Over due GSP bitch...

[{97702}]

I’ve got to say I probably wouldn’t dare try to breed from her again, and I’d probably have wimped out and had her spayed - but I’m SO glad she is OK!

my mum had a bitch like this recently, she was a day or two overdue and my mum just knew. She asked the vets to do a caesarean and even then lost 3 out of the 5 pups - some bitches just aren’t meant to be as MM has said ? nature is cruel sometimes....

 

[Dwyran_gold]

I’ve got to say I probably wouldn’t dare try to breed from her again, and I’d probably have wimped out and had her spayed - but I’m SO glad she is OK!

my mum had a bitch like this recently, she was a day or two overdue and my mum just knew. She asked the vets to do a caesarean and even then lost 3 out of the 5 pups - some bitches just aren’t meant to be as MM has said ? nature is cruel sometimes....

perhaps not, it has been a terrible time for us all and we are so thankful to the vet. We are just going to see how it goes and how we all feel about it if the opportunity arises in the future. She’s our dream girl and we put so much hope in keeping one or two of her pups that just that little bit of a maybe is reassuring to us. But like I said, we’ll see xx

 

[splashgirl45]

glad she is home and on the mend, at least you know there was nothing you could have done although it doesnt lessen the upset or her trauma....

 

[twiggy2]

So please to hear she is doing ok.
I wouldn't try her again either, I would not want to risk her.

 

[Dwyran_gold]

So please to hear she is doing ok.
I wouldn't try her again either, I would not want to risk her.

We’d certainly never do anything to risk our girl, she’s been the best hunting bitch we’ve ever had but first and foremost the most loving family member, even to our boisterous toddler. She’s worth her weight in gold and more.

 

[Aru]

Trying again- as long as she recovers without complication from this incident, does not mean the same thing will happen or that their will be any extra risk to the dog
Sometimes you lose pregnancies. It can happen at any point up until birth in all animal species. there are dozens of known reasons why it can happen and plenty of unknown reasons as well. One bad event does not guarantee another.

if the vets felt it was risky to allow her to recover and try again they would have spayed the dog on the table as the priority in these cases is the bitches long term health.

People would never suggest that a human women did not try for another child because they had an unfortunate event in one pregnancy unless there was a known cause or expected to be a repeated loss. Or imply that the suggestion of it was automatically risky to them because they had a tragic loss for an unknown reason.
Sometimes nature is cruel.... but the OP is not being cruel or unreasonable to by considering breeding this dog again. Repeatedly adding the little comments on here- about how you wouldn't do it, oh im surprised shes not spayed etc- while I have no doubt are done with the best of intentions and are done from point of view of the poster....could however be quite hurtful to read by someone who clearly does love their dog and was kind enough to keep us updated from day one of all the plans and outcomes. They can imply a very different meaning when written down like that and coming from multiple people.

I suspect I'm going to regret writing this but I cant help it....but reading all those comments and feeling the criticism implied in them made me feel horrible for the OP.

I am glad to hear your girls recovering well OP.

 

[Chiffy]

Aru is making such a good point here.
My initial reaction was also that I wouldn’t risk my precious bitch again but making the comparison with humans, a friend of mine was pregnant, saw her plenty of times during her seemingly normal pregnancy. I knew she was near her date and then the next time I saw her, she was slim but there was no baby. I just daren’t ask.
She was amazing about it, just before her due date she realised she hadn’t felt her baby move that day. The baby had died inside her. It’s a long time ago and the ins and outs are not the purpose of this post. Basically, she got pregnant again very quickly and had a perfectly normal pregnancy, birth and perfect child.
So sorry for your traumatic time OP and glad your bitch is on the mend.

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

People would never suggest that a human women did not try for another child because they had an unfortunate event in one pregnancy unless there was a known cause or expected to be a repeated loss. Or imply that the suggestion of it was automatically risky to them because they had a tragic loss for an unknown reason.

