Own or loan - WWYD? Help!

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At the moment I have a horse on loan - I’ve had him for 18 months, he was 6 years old when I got him and very very green. I’ve put loads and loads of work into him but he has some longstanding straightness issues that may go back to when his owner broke him in. This means I’ve had to do a lot of work undoing this and essentially re-starting him, with accompanying physio treatment (expensive!) and training (also expensive!) He also has some bargy ignorant behaviours that appear to have arisen due to the treatment he had in the past (being allowed to get away with things)

His owner has said that she will never sell him as she has a lot of emotional attachment to him. He is out on loan because his owner has 2 young children, and she has already said that she won’t be able to have him back for a few years.

At the weekend a friend showed me an advert for a very similar horse in Ireland - rising 4, very scope jump, a real blank canvas, and a good price.

I’m torn what to do now. I am really surprised about how much the idea of owning not loaning is a key factor for me. I am enjoying putting the work in to my present horse, but I always have a nagging doubt that he might be taken away.

Also the idea of not having to unpick a load of problems really appeals!

Obviously this is only a very brief summary but what would you do?
 
Hmm, it does sound as though your loan horse's owner is planning to take him back eventually, so your wariness is understandable.

Can your clarify her intentions? My homebred is out on loan, but the loaners know that I have no intentions of snatching her back or selling her out from underneath them.
 
At rising 4 you'd hope not to know too much about the jumping ability...

Most people on here own and will tell you how great that is. If you can afford it (what would you do if you owned current horse and he went permanently lame?) great. If you'd be in a position of only being able to afford the upkeep of one and not being content to keep that one on retirement and share (not full loan) another then you're essentially signing a death warrant (PTS warrant) for whatever you buy.

I can't (don't want to) afford a horse on retirement livery and so don't own one at all. If I became more financially stable (could afford field ornament) I'd own in the blink of an eye.
 
I have pressed her on the issue but she is quite vague - she has said she will agree to a longer term loan than our initial one year loans when it comes to renewal in May, but that is all.

She has also said that by the time she is in a position to take him back then her children will probably have ponies and hobbies of their own and she won’t have time to have her own horse
 
Lévrier;13678151 said:
At the moment I have a horse on loan - I’ve had him for 18 months, he was 6 years old when I got him and very very green. I’ve put loads and loads of work into him but he has some longstanding straightness issues that may go back to when his owner broke him in. This means I’ve had to do a lot of work undoing this and essentially re-starting him, with accompanying physio treatment (expensive!) and training (also expensive!) He also has some bargy ignorant behaviours that appear to have arisen due to the treatment he had in the past (being allowed to get away with things)

His owner has said that she will never sell him as she has a lot of emotional attachment to him. He is out on loan because his owner has 2 young children, and she has already said that she won’t be able to have him back for a few years.

At the weekend a friend showed me an advert for a very similar horse in Ireland - rising 4, very scope jump, a real blank canvas, and a good price.

I’m torn what to do now. I am really surprised about how much the idea of owning not loaning is a key factor for me. I am enjoying putting the work in to my present horse, but I always have a nagging doubt that he might be taken away.

Also the idea of not having to unpick a load of problems really appeals!

Obviously this is only a very brief summary but what would you do?
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Depends how much you like the Horse. If you love the Horse I would ask owner if she is willing to sell to you and then if you ever sell him she can have first refusal.

If you aren't that attached to the Horse then I would give her notice to say you are returning the Horse.

But I would say the grass isn't always greener on the other side and you might not actually prefer the 4YO. I would have to ride it a few times to make up my mind.
 
GirlFriday said:
At rising 4 you'd hope not to know too much about the jumping ability...

Most people on here own and will tell you how great that is. If you can afford it (what would you do if you owned current horse and he went permanently lame?) great. If you'd be in a position of only being able to afford the upkeep of one and not being content to keep that one on retirement and share (not full loan) another then you're essentially signing a death warrant (PTS warrant) for whatever you buy.

I can't (don't want to) afford a horse on retirement livery and so don't own one at all. If I became more financially stable (could afford field ornament) I'd own in the blink of an eye.
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I’ve always owned before - this is the first horse I’ve had on loan for many years
 
Lévrier;13678158 said:
I have pressed her on the issue but she is quite vague - she has said she will agree to a longer term loan than our initial one year loans when it comes to renewal in May, but that is all.

She has also said that by the time she is in a position to take him back then her children will probably have ponies and hobbies of their own and she won’t have time to have her own horse
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Honestly? I've often thought that by the time you have got to the bottom of him and he is going the way you want him to, she will be ready to have him back.

However, as we all know, finding the perfect horse to buy is not easy ....
 
Rowreach said:
Honestly? I've often thought that by the time you have got to the bottom of him and he is going the way you want him to, she will be ready to have him back.

