Overfacing a young horse

[ycbm]

Following on from a few recent threads, I'm very aware that I've got a talented horse who isn't traditionally built for dressage. He's six and I don't want to get to eight or ten and then realise I went too far too fast in getting him to sit his weight further back.

What would alert you to a young, able horse needing to be taken more slowly (not necessarily mine, I mean generally)?

Do you have any hard and fast rules that you would not do x or y with any horse or perhaps any horse of a particular type, before certain age, or a certain physical attribute is in place?

I'll start. I have a rule that I won't jump any four year old, no matter how big or talented, over one metre. Or more than twice a month. Or before it's done a minimum of six months hacking about.

 

[Llee94]

It depends on the horse. My 4 year old is being very slow to mature and has been very lightly ridden. Not jumped under saddle but has trotted over a few ground poles.
I will take my time with him to get him out eventing. He may go out as a 5 year old next year and do a handful of events or he might not go out till he is 6. He will let me know when he is ready.

 

[Red-1]

What would alert you to a young, able horse needing to be taken more slowly (not necessarily mine, I mean generally)?

I don't have hard and fast rules, as some horses just find everything easy, whereas others take longer.

I like that the horse is happy in work, and keeps their "try" as in daring to try different things without worry. The other thing is that I think if they have lots of physical niggles, then however slowly you are going, it may not be slow enough.

I do also like to work a bit then back off a bit, both to consolidate mentally but also to have a rest physically and build it back up again slowly.

 

[ycbm]

It depends on the horse. My 4 year old is being very slow to mature and has been very lightly ridden. Not jumped under saddle but has trotted over a few ground poles.
I will take my time with him to get him out eventing. He may go out as a 5 year old next year and do a handful of events or he might not go out till he is 6. He will let me know when he is ready.

Agree with this. I've got two six year olds and they could hardly be more different if they tried !

 

[ycbm]

I don't have hard and fast rules, as some horses just find everything easy, whereas others take longer.

I like that the horse is happy in work, and keeps their "try" as in daring to try different things without worry. The other thing is that I think if they have lots of physical niggles, then however slowly you are going, it may not be slow enough.

I do also like to work a bit then back off a bit, both to consolidate mentally but also to have a rest physically and build it back up again slowly.

I'm interested in your last paragraph. I think it fits with the way most horses seem to learn, then plateau, then learn, then plateau.

I don't do what you do in any pre planned way, but if I look back, I do have periods where I don't try for anything new and just work on what we already know.

 

[Leo Walker]

I will take my time with him to get him out eventing. He may go out as a 5 year old next year and do a handful of events or he might not go out till he is 6. He will let me know when he is ready.

Thats the crux of it. You assess your own horse and monitor its performance. There isnt one set of rules that cover this, there cant be as there are far too many variables! My HW cob had 2 short sessions of jumping as a rising 5yr old. Not something I would usually do with a big lump like that, but those 2 sessions revolutionised his attitude to work. Hes now rising 7 and has jumped 3 times in the past year. He did lots of hacking as a 4yr old and wasnt really asked to work in the school until he was 5. He then had a months professional schooling after being turned away, with the focus on hacking and seeing life. He found school work in walk and trot very easy so he mainly did that with tiny bits of canter, but most of the canter work being done out and about. He then had an easy time and the work was upped when he was 6, again mainly hacking.

Hes now rising 7 and has come down with an horrific bout of metabolic induced lamintis But prior to that he had hacked all summer and was starting school work and baby jumping under saddle, all of which he found easy and had a really can do attitude which is far removed from how he was as a rising 5yr old.

Far, far to slow for lots of sports horse types, but hes a HW croup high cob with a terrible natural canter, so he needed lots of time to grow into himself and develop the strength he needed. Its not what I would have done with another horse, but it was right for that particular horse at that time

 

[ycbm]

Interesting, thanks FC.

what concerns me about my boy is that he is half Clydesdale and has grown an inch in the last nine months. Normally both those would ring alarm bells for me, but he seems to be finding everything very easy. I've never had a horse that was half a heavy like him before, and I'd hate to think he was just a stoic and I wasn't giving him enough time to mature.

