Outside the Box

[Caol Ila]

Debated whether to post or not... It's mostly me putting thoughts together.

I've been having lessons on Fin with a dressage trainer, and we've been using the barn's indoor arena. Fin has hardly been in the indoor because liveries usually don't have much access to it. 99% of the time, the riding school uses it. There is a corner and half a long side of the arena which he finds worrying. It looks weird, with a low wall, offices, tables, chairs, gates. It looks a lot like a mustang race, in fact (with tables). He throws himself to the inside and veers away from it, plowing through your rein and leg aids. Trainer's advice is to not let him throw me out of position (fair) and to somehow make him go to the rail. Easier than done! This has been going on since we started the lessons. It is not improving. He anticipates an argument, so tenses up even more before he swerves away from the scary corner. Trainer has the fairly old school view that the pony is being naughty because he can, because I'm letting him blow through my leg aid. "He's playing games," she said. I don't believe horses generally operate that way, and this one usually doesn't. But I came out of the lesson feeling very down and inept, although I felt a bit better after Fin accepted being hosed off without any drama, which was something we had failed at last year. So that was something.

He works like a dream in the outdoor arena. We could not use it yesterday because there was a jumping clinic happening at the same time as my lesson, and anyway, the trainer was insistent that I not "give in" to the horse. "He has to work where you tell him." I've told her all about the horse's background, but I think a lot of people can't get their heads around the whole feral-until-he-was-eight thing - what that actually means doesn't really register - and think he's taking the pi$$ when he's saying, "Humans are weird, and I'm not sure about this, and that part of the indoor definitely looks like the races they chased me into."

The trainer is very good at telling you when to apply an aid, a half-halt, and improving your position, and she has helped us sort out a few major things like turn on the forehand and cantering in the school. But when it comes to problem-solving, I find it more effective to work with the horse and approach the issue in a more roundabout way, if need be. As an ex-feral, his fight/flight response is very well-developed, so things go better when we trigger neither. And if whatever you're doing is not working, change your method. Reframe the narrative. Ask, what would Mark Rashid or Tik Maynard do. I've brought both my horses along fairly well without major confrontations or arguments. That includes hacking alone, in Fin's case. It is a bit frustrating that these are the first real arguments I have had with this horse, and it's when I'm riding with a trainer. I can't help but feel that if I'd been working by myself in the indoor and encountered the 'scary corner' problem, I would have gone straight to my horsemanship stuff and fixed it before it escalated. You'd hope the trainer would help you ride and train better!

If I can get into the indoor in the next couple weeks (also easier said than done), I'll dial it right back to groundwork, reinstall the software, then use my natural horsemanship-type techniques to help him learn that the scary long side isn't scary, and we are not going to put him in the mustang race. Some of the Western trainers are just way ahead of and more horse-centered on this stuff than most (all) of the dressage trainers I've found here. If I can't make the headway I need on that, then I'll ask for my lesson to be in the outdoor. She's a great trainer for the actual dressage, and I think we will get more out of it and have a nicer time if he is relaxed, happy, and forwards.

Burbling thoughts....And I'm the process queen, so writing them helps. Horses can be complicated beasties.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I agree with basically all of your thoughts and observations here.

My horse was being an oddball about some light that was being cast on the whiteboards (dressage arena) that were set up in the indoor. He was very persistent about it. Sometimes I felt like he was expecting a fight of sorts before we got to it, but I was like "Dude, I haven't even said anything yet." Nor do I usually fight him. I don't know if he was being blinded or what when he had to go past them. Not like he hasn't been ridden within many whiteboards.

Generally I find his comfortable distance away from said spooky object and gently leg yield my way over to it, one step at a time, each time we go around, and soon enough we're using the whole arena again. I just keep calm and ride like it's no big deal. This usually works. I focus hard on inside leg to outside rein. I do a volte or two (or a spiral, or shoulder in) before I get to the spooky area if I feel as though he's not with me, in that respect.

When it wasn't working with the boards of doom I did ground work before my next ride. I got him keg yielding, turning on the haunches and forehand, halting, backing up, and taking the lead and changing speed within the walk. With that "pre flight check" we ventured over to the scary whiteboards. I made him take the lead (I basically drive him from his side, sort of where my leg would be while riding) and spoke to him as we went past and kept my driving aid on. As soon as he was confidentially taking the lead by the scary object, I got on him and it was no longer a big deal. So I definitely support sorting the issue with some ground work. I essentially "rode" our walk warm up from the ground. He's quite experienced, educated, and has no prior feral experience, but can be a bit hyper aware (but I'd be surprised if he could survive in the wild, tbh).