Whilst I agree with the majority of the point you are making in your post and I also certainly don't wish to criticise OP for whatever decision they make, it's their dog and they know them best etc. However I don't think you can compare the situation to humans, we make the conscious decision to try again after miscarriage etc and accept the risks and potential heartache. The dog isn't making the decision in this case or weighing up the pros and cons. It is our job and responsibility as their owners to do that for them.

I am so so sorry for your loss OP, I can't even imagine your heartbreak.

 

[Dwyran_gold]

Trying again- as long as she recovers without complication from this incident, does not mean the same thing will happen or that their will be any extra risk to the dog
Sometimes you lose pregnancies. It can happen at any point up until birth in all animal species. there are dozens of known reasons why it can happen and plenty of unknown reasons as well. One bad event does not guarantee another.

if the vets felt it was risky to allow her to recover and try again they would have spayed the dog on the table as the priority in these cases is the bitches long term health.

People would never suggest that a human women did not try for another child because they had an unfortunate event in one pregnancy unless there was a known cause or expected to be a repeated loss. Or imply that the suggestion of it was automatically risky to them because they had a tragic loss for an unknown reason.
Sometimes nature is cruel.... but the OP is not being cruel or unreasonable to by considering breeding this dog again. Repeatedly adding the little comments on here- about how you wouldn't do it, oh im surprised shes not spayed etc- while I have no doubt are done with the best of intentions and are done from point of view of the poster....could however be quite hurtful to read by someone who clearly does love their dog and was kind enough to keep us updated from day one of all the plans and outcomes. They can imply a very different meaning when written down like that and coming from multiple people.

I suspect I'm going to regret writing this but I cant help it....but reading all those comments and feeling the criticism implied in them made me feel horrible for the OP.

I am glad to hear your girls recovering well OP.

thank you for your support. It wouldn’t be a decision taken lightly and would be on advice from our vet. The reason for breeding her was to keep one or two for ourselves. She really is the best dog. Her pedigree is really good, she has grandparents on the official GSP website referred to as exceptional examples of the breed and lots of champions in field trails too. We waited for her for a year so we certainly are in no rush to make any decisions about puppies now. X

 

[twiggy2]

Trying again- as long as she recovers without complication from this incident, does not mean the same thing will happen or that their will be any extra risk to the dog
Sometimes you lose pregnancies. It can happen at any point up until birth in all animal species. there are dozens of known reasons why it can happen and plenty of unknown reasons as well. One bad event does not guarantee another.

if the vets felt it was risky to allow her to recover and try again they would have spayed the dog on the table as the priority in these cases is the bitches long term health.

People would never suggest that a human women did not try for another child because they had an unfortunate event in one pregnancy unless there was a known cause or expected to be a repeated loss. Or imply that the suggestion of it was automatically risky to them because they had a tragic loss for an unknown reason.
Sometimes nature is cruel.... but the OP is not being cruel or unreasonable to by considering breeding this dog again. Repeatedly adding the little comments on here- about how you wouldn't do it, oh im surprised shes not spayed etc- while I have no doubt are done with the best of intentions and are done from point of view of the poster....could however be quite hurtful to read by someone who clearly does love their dog and was kind enough to keep us updated from day one of all the plans and outcomes. They can imply a very different meaning when written down like that and coming from multiple people.

I suspect I'm going to regret writing this but I cant help it....but reading all those comments and feeling the criticism implied in them made me feel horrible for the OP.

I am glad to hear your girls recovering well OP.

Comments from those of us who said we wouldn't try again for whatever reason are just giving personal opinions the same as anyone commenting on threads.
It's not criticism as it's not happened.
Also a human trying again and a bitch being put to a stud are not comparable, the bitch is bred from for our own benefit not hers.

