stood up to the trainer and said that we should just work him in the parts of the arena he's okay with, and I'll deal with the rest in time. Don't know how she would have taken that, given she thinks I'm "letting him get away with it" and doesn't really "believe" in the natural horsemanship stuff, but it would have been the right thing to do.

Been there friend. It can be an awful feeling, but don't beat yourself up about it. It's frustrating because you put your trust in a trainer and they should not be putting you and your horse in a position to regress. But once you get away from the "horse must comply at all times because we say so" mentality, it can be hard to find trainers that have embraced progressive thinking and more enlightened, horse-friendly methods. Treat it as an awakening. You know now where some of this thresholds are and what happens when you exceed them.

I honestly don't know of any trainer in this area who has embraced progressive thinking and horse-friendly methods while helping you become a better dressage rider. The one who started Fin might have been such a person, but she lives in Australia now. That's a hell of a comute. I'm open to suggestions.

With the group thing, Fin is more secure with a confident horse, but spooky and insecure with a nervous one. He's much better alone or with OH on foot than he is with an anxious horse. He feeds off human and horse energy. I can settle him oftentimes by thinking calm, happy thoughts, and OH is always calm and happy, which is why Fin likes him.

Hermosa is more like CC's horse, unsurprisingly. I have been out with another horse having a complete meltdown, and she gave zero f*cks. She doesn't behave any differently regardless of whether I'm leading her out alone or with another horse. If she gets worried about something, she looks to the humans, not the horses. The first time we shared the arena with someone (I'm usually at the yard alone), she got a bit distracted by them, but got over that and now ignores other horses there too.

 

[lme]

I used to ride a naturally anxious spooky horse in an indoor where the doors could be an issue. As I am creaky, I need help getting on, so horse and I often used to amble round (with me on foot) for a few minutes while waiting for my trainer to arrive. We would meander around the school, stand at the doors and watch what was going on outside and I would chat away to him. He was considerably less spooky when we had the chance to do this. Until reading this thread, I didn't put 2 and 2 together as to why.

 

[Caol Ila]

As I was working with Hermosa yesterday, I was thinking how happy I felt being in total control of her training. Nobody pushing me or her, and I'm pottering along making her feel as comfortable as possible with each stage of the backing process. I'm more conservative than a lot of people, but the horse is making progress, and after weaning the foal, it has been pretty stress-free. We are just having a nice time.

God knows I need the riding instruction because I have a million bad habits in the saddle, but the reason I have not had lessons in a million years is that I was worried that any given trainer would not jive with my philosophy towards training horses and/or would push me into asking for things in a way that I felt was too harsh or detrimental to my horse's general happiness with the work. I hate being right.

 

[Carrottom]

I agree with you about lessons, I keep telling my instructor (also a friend) that she needs to tell me how to ride better and that will benefit the the horse.

 

[maya2008]

Many years ago, my instructor used to recommend basically avoiding the problem until they stopped worrying about it. For example, if horse thinks there are gremlins at C, then cut the long side short and turn so you stay 10m away from C (or the closest you can be without horse reacting). Then, over time, you gradually get closer. It works. So does getting off and investigating ‘C’ together.

 

[Highmileagecob]

You have a native with the instincts of a feral - he has bonded with you, and takes it upon himself to look after you - not the other way round unfortunately. No real advice to add. I think I would take him in the school a few times on a loose lead rope, have a wander round 'looking' at things, look with both eyes on both sides of the horse, take a picnic with you, few pony nuts for him, just be totally relaxed and not bothered about the scary corner. Maybe get one or two people to join you after half an hour or so and just stand around near scary corner, chatting. Once you have him relax you are half way there. Don't suppose there is a mirror he has caught sight of is there?

 

[Caol Ila]

Went totally outside the box today. The headstall for my bosal arrived and I finally got to use it. We played about in the arena quickly, to be sure we had steering and brakes, then we went on a short hack. He was very relaxed and happy with it.

Once he gets established in the bosal, he’ll school in an outline but on no contact. He figured out how to give to it within two minutes. Maybe he wants to be a western horse.

More seriously, the different feel of a new piece of tack seemed to reset his mind a bit.

 

[Highmileagecob]

He looks very relaxed and happy!

 

[Caol Ila]

He looks very relaxed and happy!

I thought the bosal would suit him. Took me ages to get it. He works better on light/no contact. If he's happy and relaxed (in other words, not in the indoor) he comes in a beautiful outline in his English hackamore with a light touch, but then no continuous contact. The Western hackamore is designed for precisely that sort of riding. I spent just under a year trying to get this horse to accept a bit and dressage contact. He tucks his nose in, but he does not lift or soften through his back, and you have to deal with the intermittent head tossing. He doesn't fuss at all in the hackamore (either one), and he willingly offers engagement and impulsion. He really would make a sweet, if unconventional, Bridle horse.