Not sure what point I'm getting at here, other than I agree with trying to work with the horse and so some groundwork. Most dressage trainers here just want to fight and force, and I'm not about that life. Then the rest of my ride is tense and I'm trying to put the lid on a pot that is boiling over.

 

[milliepops]

Different but similar situation here. Most lessons at my yard are done inside. the indoor has mirrors so even in nice weather it's more useful than the outdoor. However, there is a Scary Door 3/4 of the way down a long side that I've had a few issues with over the years (have taken 7 horses there over the time i've been with this trainer). Door is big enough to get a tractor through. The door used to lead to another small indoor, now that has been converted to an indoor yard, so there are strange noises and people/horses coming and going through it.

Oh my. the drama my loan horse puts up about The Door. on the right rein you approach off a corner so i generally am able to get him around my inside leg and going well. on the left rein it's approached from a longer straight stretch and he gets away from me, runs away to the inside, generally takes over and on one pleasant occasion, unceremoniously dumped me.

Said horse has got to the age of 8 without much in the way of consistent work. He is essentially a nice person, but I would say he has not been set up to succeed in his life, he had iffy ground manners and apart from being an excellent lunge horse, he didn't have a good understanding of "human asks x, you do y" at all really.

We are working exclusively outside until we have a better understanding of the ground rules. I don't want to bully him past the door, I can do that, but it means every session is 50% going nicely and 50% bullying, and each ride is the same. Ducking the issue for now gives me 100% of the time to train him in the way i want him to respond to me and outside things. we see cars going up the drive, dogs, wildlife, horses in the field next to the arena and so on, last night someone sat in a deckchair up the bank, horses go down the road, there is enough for us to work on without the complete attention annihilation of the door.

with mine, I do see it as essentially a submission issue, because i can't show him everything in the world that he will be worried by, and he does need to learn to just go where he's told basically. If he's ever going to do competitions then he will need to learn to go in arenas that have scary areas and do his work despite that. But there's no point going at it head on. We didn't have enough basic control established when i first started this, and we still don't... he's improving, but there are still times when his OMIGOD reaction overtakes his ability to follow instructions.

I'm still doing a bit of groundwork indoors now and then just so the whole space doesn't become an issue, and i will tackle the riding by having a good session outside and doing the last 5 mins (hopefully!) inside on a day when his mind is tuned up nicely.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I totally agree with you I have 2 spooky Arab's they look at everything and anything even a person suddenly appearing can loose thete concentration.

Example for today horse been back in work 3 weeks after 8 months off his hot to ride finding everything very exciting and often scary, go in outdoor school and someone has left 2 chairs and 2 bright yellow plastic boxes under the trees it blew his brain.

I tend to cut that bit off to start with then when I feel like his calmed down and listening and off my aids I creep closer to it, but I tend to do a little leg yeild or change the pace to get his attention on me, and usually after a while I get past it without too much fuss.

I spend a lot of time throwing in certain bits of lateral work to help me keep there mind busy and it works.

I am a believer that the session should be calm and as stress free as possible so if I need to avoid bits of the school I do, I do aim to go past it though but I use a quick neck scratch and voice praise when I manage it.

 

[Caol Ila]

My horse was being an oddball about some light that was being cast on the whiteboards (dressage arena) that were set up in the indoor. He was very persistent about it. Sometimes I felt like he was expecting a fight of sorts before we got to it, but I was like "Dude, I haven't even said anything yet." Nor do I usually fight him. I don't know if he was being blinded or what when he had to go past them. Not like he hasn't been ridden within many whiteboards.

He's now expecting the fight as we approach Scary Corner, which is worse than he was when we started riding in there with the trainer. I definitely made it worse by trying to wrestle him around, rather than backing off and going for a more non-confrontational method the moment he first said he had a problem. It's so difficult - almost impossible - to tell your trainer mid-lesson that you have a better way. You're right to not fight your guy.