 

[{97702}]

Trying again- as long as she recovers without complication from this incident, does not mean the same thing will happen or that their will be any extra risk to the dog
Sometimes you lose pregnancies. It can happen at any point up until birth in all animal species. there are dozens of known reasons why it can happen and plenty of unknown reasons as well. One bad event does not guarantee another.

if the vets felt it was risky to allow her to recover and try again they would have spayed the dog on the table as the priority in these cases is the bitches long term health.

People would never suggest that a human women did not try for another child because they had an unfortunate event in one pregnancy unless there was a known cause or expected to be a repeated loss. Or imply that the suggestion of it was automatically risky to them because they had a tragic loss for an unknown reason.
Sometimes nature is cruel.... but the OP is not being cruel or unreasonable to by considering breeding this dog again. Repeatedly adding the little comments on here- about how you wouldn't do it, oh im surprised shes not spayed etc- while I have no doubt are done with the best of intentions and are done from point of view of the poster....could however be quite hurtful to read by someone who clearly does love their dog and was kind enough to keep us updated from day one of all the plans and outcomes. They can imply a very different meaning when written down like that and coming from multiple people.

I suspect I'm going to regret writing this but I cant help it....but reading all those comments and feeling the criticism implied in them made me feel horrible for the OP.

I am glad to hear your girls recovering well OP.

At no point did I suggest that the OP was putting her bitch at risk by trying again, I simply gave my personal opinion that I wouldn’t do it. That others chose to voice the same opinion is outside my control unfortunately.

I’ve been involved with breeding dogs for 40 years now and have seen some spectacular cock-ups that vets have made with whelping bitches which most certainly have not put the interests of the bitch first. Whilst I certainly do not believe that is the case here, my personal observations and experiences allow me a certain level of uncertainty unless I have a vet I really know well and trust implicitly.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Our bitch that I referred to was mated twice. Before that she was taken some distance to a male and tried to eat him so my Mum took her home again.
First actual mating was forced (she was back with the breeder at the time) and the litter was not good, characters were dreadful.
Second litter, all lost, to an excellent dog.
We left her entire and she took a pyo in later life and nearly died (but was saved and lived another four or five years).
With dogs, nature often sends us warning signs.

 

[MurphysMinder]

thank you for your support. It wouldn’t be a decision taken lightly and would be on advice from our vet. The reason for breeding her was to keep one or two for ourselves. She really is the best dog. Her pedigree is really good, she has grandparents on the official GSP website referred to as exceptional examples of the breed and lots of champions in field trails too. We waited for her for a year so we certainly are in no rush to make any decisions about puppies now. X

I'm not sure how old she is, but just bear in mind that generally it is not considered wise to leave a bitch much after 4, certainly 5 years old before a first litter. Aru does raise some good points, though I agree with those who say you can't really compare with a human. If you do decide to try again can I recommend "The Book of the Bitch", aka the dog breeders bible, by Kay White, it is full of very practical advice and information for anyone considering breeding from their bitch.

 

[Dwyran_gold]

I'm not sure how old she is, but just bear in mind that generally it is not considered wise to leave a bitch much after 4, certainly 5 years old before a first litter. Aru does raise some good points, though I agree with those who say you can't really compare with a human. If you do decide to try again can I recommend "The Book of the Bitch", aka the dog breeders bible, by Kay White, it is full of very practical advice and information for anyone considering breeding from their bitch.

It is generally considered unkind to breed a Gsp bitch before the age of 3.5 as they are ‘late’ developers and are know to live until they are 14- 18 years of age. They are very immature until they are 3.5 she is 4.5 and in her youth. I have read the book of the bitch X

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

It is generally considered unkind to breed a Gsp bitch before the age of 3.5 as they are ‘late’ developers and are know to live until they are 14- 18 years of age. They are very immature until they are 3.5 she is 4.5 and in her youth. I have read the book of the bitch X

You don't need our opinions or advice. You know your dog.

With your care and attention, she has everything she needs to make a full recovery.

 

[druid]

Many breeders and vets will schedule c-sections for litters over 8/9. If you have a good repro vet then using reverse progesterone and US gut motility of pups is much more accurate in determining when whelping is due

 

[Dwyran_gold]

You don't need our opinions or advice. You know your dog.