I hope your guy is improving, the lami is a terrible shame.

 

[Leo Walker]

Mine found everything easy other than canter in the school. He was happy to do it but had to almost hitch and jump into it in order to get his bum underneath him. His giant ass just had so much power and he didnt have enough strength or balance to utilise it. Trotting was no issue. He was knocking out a reasonable medium trot almost from the start.

I also rode mine lightly and intermittently at a weight that most people on here would scream and shout about. His lower joints have xrayed clean so make of that what you will

And thanks, its been utterly horrific especially as he wasnt overweight and was working and fine, then crippled, and hes negative on every static test for EMS etc, but I am quietly hopeful that we have now turned the corner, and I'm only typing that with all my fingers and toes crossed!

 

[paddi22]

if they are willing and triers then its hard to know when you are overfacing. for those types i tend to be hyper aware of how the muscles feel in the hind end. you can tell when they are starting to get tight or sore. after ever ride i do a really thorough check and see if any areas feel tight or are getting hard or locked in any way. If they don't tell you behaviourally, then you can find out physically!

 

[Goldenstar]

I think it has to be a mixture of setting goals and watching the horse .
I think you need to led by the physical development of the horse so even if the horses mind is ready to do more you need to resist the temptation unless the body is strong enough .
In my mind I always divide developing horses into two halves .
Teaching them things and getting them out doing the job they need to do and developing the physically ( my favourite bit ).
Of course the two are all tied up together but getting the doing the job bit in advance of the physical strength never ends well long term .

 

[rachk89]

My horses training has been very slow, 1. because of my confidence being in tatters for most of the time I've had him (not his fault) and 2. he was 6 when I got him and as he is half warmblood he has not fully grown physically yet. He has only really this year been strong enough to know where to put his legs and start to understand how big he actually is, he hasnt really been aware of that before and often looked clumsy because of it. He still does at times, but he is getting better. But how could I do more advanced lateral work with a horse that isnt aware of its own body? You couldnt, he would get confused. So we're taking it slow again over winter and developing his trot and canter so that he knows how to hold himself correctly, develop his muscles and get him fitter. Until we have those two gaits sorted (as walk is sorted) we cant move onto lateral work like leg yield and that.

I could have rushed him if I had had confidence, but considering how much he has grown in just under 2 years, that would have been stupid. The size difference in him now is huge, not height wise but build wise and he still isnt his full size. He could still have even more muscle on him, so pushing a horse like him will only create a lame one in the future. I want to still be riding him (hopefully) when he's in his 20's and I'm in my 40's. I want a horse for life, not for a few fun competing years, I want him to be happy and healthy for all of his life, he is not just a competition horse.

 

[milliepops]

But how could I do more advanced lateral work with a horse that isnt aware of its own body? You couldnt, he would get confused. So we're taking it slow again over winter and developing his trot and canter so that he knows how to hold himself correctly, develop his muscles and get him fitter. Until we have those two gaits sorted (as walk is sorted) we cant move onto lateral work like leg yield and that.

.

It's interesting and we will all have different approaches, clearly... for me, I wouldn't think of a shallow leg yield as an advanced movement, but as one that helps to develop the horse's balance, self awareness and responsiveness, and therefore an exercise that can help improve the basic paces.

I wouldn't expect a horse to do a perfect example, but introducing the concept of controlled stepping under/sideways would be of benefit, to me, even if they wobble a bit to start with. I guess the question is, how do you condition a body towards this kind of work, without doing any of it at all? Some young horses want to canter with the quarters in, for example... in order to straighten and therefore strengthen them, you have to be able to do a little shoulder-fore otherwise you are conditioning the frame to always tend to be quarter-in. IMO, like I say!

 

[scats]

I read whats underneath me. I've had young horses who have lapped up challenges and i have been able to ask a bit more of them.

Then I have had those who I've had to treat with kid gloves and take it very slowly.
As a rule though, I won't sit on a horse until it's 4. Then they spend the first 6 months hacking and doing very basic school work- walk, trot, introducing canter and very basic yielding away from leg in walk( which I actually believe to be a necessary skill for them to understand early on, the concept of moving away from pressure). They also learn to walk over single poles on the floor, so they don't get a huge shock when jumping is introduced!