When it wasn't working with the boards of doom I did ground work before my next ride. I got him keg yielding, turning on the haunches and forehand, halting, backing up, and taking the lead and changing speed within the walk. With that "pre flight check" we ventured over to the scary whiteboards. I made him take the lead (I basically drive him from his side, sort of where my leg would be while riding) and spoke to him as we went past and kept my driving aid on. As soon as he was confidentially taking the lead by the scary object, I got on him and it was no longer a big deal. So I definitely support sorting the issue with some ground work. I essentially "rode" our walk warm up from the ground. He's quite experienced, educated, and has no prior feral experience, but can be a bit hyper aware (but I'd be surprised if he could survive in the wild, tbh).

Yes, those are exactly the things I was thinking of doing from the ground. Also letting him stand in/near the scary place while getting treats (+R is highly effective with this horse), then do a bit of work in the non-scary place.

Last week, when I schooled him myself in the outdoor, he actually felt like a dressage horse. Very round, very forward, light off the leg, bending, using his hind end. He's like a different horse in the indoor. When he's in the part where he doesn't spook, he still isn't as forward and he wants to run around hollow, with his head in the air. Probably so he can look out for danger, since they can't see as well when they're in an outline.

We are working exclusively outside until we have a better understanding of the ground rules. I don't want to bully him past the door, I can do that, but it means every session is 50% going nicely and 50% bullying, and each ride is the same. Ducking the issue for now gives me 100% of the time to train him in the way i want him to respond to me and outside things. we see cars going up the drive, dogs, wildlife, horses in the field next to the arena and so on, last night someone sat in a deckchair up the bank, horses go down the road, there is enough for us to work on without the complete attention annihilation of the door.

I felt like I was bullying him around the scary corner, and it wasn't positive for him or me. He's getting so good at negotiating Mugdock Park alone and trusting me to get him past weird stuff when we're in the great outdoors. The great indoors is clearly a different kettle of fish.

 

[milliepops]

Oh, one other thing, mine gets huge confidence from the presence of another horse in the indoor. It sounds like that might be difficult to engineer if you don't get ready access to it, but it might be worth trying? if i can ride with anyone at all really, mine forgets his worries, he delegates lion-watch very readily.

 

[Caol Ila]

with mine, I do see it as essentially a submission issue, because i can't show him everything in the world that he will be worried by, and he does need to learn to just go where he's told basically. If he's ever going to do competitions then he will need to learn to go in arenas that have scary areas and do his work despite that. But there's no point going at it head on. We didn't have enough basic control established when i first started this, and we still don't... he's improving, but there are still times when his OMIGOD reaction overtakes his ability to follow instructions.

Mine is exactly the same. Sometimes, I wonder how submissive he will get, between his breed and his background. Maybe it will always be a matter of some negotiation and figuring out how to work together.

I was pleased he accepted the hose. I keep telling myself that was a good end to a sh1t lesson. Last year, he would fly backwards when the water touched him, even with bribes/+R.

Oh, one other thing, mine gets huge confidence from the presence of another horse in the indoor. It sounds like that might be difficult to engineer if you don't get ready access to it, but it might be worth trying? if i can ride with anyone at all really, mine forgets his worries, he delegates lion-watch very readily.

Yeah, if I can get access to it at the same time as a friend (ideally, not the one who's horse goes more nuts than mine in the school and bucks her off), that would definitely help. He is very happy to delegate lion watch to other horses.

 

[Birker2020]

Sorry if this has been repeated but I used to have this with Bailey, and I set up a load of wings with jumps down the long side so that the poles were parallel to the outside wall where he used to shy. It stopped him and after a while I was able to bring the poles further away increasing the distance between the poles and the wall and then eventually remove them totally once he'd worked out there was no point in shying.

 

[Caol Ila]

I think making this horse feel trapped would probably escalate his objections! I don't want to be on him going down something that looks vaguely like a race. I'm not that brave.

 

[smolmaus]

You know exactly what you should be doing CI, you know your boy and what works for him. Logistics is the real problem!

The "just make him/her do it" advice is something I get a lot also and it doesn't sit well with me either. I know there will be occasions where it is the correct advice but it isn't always. Teaching him from the ground first that he isn't going to be eaten by the tables and then asking him to go past it and focus on you is just tackling the problem in the sensible order of operations imo.

 

[milliepops]

the horse has to have the ability to understand and accept the "just make him do it" instruction, that's the thing. Some accept that willingly and others either never learned that at an early age, or have had their trust ruined at some point. You can, through progressive training, set them up so they will have practiced accepting being told they should trust their rider and just do *a thing*, but it's the progressive bit that is important there, for me. it doesn't start with something that causes a meltdown, it starts with much smaller problems, so that each time the level of mental discomfort that the horse might get is only very small and easy to deal with.