With your care and attention, she has everything she needs to make a full recovery.

thank you. We do know her, hindsight is a horrible thing in these situations but We’ve been reassured there’s nothing we could have done but it’s been such a horrible time for us emotionally.
I don’t take anyone’s comments as criticism, everyone is entitled to their opinion xx

 

[TheresaW]

Following this post, I couldn’t help but think why would you try again? Then reading Aru’s post, it made me think again. 10 years ago, I put my mare in foal. She gave birth to a still born, and I tried again later. She took once again, but lost it early on, and I haven’t tried again.

Earlier this year, my cousin had to give birth to her daughter who had died in uterus. No one could say why the baby had died, and my cousin has been told there is no reason why it would happen again. Sometimes things just happen.

Am glad your girl is ok, and so sorry about the pups. X

 

[Dwyran_gold]

Following this post, I couldn’t help but think why would you try again? Then reading Aru’s post, it made me think again. 10 years ago, I put my mare in foal. She gave birth to a still born, and I tried again later. She took once again, but lost it early on, and I haven’t tried again.

Earlier this year, my cousin had to give birth to her daughter who had died in uterus. No one could say why the baby had died, and my cousin has been told there is no reason why it would happen again. Sometimes things just happen.

Am glad your girl is ok, and so sorry about the pups. X

oh I’m so sorry for the losses you’ve experienced. It’s so unfair and so hard to make any sense of,
well, practically impossible to.
I see so many people online showing off their new puppies and it breaks my heart for my girl. My nerves aren’t ones of steel as it is and it always seems our anxieties are often proven which make these decisions even more difficult to make.
after a chat with my husband tonight, we’ve decided to just take it one day at a time and see how she is in herself.
we will take her for a health check after her next season and providing the vet gives the ok to go ahead we do want to try again. Xx

 

[Aru]

I didn't mean to start a arguments. Apologies. Like I said in my message I understand why people commented and their opinions are completely valid...but when theres multiple messages like that the implication starts form that it's a bad call by the owner and I felt I did have to comment on it and give my own opinion.

Perhaps I shouldn't have added a human comparison but sometimes it's easier to compare to situations people are familiar with. But pregnancy loss is not uncommon. It is something anyone breeding animals will deal with at some stage if they breed. Its always heartbreaking.

I just read the thread and knew if this had been my dog and I would be deeply hurt to have to implied that I wasn't putting her first and would quite frankly never share any further details of her journey as a breeding animal as well as a much lived pet on here.

By sharing stories of well cared for and suitable breeding dogs online it does help those not in breeding circles see what goes into breeding healthy dogs.Heartaches and all included.

Breeding is not for the fainthearted. It is not always as easy and simple as throwing two entire dogs together and watching them mate then just wait for happy cute puppies etc. Life isn't that simple all the time.

If we demonise every good breeder for chosing to breed we will only have those who do not care at all doing so and talking about it. That does not help encourage responsible breeding. It does not help educate the public in what responsible breeding looks like.

My girls dam lost two litters before she was born. One is chance, two make it suspicious. Her breeder brought her to a repro specialist for a full check up after the second loss and it was discovered she needed to be supplemented with progesterone in pregnancy. She had 2 healthy litters after-issue solved by taking a hormone tablet daily during pregnacy and is now desexed house pet and nanny dog to any pups the breeder has.

None of her daughter's have had issues carrying pups and have normal sized litters for the breed. Those who went on for breeding have birthed naturally. They are all health tested and meet breed standard(some better then others- obviously there are several who are now pets not breeding dogs)... my girls siblings have shown to champion level, competed in multiple disciplines including showing lure chasing,scent work, low level herding, work as therapy dogs etc. They are all much loved pets.

If she had given up after losing that first pregnancy, then that entire line of healthy happy dogs would have never existed.