However, as we all know, finding the perfect horse to buy is not easy ....
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Do you want to go and try him for me? ;) :D :D
 
Unlimited funds and space? Then hang the cost :D (after checking owner is/isn't going to sell of course)
If owner not selling, and the grass IS greener, then purchase new horse.
Keep new and loan horse in livery yard, working both over the next month.
Then either give a months notice to return loan horse, or sell on new purchase, ergo at least 2 months livery fees will be required, if not more.............
 
From reading your posts on here it sounds like you really love the horse you have atm. A pretty picture and a well written advert doesn't mean a whole lot imo, so I'd not be doing anything rash (like shoving a load of pressure on current owner to sell at this point).

It doesn't sound like the horse is going to be snatched away anytime soon at least, so that is something.

What I would do is to get a purchase price for you written into the contract along with a 1st refusal clause at May renewal. That way you (hopefully) get the best of both worlds. Limited long term risk if the current loan just keeps ticking on, but with the ability to send him back if anything awful happens. It also keeps a number in her head. With 2 small children one day she may decide she needs that amount. The flip side is she might decide she wants a riding horse back at some point in the future, but the longer you have him the less like 'her' horse he will be.

Even coming from the point that at some point she might have him back it seems a shame at this point to not enjoy next summer with him when he will be ready to go out and enjoy (from what I have read!) doing things.

It's never easy that's for sure.
 
It sounds to me like your loan horse will probably one day go back especially if you get him going how you would like. I would also say the issues you have had physically with him will probably come back to bite him later in life from my past experience. I wouldn't jump in to owning for the sake of it but I would be looking at a youngster you can bring on from the start in your position.
I am currently trying to explain it to someone whose horse I ride who wants to put it out on loan. I have told her she would be better selling but don't seem to be making progress with that!
 
You have until May to decide which way to go long term so I would invest the time and money into J and assess where you are by the spring, if he is going to do the job for you by then you should have more of an idea, if he is still not really enjoying it then your decision is made for you he can be returned and you can look for a replacement, there are many 4 year olds that will appear to be perfect on paper but the reality is that most will have something you don't like or want so ensure you take off the rose tinted glasses when reading the ads.
 
I would say to the owner that you have decided to buy. You would like to buy her horse but if she will not sell you will return the horse in one month and buy something else.

Faced with the potential of you returning the horse at Christmas time she may change her view
 
I would say it’s easy to focus on a horses faults and think the grass is greener with others. But honestly, they all need really good training, straightening etc. Training a horse is a huge time, emotion and money investment.

So if you are thinking buy something else because it will be better/easier or whatever then I’d say proceed with caution if you have a fundamentally good natured trainable horse at present.

If however you want your work to be put into something that you own I completely get that. Why being on someone else’s horse for them Scott free?!!! For me I would never loan a young horse of someone unless there was a watertight contract in my favour.
 
I think you have come to the point that a lot of people loaning do (and we did) that you are making a such a large monetary, time and emotional investment that the benefits of having your own start to tip the balance.

If you were buying would you want to buy J? I definitely think you could find one with less baggage and I would worry about the effects of his confo long term if owning him (although there would be plenty out there with more issues too I am sure!). Personally I wouldn't have the patience for a 4yo, well or more accurately the 5yo year ;). I hope to be able to have another at some point but I do know that realistically much as I love seeing improvements it is still possible to do that on something that I can just get on and enjoy in the meantime without any issues (I hope that makes sense).
 
ihatework said:
I would say it’s easy to focus on a horses faults and think the grass is greener with others. But honestly, they all need really good training, straightening etc. Training a horse is a huge time, emotion and money investment.

So if you are thinking buy something else because it will be better/easier or whatever then I’d say proceed with caution if you have a fundamentally good natured trainable horse at present.

If however you want your work to be put into something that you own I completely get that. Why being on someone else’s horse for them Scott free?!!! For me I would never loan a young horse of someone unless there was a watertight contract in my favour.
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The latter paragraph for me certainly - I think I was very naive in not realising how much work the loan horse would really need, and also the physical problems have only become more apparent when I have asked him to do more work than his owner did (as she did very very little with him)

The possible alternative horse would need just as much work if not more, but I’d know he had been correctly started. Any other horse might also have physical issues I know
 
Wheels said:
I would say to the owner that you have decided to buy. You would like to buy her horse but if she will not sell you will return the horse in one month and buy something else.

Faced with the potential of you returning the horse at Christmas time she may change her view
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I would do this. I prefer to buy young horses and still don't like the idea of loaning. I put so much effort into a loan horse a few years back, the owner wouldn't sell her to me and then snatched her back when she had a nice well behaved horse, then sold her further down the line.
I put one of my horses out on loan to a lovely gentleman, he got along with her much better than I did and I sold her to him a few weeks back after he asked to buy her.
Now I have a young project. If you have the time and money to put into your own horse then go for it :)
 
I have a young horse on loan at the and like you I am putting a lot of time, energy and money into him. Fortunately he is a blank canvas and the loan is a permanent arrangement, I don’t think I would want to put this much effort in if I thought he might have to go back, also I am very attached to him already!
 