With mine, i can push past the scary door, but because the mental discomfort is too huge for him to learn anything he will just rush past it even if we repeat 20 times. We have to learn the "just do it" response over smaller things. I have made good progress in hand with mine but it's been harder to translate to ridden work, we will keep chipping away!

I do think it's tricky for a trainer who attends for a single hour of a horse's life and i don't think it's unusual to be told to just make it happen, they have come with their agenda to deliver, and it is true that some established horses make an issue of something because they know they can it's how you prepare for that as the rider of a work-in-progress horse, i guess.

 

[HeyMich]

Have you seen the Warwick Schiller episode where he talks about 'choose where you work, choose where you rest'? I love using that technique for anything scary - I've used it recently for our youngster and trailer training. You work the horse hard (by that I mean make them walk a small, tight circle, repeatedly) until they are bored. Then take them to the scary place (corner of arena, trailer ramp etc) to rest. Once they learn that as soon as they step away they are worked again, they choose to go into the scary place to rest. It works mounted and on foot. Worth a try?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

He's now expecting the fight as we approach Scary Corner, which is worse than he was when we started riding in there with the trainer. I definitely made it worse by trying to wrestle him around, rather than backing off and going for a more non-confrontational method the moment he first said he had a problem. It's so difficult - almost impossible - to tell your trainer mid-lesson that you have a better way. You're right to not fight your guy.



Yes, those are exactly the things I was thinking of doing from the ground. Also letting him stand in/near the scary place while getting treats (+R is highly effective with this horse), then do a bit of work in the non-scary place.

Last week, when I schooled him myself in the outdoor, he actually felt like a dressage horse. Very round, very forward, light off the leg, bending, using his hind end. He's like a different horse in the indoor. When he's in the part where he doesn't spook, he still isn't as forward and he wants to run around hollow, with his head in the air. Probably so he can look out for danger, since they can't see as well when they're in an outline.



I felt like I was bullying him around the scary corner, and it wasn't positive for him or me. He's getting so good at negotiating Mugdock Park alone and trusting me to get him past weird stuff when we're in the great outdoors. The great indoors is clearly a different kettle of fish.

In my opinion letting them stand near a scary bit with treats makes no difference most will stand quite happily even look bored, it's when you want to go past whilst riding they are totally different.

Agree that it shouldn't be a battle and fighting against them just makes them more tense and upset.

Can you not have lesson outside for a while?

Then I would work in the indoor on your own and do it in a calm way at your own pace, agree MP one of mine is calmer and less spooky with another horse in the arena.

 

[planete]

I have had an uphill battle to persuade Woody that being ridden at all can be enjoyable and we are finally getting there. A lesson like yours, CI, would set us right back. Ground work and slowly getting nearer scary things as he becomes less worried is the only way to go for us.

 

[Caol Ila]

Have you seen the Warwick Schiller episode where he talks about 'choose where you work, choose where you rest'? I love using that technique for anything scary - I've used it recently for our youngster and trailer training. You work the horse hard (by that I mean make them walk a small, tight circle, repeatedly) until they are bored. Then take them to the scary place (corner of arena, trailer ramp etc) to rest. Once they learn that as soon as they step away they are worked again, they choose to go into the scary place to rest. It works mounted and on foot. Worth a try?

I have watched that, along with his "observing the ears" videos, and that was going to be my first port-of-call. He has a very good "observing the ears" video with a horse who doesn't like a scary fenceline. The moment the ears flick away from Warwick and towards the scary fence, he steers the horse in a circle away from the fence until it relaxes and resumes paying attention to him. The key thing I took from that video is the timing. Isn't it always? He moves the horse's feet before it has gotten wound up and spooked. He has responded to the horse's first passing thought of, "I don't like this fence" but then stayed in control and kept the tension from escalating. He says that this works because they start thinking you can read their minds.

I have had an uphill battle to persuade Woody that being ridden at all can be enjoyable and we are finally getting there. A lesson like yours, CI, would set us right back. Ground work and slowly getting nearer scary things as he becomes less worried is the only way to go for us.

Ugh. That's my fear. I hope it hasn't.

 

[Alibear]

I think you're entirely right and the make them go there / up to is at best an old, outdated approach which is not useful.
Your relationship with Fin is still in its early stages as well, he's still building up trust; you don't have several years of going everywhere and seeing everything together to rely on yet.
Work them where they're happy and slowly, that happy area should get bigger over time. Time can be longer than most think, but also give a quicker more thorough and permanent result than bullying them into it.