Not everyone would make the same choice. I'm sure plenty of people will have the opionion she should have just desisted from trying to find out why her dog could not carry a litter and just desex her instead of seeing if there was an easily fixable medical issue. That's a personal choice people make. But it's not nessecaily "wrong" for want of a better word to explain it, to seek advanced medical care for a dog...

But I just feel I should share this sort of thing and comment, because I worry people often don't realise the sheer level of work, commitment, effort and occasional heartbreak that goes into breeding dogs.

 

[{97702}]

There are some of us who know about commitment, heartbreak and effort only too well Aru and don’t need to be told so by any vet - my own experiences of breeding commenced when I was about 7 or 8 years old, and I saw a litter of boxers whelped. As was usual practice in those days (the 1970s) the white boxers were culled, and I watched the litter being dew clawed and docked by the vet - people would be up in arms about that nowadays, but I clearly remember the reaction of the puppies to this day.

I also clearly remember when I was about 13 or 14, my cavalier bitch being put to the top sire of the time. When the time came for her to whelp, the vet (who was later president of the RCVS, happy to name him if you would like) decided in his veterinary “expertise” that a forceps delivery would be preferable to a caesarean. So I watched my little dog scream in agony every time he removed a puppy from her.... and I saw a puppy that he had removed, still alive, with its eyes hanging by the optic nerve where they had come out of the eye socket due to the vets treatment with the forceps - and we lost every puppy from that litter except one due to his total incompetence and ineptitude.

This is not relevant to the OP’s experience in any way, but it is extremely relevant to why I tend not to listen to vets lecturing me and telling me they know more about breeding than (in this case) my mother knows. Because that is one example, and I know it is not true.

 

[Aru]

There are some of us who know about commitment, heartbreak and effort only too well Aru and don’t need to be told so by any vet - my own experiences of breeding commenced when I was about 7 or 8 years old, and I saw a litter of boxers whelped. As was usual practice in those days (the 1970s) the white boxers were culled, and I watched the litter being dew clawed and docked by the vet - people would be up in arms about that nowadays, but I clearly remember the reaction of the puppies to this day.

I also clearly remember when I was about 13 or 14, my cavalier bitch being put to the top sire of the time. When the time came for her to whelp, the vet (who was later president of the RCVS, happy to name him if you would like) decided in his veterinary “expertise” that a forceps delivery would be preferable to a caesarean. So I watched my little dog scream in agony every time he removed a puppy from her.... and I saw a puppy that he had removed, still alive, with its eyes hanging by the optic nerve where they had come out of the eye socket due to the vets treatment with the forceps - and we lost every puppy from that litter except one due to his total incompetence and ineptitude.

This is not relevant to the OP’s experience in any way, but it is extremely relevant to why I tend not to listen to vets lecturing me and telling me they know more about breeding than (in this case) my mother knows. Because that is one example, and I know it is not true.

I'm sorry you feel lectured when I comment.
This comment wasn't aimed at you though, it's a response on a thread. Plus I repeated acknowledged thought the comments people have made were not ment to be unkind.

So I'm not sure why you want to attack me directly for it? I'm sorry you have had repeated bad experiences with vets.
I am confused about how listing vets mistakes that you have seen and talking about the killing of puppies for their colour is relevant to my comment defending the breeding of good dogs even after complications have occurred.

Is it to imply that the Op shouldn't trust their vet and they may be wrong about it?

Or just to make people think less of the profession and that we are not to be trusted when it comes to breeding dogs?

Imo you can't trust your vet then you need to find a new one. Owners have to agree to procedures for their pets. The onus still falls back on the owner as well as the vet in these situations.

I'm struggling to see why you have the need to specifically attack my profession in response to me commenting on a thread about breeding though.

Particularly when I have mentioning my personal experiences in how it would affect me as a dog owner who breeds in my response.

Is it because I said the vets would have speyed if they thought she wasn't going to recover well from the procedure?
Because I still believe that to me true.