They spend the second half of that year doing the same amount of hacking but then increasing school time and building up to trotting poles and some small fences. By the end of their first year I try to have had them out at a few local competitions to see the sights and attempt a ridden class or a mini clear round.

As a 5 year old, I start to increase the workload, ask more challenges with regards fences etc.

It's a formula I have used for over 20 years with youngsters and it works for me. I obviously adapt to the horse but that's my general plan of action.

 

[ycbm]

It's interesting and we will all have different approaches, clearly... for me, I wouldn't think of a shallow leg yield as an advanced movement, but as one that helps to develop the horse's balance, self awareness and responsiveness, and therefore an exercise that can help improve the basic paces.

I wouldn't expect a horse to do a perfect example, but introducing the concept of controlled stepping under/sideways would be of benefit, to me, even if they wobble a bit to start with. I guess the question is, how do you condition a body towards this kind of work, without doing any of it at all? Some young horses want to canter with the quarters in, for example... in order to straighten and therefore strengthen them, you have to be able to do a little shoulder-fore otherwise you are conditioning the frame to always tend to be quarter-in. IMO, like I say!

I agree with this. I use lateral work almost from the beginning. It's also a prerequisite to leg yield of you are going to hack out on very narrow lanes otherwise the cars can't pass.





Great answers thanks folks. All I need to do today is to work out whether the strop I got on what should have been a short hack today was just bolshie young cob or because yesterday he was balancing so well that he got canter walk from my seat without a rein aid, and it took too much out of him!

Crystal ball, anyone?

 

[be positive]

I agree with this. I use lateral work almost from the beginning. It's also a prerequisite to leg yield of you are going to hack out on very narrow lanes otherwise the cars can't pass.





Great answers thanks folks. All I need to do today is to work out whether the strop I got on what should have been a short hack today was just bolshie young cob or because yesterday he was balancing so well that he got canter walk from my seat without a rein aid, and it took too much out of him!

Crystal ball, anyone?

I agree with them learning leg yield before hacking, it is essential that they understand that leg can mean move sideways not just forward I use it from a very early stage and rely on it out hacking to get the horse into the side of the road rather than using my hands.
Introducing simple steps of leg yield early on also helps them become more aware of their body, it helps develop balance, straightness and gives the rider greater control of the horse in most situations.

As for your question about your cob, it could be anything but more than likely he was still thinking about yesterday and wondering when he was going to be asked to do it again to show how clever he is.

 

[rachk89]

It's interesting and we will all have different approaches, clearly... for me, I wouldn't think of a shallow leg yield as an advanced movement, but as one that helps to develop the horse's balance, self awareness and responsiveness, and therefore an exercise that can help improve the basic paces.

I wouldn't expect a horse to do a perfect example, but introducing the concept of controlled stepping under/sideways would be of benefit, to me, even if they wobble a bit to start with. I guess the question is, how do you condition a body towards this kind of work, without doing any of it at all? Some young horses want to canter with the quarters in, for example... in order to straighten and therefore strengthen them, you have to be able to do a little shoulder-fore otherwise you are conditioning the frame to always tend to be quarter-in. IMO, like I say!

Yeah I can get that. I am just worried about doing more than basics when I can only ride at the weekends now you know? He does know how to do it although not gracefully. He does shoulder in better and easily had to use it a lot when he was spooking at everything to the outside of the arena it kept his focus on me.

He has lost a lot of muscle on his back quite quickly recently because of the lack of work. Hence the wanting to take it slow over winter as well i don't think he has the strength to do much at the moment. But once we are back in spring and have more time then we will definitely do more.

 

[milliepops]

He has lost a lot of muscle on his back quite quickly recently because of the lack of work. Hence the wanting to take it slow over winter as well i don't think he has the strength to do much at the moment. But once we are back in spring and have more time then we will definitely do more.