 

[smolmaus]

I have watched that, along with his "observing the ears" videos, and that was going to be my first port-of-call. He has a very good "observing the ears" video with a horse who doesn't like a scary fenceline. The moment the ears flick away from Warwick and towards the scary fence, he steers the horse in a circle away from the fence until it relaxes and resumes paying attention to him. The key thing I took from that video is the timing. Isn't it always? He moves the horse's feet before it has gotten wound up and spooked. He has responded to the horse's first passing thought of, "I don't like this fence" but then stayed in control and kept the tension from escalating. He says that this works because they start thinking you can read their minds.

Yeah I really like this. And another related tip I picked up from Warwick when I was having those planting problems with Sadie, when they get that giraffe pose like they're looking for something to be worried about, you look in the same direction and let them know you've seen "it" and aren't worried. Small things like that I think really make a difference, its just consciously paying attention to them of course but that's not something I've ever been taught before or seen anyone else do and Sadie really responds to it.

 

[SibeliusMB]

I have had an uphill battle to persuade Woody that being ridden at all can be enjoyable and we are finally getting there. A lesson like yours, CI, would set us right back. Ground work and slowly getting nearer scary things as he becomes less worried is the only way to go for us.

Yeah I really like this. And another related tip I picked up from Warwick when I was having those planting problems with Sadie, when they get that giraffe pose like they're looking for something to be worried about, you look in the same direction and let them know you've seen "it" and aren't worried. Small things like that I think really make a difference, its just consciously paying attention to them of course but that's not something I've ever been taught before or seen anyone else do and Sadie really responds to it.

CI your instincts are correct, the old "horses need to comply with your demands at all times and never question you" mentality should no longer be the default. Fin is clearly telling you he's uncomfortable, and you are recognizing it and understanding him. He can get over this, or at least to a point where he's comfortable enough in that space to want to be there, but it is not a "grab the reins and kick on" solution. It's going to require a lot of time, groundwork, and patience.

Sig is naturally very insecure and sensitive to the environment. When he was younger, we had a similar issue in the indoor with the far door closed (it was usually always open). I immediately went into "kick on and just do it because I told you to" mode, and it fun for no one. He was tense, I was tense, we were both pulling on one another, and even when we weren't in that corner, the anticipation of coming back around to it ruined the rest of the ride. I didn't know better then. I ignored him. And what I know now is this: the snatch the reins/squeezing the horse into it just reaffirms for the horse that you are reacting negatively, so there must be something scary or dangerous in the area. The best thing for the rider to do in this situation is drop the reins, take a deep breath, keep your energy low, and just let the horse stand and look, if they are comfortable enough to stand. Sig's routine now is the first five minutes of the ride I let him wander around the arena on the buckle, he walks up to anything and everything he wants to with no direction from me and investigates to his heart's content. I just stay very relaxed and chilled. He's relaxed, curious, and if there is a scary thing, I don't touch the reins and let him determine when and how he's comfortable in approaching. And he always approaches.

So now, we don't have tension/spooking issues. Those five or so minutes in the beginning of the ride is everything my horse needs to feel comfortable and SAFE in his environment. They have to feel safe. And feeling safe in part comes from what smolmaus wrote - listening to them and making sure the horse knows he's being heard/seen. I started using Warwick's "be present" approach (to include the stopping what I'm doing and looking at whatever they're looking at/concerned with to show them that I notice them and notice what's going on in the environment. I keep my energy low, never in a hurry, and I can't say enough wonderful things about this approach. No tension, no calling to field mates as he's being led up the long drive to the yard, just a very relaxed horse who is very much "with" me.

So yeah....lots of groundwork and listening and patience, which you were already tracking. Just here to say it works. I hope you are able to find the time to get into the indoor to do some of this before you have to lesson in there again. I would honestly avoid doing lessons in the indoor if possible until he's comfortable in there on the ground, and then undersaddle without the pressure of the instructor.