 

[{97702}]

I’m confused why you feel that my post describing some of the bad experiences I’ve had with vets when breeding was an attack on you

It is simply an illustration that some of us have a fair amount of experience in breeding, and when we give advice it is not done lightly.

It does therefore grate when a vet states in a condescending manner that vets know best, and your opinions should be ignored.

 

[Aru]

I was simply illustrating that some of us do have quite a lot of experience when we talk about breeding dogs, and if we suggest a course of action then that suggestion isn’t made lightly. To be then told that vets know best and wouldn’t do something that wasn’t in the best interests of the bitch comes across as very patronising when, as I said at the time, my personal experiences have shown this not to be the case. As for changing my vet.... do you seriously think we remained with that vet after that experience??!! It was over 35 years ago and the memory is still as clear as day for me now.

unfortunately I didn’t explain clearly enough about my experiences of the boxer litter - apart from momentary discomfort I don’t remember them particularly bothered by the docking/dew clawing experience, I was simply using that as an example of the first litter I observed being whelped.

Context is important, and it’s useful to know that not everyone is an owner who may have had one or maybe two litters in their lifetime when they offer advice on these matters.

Your assuming my comment was directed at you though. It wasnt. It wasn't ment to be patronising to anyone. It was a general comment because reading the thread as a whole made me sympathise massively with the op.

If I wish to deal with someone directly I'l address them directly and in the open like we are discussing now.

However I appreciate the written word isn't always great for conveying intent.

Don't you think your been patronising/insulting as well though?
Because you have had bad experiences with vets in the past my opinion is wrong patronising and condescending because it differs from your experiences?

The way I read it is your assuming the worst of their vets- that they are not putting the bitches health first and implying that the op is choosing the future breeding prospects were the priority...not saving the bitch.

Given there isnt any evidence thats the case I don't agree with you. if anything in my experience I've found vets are to quick to spey dogs for repro complications including some practices where a csection becomes a spey and csection automatically.
There's a stance that leans against the breeding of dogs and keeping them intact that's growing.

The fact that they were able to clear the uterus and wake up the dog still intact- knowing it would reflect badly on them if the dog does not do well, imo would strongly suggest they likely do think she had a very good prospect of a full recovery.
A spey would be significantly quicker and less work and hassle for the vet.
The recovery time for abdominal surgery will be the similar for the dog regardless.

Telling me that you don't think the boxer puppies seemed distressed when they had toes and tails amputated does not particularly help your case though.
They used to do surgery on newborn babies without anaesthetic as well back in the day...because in neonates pain is hard to quantify. It was only after they started to use anaesthetics and pain meds and unsurprisingly, noticed significanty less babies died in recovery that the standards changed.
Things change over times.

If you want me to respect your 40 years of experience....using that example-minimising a likely incredibly painful and traumatic event that was done to those dogs because they didnt seem to react much isn't the way to do it.

Neonates do not react like adults to pain. But does not mean they do not feel pain. It just means instead of screaming and thrashing like a older dog in full command on its body they will instead briefly vocalise- then will go quiet, some attempt to self sooth by nursing etc. It doesn't mean it didn't cause pain and trauma..They have had an amputation. Often without any pain relief or ongoing pain control post the event.

We know better now then to assume they feel no pain. some vets will still do tail docking without painrelief unfortuantly but it's getting less common over time.

Vet med advanced and the recommended standards change all the time.

I would hope that the good breeders advance in their stances as well and don't stay stuck in the attitude of' it's been done that way for years and because I've 40 years of experience where they were fine It's the right way to do things.

This is the joy of forums though. We all get opinions.

 

[{97702}]

are you actually reading my replies, or are you just picking out examples to criticise ? I was around 7 or 8 years old when I saw the boxer litter being born - that was over 40 years ago now - do you really think I would do things now in the way they were done then? You have a very curious approach to responding when you apparently feel “attacked” and I won’t bother engaging again, it’s clearly a waste of time trying to have a reasonable discussion with you

 

[angrybird1]

I'm sorry you feel lectured when I comment.
This comment wasn't aimed at you though, it's a response on a thread. Plus I repeated acknowledged thought the comments people have made were not ment to be unkind.