I'd agree with not wanting to do too much when you can't ride in the week, pushing too hard when you can't keep the general fitness up is definitely asking for trouble

I just can't think of a time when I've ridden a horse (in school or outside) without doing some kind of sideways - at one end of the scale, with precision to produce a horse for competition, and at the other end, for basic suppleness or steering/obedience. Like I said, we're all different, nothing wrong with that Having been riding for others again recently I realise that plenty of people don't ride much lateral work at all, it's funny what you get used to.

Oh, and ycbm, I'd not question it too much, just enjoy it! My cob finds her work so easy, she finds collection so natural - I also have to rein in my enthusiasm so as not to take advantage of her willingness, but it doesn't half make it more enjoyable

 

[rachk89]

Yeah at the moment riding every day is just not happening. He got ridden today after 5 days of no riding or lunging at all. Surprisingly he was pretty well behaved but it's still a lot to ask of a horse to do a lot with no work in between.

Hate work and winter.

 

[ycbm]

Yeah at the moment riding every day is just not happening. He got ridden today after 5 days of no riding or lunging at all. Surprisingly he was pretty well behaved but it's still a lot to ask of a horse to do a lot with no work in between.

Hate work and winter.

I remember the days Rach


I've realised that it's a real help to have two. Both boys were 'off' today, just in different ways. Dorkbrain was going ape at his own shadow on the arena. Hendrix refused to 'carry' himself or me on a hilly hack and was running forward. But both, possibly, because of the weather change that's making my broken wrist ache today.

This thread has also helped me realise that my lack of confidence in my own judgement is because I've never trained a heavy horse before. I've no idea what's normal or reasonable for a horse like this. It's hard to tell the difference between 'this is hard because I'm built to carry my weight on my forehand' and 'this is just too hard'.



Thanks for your help guys

 

[Luci07]

How about looking for instruction from someone who seems to specialise in these type of horses? Eg, near me, Mark Ruddock has almost made a career of producing high level dressage horses...from horses that people would never normally consider. A Clydesdale X was one I am pretty sure I watched him ride in a demo years ago.

 

[ycbm]

How about looking for instruction from someone who seems to specialise in these type of horses? Eg, near me, Mark Ruddock has almost made a career of producing high level dressage horses...from horses that people would never normally consider. A Clydesdale X was one I am pretty sure I watched him ride in a demo years ago.

It's a good idea. Can anyone recommend me one in Cheshire/n. Staffs/n. Derbyshire? I did have a great trainer but we had to stop for various reasons and I haven't found another that I click with like her. My current one is more of a riding club trainer, iykwim. Of the last two GP level trainers I tried, one was a bit of a bully and the other spent my lesson chatting on her mobile phone!

 

[LadySam]

I wouldn't expect a horse to do a perfect example, but introducing the concept of controlled stepping under/sideways would be of benefit, to me, even if they wobble a bit to start with. I guess the question is, how do you condition a body towards this kind of work, without doing any of it at all?

Yes, yes, yes. Of course you need to be able to read them mentally and balance what the body and mind is able to cope with, but this concept is very important and forms the basis of so much to come. All of ours start learning this from the ground before getting on them is even considered. When ridden work starts coming into play, every session begins with this groundwork again; we then move on to the ridden part of the session which reinforces the groundwork lessons and transfers it to being ridden.

Regular spells to take the pressure off and digest what they've learnt is also very important, as already stated.

 

[tristar]

i only use leg yield to intro lateral, essential when hacking out.

its main use is to move the horse away from pressure, then use turns on the forehand to re enforce, and on the quarters, and travers a little,if they find it easier and using all these to teach shoulder in, because without an understanding of the previous two the horse is not physically conditioned and can find si confusing.

i back off instantly to all protests and difficulties and do not confront horses, i do something different and interesting to distract them, i am quite undemanding, but i think you need to find the confidence to play with things far above the horses level, gentle repeating movements.

lateral work seems to bring on a horse in fact makes it capable of doing what you want it to, it enables a horse find a new level balance, and most importantly i think it helps the horse to make sense of work because the whole thing starts to come together, the horse starts to mature mentally and i get less donkey days and more `well what are we going to do today days`ears forward in anticipation.

Carole .......... can`t remember the name, trained two half shires to gp and seems to have cracked the code where that sort of horse in concerned, especially relating to the canter

 

[tristar]

caole parsons