 

[Caol Ila]

Took Fin into the indoor in hand today. Gave him some pony nuts, then we hung out on the scary long side. He would go to the rail so long as I was in front of him. He believes in the theory of "you don't have to run faster than the bear; you just have to run faster than your friends." If you are a horse and your friend is a human, your odds are good. The bear in question was a vending machine. I knew it was there, but I had never considered it at horse eye-level before. There are a few worrying things in that corner, but his eye was often fixed on that. It makes loud whirring noises, which change cadence and frequencies. When riding, I haven't noticed the noises. I did a little bit of his natural horsemanship groundwork, which his previous trainer drilled into him, so he's good at it. I'll give her that. She transferred precisely none of that lightness and communcation to the under saddle work, but anyway, it's a useful default when things get hairy. Mostly, we hung out, and I pointed to the M&Ms in the vending machine and said it provides nice things for humans.

We can never be too aware of moments when we find ourselves sucked into confronation due to this antideluvian mindset that the horse is trying to get one over on us. Sometimes, they need boundaries set, plainly, but the art of horsemanship is knowing when to tell them to knock it off, and when to listen and do things in a different way. And not assuming that they want to get out of doing whatever it is just to pi$$ us off. That's how Hermosa fell out with the farrier. She objected to him holding her foot between his legs, but at first she complained in a way that wasn't too dangerous. Gently rocking back on her hindquarters while trying to ease her foot free. When he held onto her foot for grim death because he could not let her "win," she escalated to vertical rearing. She had hopped backwards for about 5m before going straight up. Ample time to figure out Plan B.

 

[Highmileagecob]

I know the way to my cob's confidence has always been through his stomach! Cue to take pony nuts in a crackly packet, wander over to the machine with Fin and see if you can get him to stay near you whilst the machine is activated. You open the M&M, he gets his packet of pony nuts. On the other hand, it may change your indoor lessons as he works out the reward system! It's good to find other people who are willing to see things from a horse's point of view, you'll get there!

 

[maya2008]

I would also feed a treat to go with the whirring noises, get him to stand closer for pony nuts, and basically use food to get him to associate the vending machine with good things.

 

[Roxylola]

Fwiw, although I think he does clinics at a venue rather than single lessons, Charlie Hutton does teach in Scotland and posted something just yesterday about listening to the horse, he might be worth looking up.

 

[Caol Ila]

He’s back to normal chilled out service hacking out. Took a few rides to settle him. Some horses are forgiving of mistakes, but this one less so. Always gotta remember that.

He was happy in the outdoor. Trotted a course of poles on the ground between funky looking jump wings yesterday.

We will work on the indoor at our own time and pace.

 

[TPO]

Fwiw, although I think he does clinics at a venue rather than single lessons, Charlie Hutton does teach in Scotland and posted something just yesterday about listening to the horse, he might be worth looking up.

He's at Provanston in Fintry quite regularly. I don't think that's that's million miles away from CI's yard. Pretty sure I drove through Fintry to get to CIs yard when friends were there.

 

[Caol Ila]

I know people who have had lessons with him, and he is expensive.

My trainer also posts quite a lot about listening to the horse. I have a lesson booked for Wednesday. Don't really want it, but I feel like I'm committed. I've deconstructed my English hackamore and sent the shanks away to be installed in his custom hackamore, so my tack choices are the bosal, which is far too weird for dressage people, or the bit, which my horse tolerates but doesn't really like. If we use the outdoor, I'm sure he'll be fine, but it mght require an awkward conversation with trainer explaiing why, "He should go where you tell him" isn't a particularly useful mentality with this horse.

When I tell people he was feral, I am not always sure it registers. Or they just don't know that it's an equine with a different mindset than your average domestic horse. People use feral to describe horses like my other one, who was sort of handled and interacted with people but not taught any skills, or jokingly, to mean something that has no manners. Not wild, like a bloody mustang. My horse acts like any domestic horse most of the time, so it's easy to shrug that off, but those sharpened wild instincts are still there, along with his eight years of no human contact. The horse does what I want - 95% of the time - out of his kindness and generosity. We both know he doesn't have to.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Maybe Monty Roberts way of handling horses could be a useful adjunct to Finn's life lessons. Have you taken Finn through join up? Must admit I was sceptical when I first came across it, but saw his methods transform a bolshy, suspicious Fell pony into something close to a reasonable riding pony, and less like a ticking time bomb.