So I'm not sure why you want to attack me directly for it? I'm sorry you have had repeated bad experiences with vets.
I am confused about how listing vets mistakes that you have seen and talking about the killing of puppies for their colour is relevant to my comment defending the breeding of good dogs even after complications have occurred.

Is it to imply that the Op shouldn't trust their vet and they may be wrong about it?
I wouldn't take it personally. That poster seems to make a habit of overtaking threads and jumping on comments not aimed at her. She also seems to think she's the only person with any knowledge of experience of dogs. I would just ignore.
Or just to make people think less of the profession and that we are not to be trusted when it comes to breeding dogs?

Imo you can't trust your vet then you need to find a new one. Owners have to agree to procedures for their pets. The onus still falls back on the owner as well as the vet in these situations.

I'm struggling to see why you have the need to specifically attack my profession in response to me commenting on a thread about breeding though.

Particularly when I have mentioning my personal experiences in how it would affect me as a dog owner who breeds in my response.

Is it because I said the vets would have speyed if they thought she wasn't going to recover well from the procedure?
Because I still believe that to me true.

 

[angrybird1]

I wouldn't worry. That poster seems to make a habit of jumping on comments not aimed at her and taking it personally when it's not her thread.
She also seems to think no one else knows anything.
I'd just ignore.
I'm sure the Op has enough to deal with at the moment.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Telling me that you don't think the boxer puppies seemed distressed when they had toes and tails amputated does not particularly help your case though.
They used to do surgery on newborn babies without anaesthetic as well back in the day...because in neonates pain is hard to quantify. It was only after they started to use anaesthetics and pain meds and unsurprisingly, noticed significanty less babies died in recovery that the standards changed.
Things change over times.

If you want me to respect your 40 years of experience....using that example-minimising a likely incredibly painful and traumatic event that was done to those dogs because they didnt seem to react much isn't the way to do it.

Neonates do not react like adults to pain. But does not mean they do not feel pain. It just means instead of screaming and thrashing like a older dog in full command on its body they will instead briefly vocalise- then will go quiet, some attempt to self sooth by nursing etc. It doesn't mean it didn't cause pain and trauma..They have had an amputation. Often without any pain relief or ongoing pain control post the event.

We know better now then to assume they feel no pain. some vets will still do tail docking without painrelief unfortuantly but it's getting less common over time.

It seems that you read this part of Levrier's post to mean completely the opposite of the way I read it. I took it as a criticism of the way in which the procedures were carried out, following immediately from the criticism of the culling of the white puppies.

I have found in the past that many young/inexperienced vets do tend to patronise owners. I shall never forget the young woman who 'explained' inflammation to me, a multiple dog owner of many years as the computerised records that she had brought up must have shown, who was old enough to be her mother. She certainly hasn't been the only one - our wonderful old horse vet used to send young vets to us and then ask for feedback - one never came again! Others, of course, are excellent clinicians and have a good 'bedside manner' with owners and animals alike.

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

I'm not sure how any of the above helps the OP who is clearly experienced enough, and has the right necessary support.

After such a traumatic time for the OP maybe we could all try to be a little more considerate. Sharing our war stories is maybe for another day?

OP, I hope you aren't reading this but if you are, we really all do wish you and your dog well although I can see how some of the comments haven't expressly said that. I'm sure everyone commenting is doing it to be helpful, it just may not come across that way. (As previous have said, the written word is difficult, and not seeing the impact of our words on the other person means we maybe don't hold back as we would in person).

 

[{97702}]

Thank you PAS for understanding the point I was trying to make, instead of nitpicking the examples I gave which were simply my recollections of my first experiences of breeding many many years ago. So much has changed since then for sure!