Overbending neck rolling HELP

[toomanyneds]

need to pick brains here.

I have been given the ride on a SUPER horse to take eventing and bring him up through the ranks, he is 100% perfect in every way but i have having one problem with him that i cannot seem to fix.

When schooling in an arena he can overbend behind the bit, he is very light in the hand and doesnt take the contact...however with 20 minutes of working in long and low this sorts itself so is not my biggest issue.

When out in company or on the xc course i have no control, breaks/steering. he isnt a hot headed horse and is by no means bolting but he just bowls on pretty keen and with any aid to turn or a half halt he rounds his neck right under almost so his bottom lip is to his chest and keeps going. he isnt a hard mouthed horse its just an evasion technique he seems to have developed but it leaves me with no control.

I have taken him to open spaces and worked on transitions and control excercises etc and have no problem, its just literally on the xc course or if we have a lead out hacking.

He is currently in a copper snaffle, i have tried variations of tack, martingale/no martingale, waterford snaffle, french link, rubber snaffle, hanging snaffle but its the same story.

This horse is very balanced and well schooled, he was produced by a very famous professional eventer who insists he always found the horse pretty lazy.

Ive been told to give him a sharp half halt upwards to pick his head up but far short of royally pi**ing him off it doesnt really have the desired effect.

the odd thing is even if you drop your reins his rounds under and doesnt stretch, his back, saddle, teeth etc have all been checked.

Any bright ideas?

 

[toomanyneds]

everybody at as much of a loss as i am?

 

[Kikke]

Tbo I would have hiss back / neck checked again. Maybe by someone else because if he avoids the contact as he it often has a medical reason espessially
As you say he is very well schooled. Four eyes (or hands) see more then two.

 

[KatB]

He has basically learn this as an evasion, probably from being produced with a very strong leg/hand to really push him into the bridle. In regards to the lack of brakes, I would keep bitting as soft as possible, but instead of pulling back, I would really kick him up into the contact and flex him strongly to rebalance/soften his neck and get him to open out and move his head from the "fixed" position. What did the pro ride him in?

 

[TableDancer]

Tbh, horses which go in this way are a nightmare, and it is incredibly difficult to cure - it is a clever evasion, and as you say, you potentially have little in the way of brakes or steering; it also limits their ability to use themselves jumping if they won't stretch their necks and use them. I think you have to go on working on the flatwork to get him really taking the contact forward, then do your best to take this schooling out onto the XC course, but it isn't easy... You need to break up the braced neck, how you do this is difficult to say without seeing the horse in action - you could try flexing him to whichever side he is most resistant to, or one side then the other - but obviously the ultimate goal of this flexion is to get him to take thr bit forward...

 

[TarrSteps]

Did he go like this for the pro? How long since he left the pro's yard? Has the pro sat on him recently and given you his thoughts?

 

[Alyth]

I would think outside the square.....do the basic Parelli games and teach him to give to a feel....then ride him bitless!! If you take this idea and try it you will be amazed at the possibilities it opens up!!

 

[~ Clear Light ~]

Have ridden a few like this. Essentially the horse is not connected and you need to establish a true contact by releasing the back muscles and suppling the horse. I would start by thinking diagonal aids, inside leg to secure the connection with the outside rein, outside flexion if necessary, paying attention to whether the body of the horse is straight and whether your weight aids are correct. The inside hand should be there but giving when the horse accepts the diagonal connection. Aim for the feeling you could stretch the horse down if you wanted to whilst keeping the contact you've just created. If he fixes keep everything a bit mobile and alternate outside flexion with no flexion until he lets go.*

Kind of tricky to explain but it works if you are patient (no quick fixes for this one!), used it on a youngster with a neck curling problem today. The aim is to get the neck out and down stretching as one unit with no kinks in it. Good luck!

 

[nikicb]

Have ridden a few like this. Essentially the horse is not connected and you need to establish a true contact by releasing the back muscles and suppling the horse. I would start by thinking diagonal aids, inside leg to secure the connection with the outside rein, outside flexion if necessary, paying attention to whether the body of the horse is straight and whether your weight aids are correct. The inside hand should be there but giving when the horse accepts the diagonal connection. Aim for the feeling you could stretch the horse down if you wanted to whilst keeping the contact you've just created. If he fixes keep everything a bit mobile and alternate outside flexion with no flexion until he lets go.*

Kind of tricky to explain but it works if you are patient (no quick fixes for this one!), used it on a youngster with a neck curling problem today. The aim is to get the neck out and down stretching as one unit with no kinks in it. Good luck!

I am absolutely no expert, but my 6 year old horse has a habit of rolling over too much and the outside flexion exercises work really well for us. And then once he has connected, lifting the hands and riding through from behind. We also do an exercise where he is outside flexion on the corners, then inside on the straight and then switch it so it is inside on the corners, then outside on the straight. This really helps us. Good luck.

 

[seabsicuit2]

I would work on giving a much longer rein and keep hands at the base of the neck.I think sometimes we forget just how long their necks are & hold the reins at a much shorter point than the neck can hold itself to be balance correctly, if that makes sense.
Essentially do lots of work on a much much longer rein ( when out hacking work on the buckle to encourage stretching out and more balance ) & really using the seat and legs to ask everything, not the hand,and then gradually you may well find that the horse starts to take more self balance/ carriage and more of a contact.. May not work, but may give you some steps in the right direction..

Also keep experimenting with bits, i.e double jointed, curved bits with small lozenges in the middle with small connection rings things like NS tranz / verdibrand bits, the bit needs to feel light when you pick it up, not too thick that the horse can't quite close his mouth over it/ feel comfty with it but not so thin that the horse sits behind it.. Also perhaps a fixed ring ( d ring/fulmer) not a loose ring?