 

[Goldenstar]

Sky came to me for persistently spooking in school at his home .
His behaviour was extremely naughty and took all the fun out of training him at home .
His trick was stop go sideways and if you persisted he would ram his head up put his bum down and go .
He was also a pita in traffic .
I think you need to go into the school as often as possible .
This would be my ideal
After hacking go in the school with another horse walk quarter of the way down the offending long side stop stand give him a treat get off .
Stand pet him a minute leave
Do this as often as you can
Every day try to lead him round the school and stop on the offending side and give him a treat .
When he’s at the stage of being calm then start riding in the school but it’s important to ask nothing of him except calm walking until the issue is fully solved , if you can use a horse friend in the school as well this would be best .
A second person in the danger zone with food might be a good idea .
Finally if his tail is up when he spooks hes not scared if it’s down he is.
Sky tail was always up and he was having a right royal time avoiding things he found hard work and he had found a great way to change the subject .
I would also try training in strange places if you can get transport and see what happens .
I think you need to deal with this in the school without the trainer for a little while and yes I am disappointed they did not have a more structured plan for helping you with this as it’s not unusual to encounter this type of avoidance.

 

[Hallo2012]

what absolutely DOES NOT work for mine is squaring up to him like your trainer wants. He will down tools further out every time and then essentially just refuse to move or even look in that direction.

what does work is like warwick schiller X TRT:

go as close as you can, and before they say eeek no start some small circles, get the focus and the softness back and then ask them to approach the scary area again and if they take even a step further towards it, stop, long rein and just let them stand.
once they take that big deep breath ask them to move a little closer, rinse and repeat circling as above.

once they will crawl past, still keep stopping in the scary zone and stand on a long rein, then when they walk past confidently still give a long rein past it, then when they will trot past it, let them stretch as you go past etc etc etc

so in effect you make the scary zone an easy low pressure place to be until it ceases to be scary.

 

[Carrottom]

I have used "observing the ears" quite successfully although I then needed to stop obsessing about his ears to the detriment of everything else ?
I also go to the scary corner to dismount.

 

[splashgirl45]

I haven’t read all of the thread bout something David Hunt said many years ago was do everything gradually and don’t pick a fight when the horse is worried. He gave an example of a horse being trained for dressage that didn’t want to go near to the boards so he rode him a metre in where he was ok and just worked like that until gradually the horse got nearer and nearer , took a while but he overcame his fear of the boards ..

 

[Caol Ila]

You all have thoughts along the lines of what I was thinking in terms of teaching him that the scary long side isn’t scary. I suppose I am a wee bit disappointed that the trainer, who I use because she takes a softer, classical approach, did not offer a softer, more sympathetic way of working through this.

But yes… Definitely avoid lessons in the indoor until I resolve it.

 

[Caol Ila]

Urgh. Hacked today with a buddy and he was as spooky as he’s been in a while. Like how he was last year. He’s been so bombproof-feeling these last few months. Feels like a setback for our partnership and I feel stupid for not standing up for him more during the lesson.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Les

 

[teapot]

Do you ever get the chance to take him in there just because, have a nosey etc? Go in, have a wander, eat a snack, so it's not associated with work 100% of the time?

 

[Caol Ila]

I could make that chance, teapot. Get my foot soldier to fill a pan with pony nuts and go in after a ride, if it’s free.

 

[littleshetland]

As Teapot says ^^, Perhaps when you're just hanging out in there, get OH to stand amongst the clutter and offer him a treat? Perhaps a bit of grooming and scratching in that corner too?

 

[smolmaus]

Urgh. Hacked today with a buddy and he was as spooky as he’s been in a while. Like how he was last year. He’s been so bombproof-feeling these last few months. Feels like a setback for our partnership and I feel stupid for not standing up for him more during the lesson.

You can't never make mistakes, you can just learn from them. The stupid option would have been not listening to Fin and your gut and carrying on just bullying him through it the next time.

I feel like I'm saying this every day recently (to two different friends about two completely different situations ?) but you should be able to trust "professionals" to know better than you and spotting when they don't, or when it just isn't working, isn't easy!

 

[SEL]

We had the hedge of doom at my old yards outdoor. There was a lorry park for the big competition yard the other side of it so lots of noises and horses they couldn't see properly.

A lovely 12h 20+ year old gelding came to my rescue by giving us a lead. We'd borrow him and his little rider whenever possible and just hack around the arena together. In hand didn't work - kite flying.

I'm currently having youngster vs pig issues & there is no point in trying to make him do anything. We're wandering round to the bridlepath and hanging out just enjoying the pong of pig in 30+ degrees. I think you've come a long way with Fin and it's just time and patience. Shame about the instructor because it would be nice to have someone on the ground helping with the issue instead of trying to force it