 

[Caol Ila]

He’s had that done within an inch of his life. Spent two months at a “natural horsemanship“ yard before I bought him. His groundwork has always been flawless (under saddle, not so much when I first got him... baffled as to what the yard did in terms of ridden work because he did not do things like steer). I've been told that the Dallas ferals in general are naturally respectful of space, and he's been drilled to death in yielding to a human's space. You shift one foot towards him, and he backs up. I had to untrain some of that because it was almost impossible to lunge him. He'd just reverse or spin around on his forehand to keep facing you. Someone had clearly shanked him with the lead rope whenever he did not face the human and back away from them.

Like I said, he will be lead into the scary corner but not, at this point, be ridden. We will get there.

I grew up with this so-called natural horsemanship stuff and have done a lot of join-up in my time. Back when it was en vogue. A lot of it still is a natural part of my own horsemanship, but I think there's an aggressive side to it - the leadrope shaking/shanking and overdoing join-up. I feel like Warwick Schiller - holding on to what's good about that style of training, but letting go of the more aggressive, antagonistic pieces unless you really need them for safety. It's lucky for my pony that I have that background, because I knew what the trainers did and what I had to patiently undo so he would lunge like a normal bloody horse. Some people would have assumed the spinning-and-facing was cheekiness and punished him. But it was him doing what he'd been trained to do. They can learn both. My youngster, who has the benefit of only being trained by me - knows the difference between lunging/long reining cues and spin-and-face-me cues. It's pretty easy for her to distinguish between the two.

Anyway, in the last decade, more evidence has come to light suggesting that join-up doesn't do what proponents say - it isn't establishing the human's dominance the way horses establish dominance - and it can be very coercive and stressful. The best study was one where they got horses to join-up to remote control cars, showing it's the result of conditioning (I follow the thing; the thing stops chasing me) rather than some kind of herd hierarchy nonsense. @stangs can find the studies showing it's not the panacea it was once proposed to be. A horse who is already "joined" with the human won't understand why it's being chased away. It has its purpose - it's useful for rank, bolshy horses or ones who don't like being caught. But I would not do it to a horse who has perfect ground manners and comes to me in the field.

 

[SEL]

**cough** does vending machine do polos? ?Pretty sure you could teach one of mine to operate a vending machine if there were sweeties

 

[planete]

Re. join-up. I have only used join up once with a barely handled New Forest who thought it was a great idea to charge me when I went into his field holding a head collar (I had just got him on loan as a companion). It worked remarkably well and he was respectful and easy to catch afterwards but I would never use it on Woody who was fear aggressive with humans when I first got him. I prefer liberty training for him and any horse who needs more confidence.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Join up didn't even work for Monty Roberts when he tried it on the wrong horses, though he carried on talking the talk as if it was working . Ever the showman.

This was based on my experience of taking the late chestnut git to Stoneleigh when Horse and Hound first brought MR over for a demo in the late 80s. The well handled horses were alarmed and flustered at being sent away. My horse, who was a thuggish and over confident 3 yo just shrugged and got on with it, but the more sensitive sorts hated it, and it was not all helpful for them.

It did work much better for the hardly touched horses.

The rather knowledgable audience were supposed to believe what MR said was happening rather than the evidence of their own eyes, apparently.

 

[stangs]

I was summoned

The radio-controlled car study here, demonstrating that join up is just behaviour shaping using operant conditioning, specifically R-. The whole 'herd leader' nonsense was just good marketing. I should think anyone who observes horses would have realised they don't tend to chase each other in circles until one follows the other, partially because that's not how equine hierarchies/movement initiation works and partially because that's a huge waste of energy. Snaking and agnostic behaviours that one could argue establish dominance look nothing like join up either. I do wish I knew what Monty Roberts observed that made him think it was natural, because I've certainly seen nothing of the sort and I've watched a fair few feral and semi-feral herds.

More criticism on join up, and the thought process behind it, below.