 

[Pale Rider]

Horses learn this evasion to avoid harsh hands. Works pretty good for them, this horse has got rid of his tormentor.

As far as ignoring the aids, he's just not connected to the rider, making his own decisions.

I'd start him again and not use a bit until you don't need one.

 

[charlie76]

I had one do this, I would sort him out on the flat to start with. Bit wise I used a straight bar happy mouth and cavesson noseband and almost encouraged him to lean on me.
I'm prob going to get shot down for this but riding wise if he curled on me I would just keep shortening the reins until he was on the contact , it didn't matter how short they were as long as I had him in the hand. I also kept sending him forward into it, I didn't get how over bent or short in the back he was as long as I had a connection. Once he was connected I could then start to push the neck out. I had, on occasion had hold of the leather part of rubber reins, the bit near the bit ,in order to get a connection! I still kept the contact soft so it wasn't a short and pulling rein, just an insisting he stayed connected rein.

 

[TarrSteps]

I think that is a time honoured and useful 'fix' c76 and one you would find recommended in many classic texts. The problem is it presupposes the rider knows how to 'ride the neck out', which is actually quite an educated skill (or set of skills). It's also much easier to do on a naturally dressage-built horse that wants to work uphill.

The problem is if you go that route and aren't quite strong and sure of yourself it can make a bad situation worse.

 

[~ Clear Light ~]

Charlie76 I tried something like this once but found the horse was mainly ending up with a broken neckline which is still an evasion of a true connection whilst there may be something felt in the hand, so it was still not possible for me to achieve a genuine stretch of the entire neck (and even trickier if the horse is hot with the leg aids so can't just drive forwards) Did your horse become easier in the contact in following sessions or did you have to start every session like this? Just curious as I didn't pursue it. But I'm sure it may suit some horses, especially if you can really drive them forwards into it without them rushing or becoming more tense.

I would be very very careful about restricting the inside rein too much.

 

[nikicb]

I am absolutely no expert, but my 6 year old horse has a habit of rolling over too much and the outside flexion exercises work really well for us. And then once he has connected, lifting the hands and riding through from behind. We also do an exercise where he is outside flexion on the corners, then inside on the straight and then switch it so it is inside on the corners, then outside on the straight. This really helps us. Good luck.

Just adding to my post from yesterday - we think the reason my horse rolls over too far is that he has been ridden in draw reins at some time in the past as he is fixed through his neck and jaw rather than it being a deliberate evasion. That's why the flexion exercises work for him as they help him flex and relax through the neck and jaw, then he uncurls himself. I do have to make sure that I don't have the reins too long though as his whole frame just lengthens and then all the energy is lost making it even harder for him to lift in front and have his poll at the highest point. I hope that makes some sense.

ETA draw reins may have their place, but clearly not in the way my horse has been hauled in, to make him look like he has an 'outline'.

 

[Tonks]

Horses learn this evasion to avoid harsh hands. Works pretty good for them, this horse has got rid of his tormentor.

As far as ignoring the aids, he's just not connected to the rider, making his own decisions.

I'd start him again and not use a bit until you don't need one.

I would concur......

I wouldn't try to view it as an 'evasion' but rather a coping mechanism to avoid mouth pressure that he can't cope with. Somewhere along the line, both past and present he feels that the rein aids are uncomfortable. Perhaps too much pressure is used to ask for a 'stop/slow' or that the pressure is not released at the very moment he gives you the desired response.

Having a lack of brakes is simply another manifestation that your horse has not correctly learnt what the application of pressure in the mouth really means because the stop/slow aids have not been executed properly.

Or perhaps a 'turn' aid is applied with a slighly pulling hand so that he has become confused as to whether the rider wants 'stop' or 'turn'. Any one of these poorly excecuted aids can produce this type of behaviour in the horse.

Simply 'driving' the horse 'up' into the contact by asking for faster or lengthen makes the problem worse because the real issue is not dealt with.

And, it doesn't necessarily need to manifest itself at the direct moment you apply pressure (although you would see sutble indications or big overt reactions) ....he may exhibit this behaviour 10 minutes into a ride or half an hour because for him, the pressure has built to a level he finds uncomfortable.

Another indication, apart from dropping the head to the chest (which is very effective as the overt pressure/contact disappears), is if your horse is attempting to snatch at the reins (both during ridding work or at the end of a session - no matter how little the snatch might be) he is attempting to decrease the level of pressure, that the rider is exerting, himself.

I would suggest that you retrain the 'stop' response and the 'turning' aids (both direct and indirect rein aids) using lighter aids/less pressure, as it is these that are faulty and not correctly understood by your horse, in my opinion. Here, you can learn what amount of pressure is suitable for him, to elicit a slow/stop response. Basically, through training we should all aim to use the lightest aids possible to produce the desired response. Terribly difficult to achieve, if your a numpty like me with a very naughty left hand that seems to have a life of its own. But, basically he will then learn that the rider uses a refined amount of pressure that is not uncomfortable for him.

In my experience it's very difficult to retrain but you can make big changes through re-schooling transitions down (slightly longer duration of 'pull') and transitions within the pace such as slow (slighly shorter duration of 'pull') being very mindful to decrease the pressure over time, rewarding by releasing the very moment he gives you the desired repsonse and the careful use of rein back to reinforce the 'stop' pressure in the mouth.

I might be wrong and just my opinion.

 

[Farma]

Has anyone used a bearing rein in this situation?

 

[SCMSL]

My mare did this too.

Changed trainers and the new one sorted it out in less than two weeks. How? Basically every time she curled under him he would just push her forward to a very fast pace. No horse can galop (not canter, actually galop) with its head in its chest, so the horse learnt not to do that.