My horse is being trialled at the moment to go on loan. I have always said I would never ever sell her, I want to secure her future etc, and I adore her, (time is the factor in her loan) BUT the person trialling her is wonderful, my horse loves her, and they go well together. I would never ever snatch her away- the most important thing to me is my horse being happy and going well. If they had plans for a season, again, I wouldn't take her back. And if it came to it, I might consider selling to this particular person as we are having a long trial (both of us wanting that) and she really is fab. My point being: I would never want to sell her, but I would also never take her back if everything was going well, and if it turned out to be REALLY good and she was this persons horse of a lifetime? I might consider selling. So maybe this owner knows deep down she won't have much time and may not have her horse back to ride herself, but she just wants to secure his future and that is why she is loaning, so won't just rip the horse from under you. Maybe just voice your concerns to her? She may say that if she wanted him back, she would wait for you to finish the season and find another before she takes him back.
 
I'd never loan a horse who needed a lot of work putting in. A friend's daughter has a pony out injured so she loaned a talented but quirky pony who was out of work as no jockey and could not sell. It was meant to be a 2 year loan. They have put a huge amount of time, effort and money into the pony who is now doing well showjumping and is on the NSEA and PC teams. Suddenly the owners want to sell over a year earlier than originally agreed. I did have a horse a while back on short term loan while my friend, the owner, was hurt and could not look after him. She wanted me to loan him longer term or buy him. I decided to buy even though I knew he was not the one for me long-term because he needed a HUGE amount of work and putting that amount of work into someone else's horse just feels unsatisfying. Even if it's just a sale project once they are yours they feel more worth the effort and investment to me. But I know other people have loaned very successfully so it just depends on who you are loaning from and how much you can trust what they say. I would definitely negotiate a first refusal clause at an agreed price in the contract .
 
My loan agreement for my 6yo homebred assigned her an agreed modest value as at when my lovely loaners took her on a year ago.

If at any point circs changed and they bought her, it would be for no more than this fixed sum. Also, if at any point they felt they had got as far with her as they could and we agreed that she should be sold, they will keep any increase in value above the agreed sum. They have put a huge amount of work into her and she's twice the horse that she was when they first had her, and it's only fair that their investment is protected.
 
Personally I would start to look at buying something - you are starting to spend money on pro training for J and that is money that you could spend getting a nice 6yo of your own schooled up.

Three reasons to keep a horse that isn't yours - emotional attachment, you enjoy the training aspect, or they do the job you want now. I suspect J only meets the first of those, which is fine, but is that enough?
 
If only more people were like you Tiddlypom! Many loaners seem to start seeing pound signs when their horses increase dramatically in value and saleability.
 
I think you need to speak to the owner and get there thoughts on losing term plans.
They may decide to sell to you, horse has got on well they have had a break and the money would probably come in handy.
Or if they want to continue to loan and you don’t feel confident then tell them to may go ahead and buy an other horse so they can have a plan if horse is sent back to them.
 
DabDab said:
Personally I would start to look at buying something - you are starting to spend money on pro training for J and that is money that you could spend getting a nice 6yo of your own schooled up.

Three reasons to keep a horse that isn't yours - emotional attachment, you enjoy the training aspect, or they do the job you want now. I suspect J only meets the first of those, which is fine, but is that enough?
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This exactly ^^

I didn't actually realise you loaned J, I think the position you are in of having to pump a great deal of resource into J when the fact of it is the owner does want him back so you have no chance of buying, i would be looking for something to buy. You have a great support network so could find yourself a nice blank 5/6yo.

The big thing when i was buying was i didn't want to be undoing someone elses bad training, with a modest budget that left me limited to raw 4yo's - but i now have 10x the horse I could have bought 'ready made' and am probably at the same point 2years down the line if i had been undoing lots of problems on the way!
 
Wheels said:
I would say to the owner that you have decided to buy. You would like to buy her horse but if she will not sell you will return the horse in one month and buy something else.

Faced with the potential of you returning the horse at Christmas time she may change her view
Click to expand...

This.
 
ihatework said:
I would say it’s easy to focus on a horses faults and think the grass is greener with others. But honestly, they all need really good training, straightening etc. Training a horse is a huge time, emotion and money investment.

So if you are thinking buy something else because it will be better/easier or whatever then I’d say proceed with caution if you have a fundamentally good natured trainable horse at present.

If however you want your work to be put into something that you own I completely get that. Why being on someone else’s horse for them Scott free?!!! For me I would never loan a young horse of someone unless there was a watertight contract in my favour.
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^^ this, for me :)

I gave up a loan because the owner wouldn't sell - he was a lovely horse who I enjoyed immensely but he also had issues (buckaroo!) which I was spending a lot of time resolving. Owner had no use for him but was adamant she wouldn't sell, so back he went :(

But I would take your time to choose the next one, this 4yo might be perfect or might not. But doesn't have to be this one, in fact it would possibly be easier if you found something closer that you could try a few times and really make sure it was the one for you :)
 
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