Spoiler

• "A number of studies (Warren-Smith and McGreevy, 2008b, Koster et al., 2009) clearly show that, when alone in the round-pen, there is no evidence that unfamiliar horse dyads pursue each other and demand “respect,” indicating that trainers claiming to interact with the horse as a herd leader or herd member are misinterpreting the horse's behavior."
• "the circular track of the round-pen means that the trainer is always able to increase, decrease, or maintain his distance to the horse with only a step or 2 steps. Paradoxically, this latter feature is also one of the negative aspects of lunging and round-pen use because it makes it extremely easy for the trainer to induce excessive levels of arousal in the horse. In the hands of an inexperienced trainer, a horse can easily be overwhelmed because it is difficult not to chase the horse."
• "Wilk and Janczarek (2015) found significant breed differences in head-lowering behavior and concluded that these responses were not a useful assessment tool in all horses."
• "Round-pen training and lunging are often the first context in which horses are formally educated, and it is important that these experiences in these contexts are not accompanied by chasing, elicitation of the flight response, and excessive arousal levels. Learning appears to be optimized when arousal levels are minimally elevated (Fenner et al., 2017)."
• "Space, like other resources, is something that horses value more or less, and there are simpler reasons than lack of “respect” for horses' lack of compliance with the trainer's commands in a round-pen. None of the possible reasons indicate the need for excessive arousal levels or so-called “dominant” body postures. It is possible that fear is mistaken for disrespect and pushing the fearful horse away, thereby further increasing arousal levels, is unlikely to alter the behavior. Such “dominant” body postures have been found to discourage horses from approaching trainers and others, which may further exacerbate the flight instinct (Smith et al., 2018)." (So, in this case, where Caol Ila's dealing with a fear-based behaviour, join up certainly wouldn't help.)
• "An additional risk, unlikely to be immediately apparent, arises when the trainer assumes that the horse has learned the lessons that the trainer believes are being taught. If the horse has been inadvertently chased and becomes fearful but shows a decline in flightiness, it is possible that the horse has not been behaviorally conditioned but is either too tired to respond or expressing a passive coping strategy because active coping strategies such as escape have been thwarted."
• "The implication that anyone can rapidly change a horse's behavior through round-pen training puts many horses at risk from injury and can catalyze myriad behavioral problems resulting from poor training techniques."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1558787817302289

• "Chasing [within the equine ethogram, aka natural horse behaviour] is usually of short duration and, during resource contests, usually ceases once sufficient distance between members of the dyad is achieved. This contrasts with RPT, where the horse may be chased or required to maintain a flight response for up to 15 min (Roberts, 1997). The horse cannot escape and, by merely moving across the pen, the human can keep up with it at all times."
• "Warren-Smith and McGreevy (2008) and Koster et al. (2009) found that young horses were most likely to lick and chew when facing away from an older mare when co-located in a round pen. This evidence seems to counter the suggestion that these are intended as signals.... There are also anecdotal veterinary reports that that non-ingestive oral movements which occur after exposure to a novel or fear inducing stimulus may be behavioural evidence of sympathetic attenuation as central nervous system control shifts the from sympathetic to parasympathetic dominance (McDonnell, 2005). This hypothesis requires validation. However if correct it would suggest that the non-ingestive oral movements performed by horses during RPT training may be of physiological than communicative origin and they constitute evidence of stress in the horse undergoing the technique."
• "the data from observational studies of equid behaviour and testing of specific components of RPT techniques do not support many of the interpretations of RPT offered by the reviewed NH trainers."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0168159114000811

 

[Caol Ila]

I knew I'd get a good lit review from you.

Before it was studied, and we all thought it was The Right Thing, I did it quite a few times with my old mare. You could see from her body language that she thought it was bullsh1t, but thankfully she was tough-minded, strong mare who had a lot of tolerance for and a sense of hunour about humans being idiots. A good thing, because I often was.

Fin has very little tolerance for lousy horsemanship. It took him a few days to get back on his game after the lesson that started this thread.

 

[maya2008]

I do wish I knew what Monty Roberts observed that made him think it was natural, because I've certainly seen nothing of the sort and I've watched a fair few feral and semi-feral herds.

The 'driving away until they give in' element of it I have seen in herds, most recently mine when little Dartmoor yearling came to join us. Our other newbies have been fairly uneventful meetings - they arrive, get chased a bit, show submissive body language, all is well. Coblet didn't even do that when he arrived 4 years ago, as running seemed like too much effort, so he just went all submissive as soon as they approached! Little Dartmoor filly though, has abominable social skills and didn't seem to know HOW to submit. So she got chased into next week, again and again and again. She wasn't allowed near the others, and was kept away. If she came closer, she got chased again.

I much prefer Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling's leading exercises to get respect and trust. Easy, no need for an enclosed area and extremely effective - everything a person with just a field who habitually buys young horses could want!

 

[Highmileagecob]

Think we have to remember that Monty was dealing with wild mustangs when he developed this technique. It is less effective with well handled/bonded horses as they have no idea why you are pushing them away. Possibly you are a lot further on training wise than you think - when I read some of your posts about past history, you have come a hell of a way with Finn! Congratulations are in order!