Pain? Or just plain naughty?

kc100

kc100

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So have been having issues with naughty share horse since I got her at the end of Aug. She is a 6yr old WBxTB mare out of the GP dressage stallion Pro-Set (notoriously difficult horse).

Before I had her (I'm part loaning her from her owner's yard - owner runs a livery yard, this is where my mare was born) she was at a professional schooling and breaking yard run by owner's friends, as owner has no time to ride her she sent her down to this yard to keep her ticking over. Bloke who rode her down there had problems with her for about 3 weeks (bucking, swinging quarters in, going sideways, kicking out, stopping dead) but then she got over it and worked nicely for him. He even took her out to her first prelim comps where she was scoring 67% ish.

Fast forward to me - she is doing the same behaviour as described above but every time I ride her, and this has been going on for 3 months now. We had her checked for pain when she first arrived so I went very softly on her whilst we were checking her out - got a new saddle as old one didnt fit great, new bit, teeth done, physio out for some treatment on her poll/neck and vet checked her too - didnt find anything wrong. So technically there is nothing wrong with her now, she has had all the relevant checks and treatment and was given the all clear.

Trot we have just about got under control, when I first started riding her the trot was awful - every time I asked for a transition we'd have wild broncing and silliness. Took about 2 months to get trot sorted (new trainer has really helped). Last night had another lesson with trainer working on canter - canter transitions are truly awful. Huge bucks and kicking out, throwing her head up as if she is going to rear, going sideways etc. We worked out a way to keep her calmer when asking for canter (asking for canter on a small circle then allowing her onto a bigger circle if she is good) but we had a good 45 minutes of wild crazy horse!

She never did this when I tried her, she was never this bad with the bloke who used to ride her and she is ridden by the head girl at the yard a couple of times a week and does not do this to her when she rides (she has one or two little bucks into canter but then settles). So seemingly she acts like this just with me!

I'm fairly sure it is her terrible attitude and being a royal pain in the bum, because the trot eventually settled down (we used to have bucking every time I asked for trot - that has gone) perhaps the canter will settle down in another couple of months. But something in the back of my mind is telling me no horse would act like this on purpose, the bucks are wild and huge at times. Any opinions? Pain or just a naughty mare?
 
Has the chap rode her again since you have had her?
What did he do to stop her evasion? A lesson with him maybe of use.
How good would you say you are at riding? It maybe she needs a pro and just takes mick otherwise!
 
The fact that she is ok with the headgirl suggests it isn't pain.

I think you will need to pick apart what is different between you/how you ride.
 
fburton said:
What does she have against you but not against the bloke who used to ride her?
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Haha I wish I knew! I ride to a relatively decent standard I think (trainers always say I ride well), been riding for over 18 years and competed to Novice level dressage (schooling some elem at home). This is my first experience with a mare though so new territory in that respect, and when this first started I was so worried she was in pain that I was very soft on her and quite forgiving of the bucks so part of me wonders if she thinks I'm a push over because I was so soft on her at first.

We havent been able to get the pro rider back up to ride her unfortunately, he lives quite a distance away (about 2 hour drive) and because they are running their own business with very few staff to help they dont get much chance to leave the yard. I'd really like to get him up to watch him ride her to see if she tries it on with him!

I've heard some mares prefer men, they did have a special bond so maybe she is just one of those mares that responds better to a male rider?! When she was doing her evasion tactics he would push on through it and eventually she would stop but if I try and push on through a buck etc she just bucks bigger! So the tactics he used dont seem to work when I'm riding - very odd!

As for vet checks - scans/X-Rays were done and a general once over I think, I wasnt there so cant fully confirm (owner was there with vet) though. She doesnt show any symptoms of anything else at all, can lunge her in her tack and she is great, sometimes full of beans and gets excited on the lunge but never the dramatics we have with me on her back.

Think I am going to try and watch head girl ride her one day to see if I can spot any differences. My trainer has said she is just full of attitude and thinks she knows best, so when you ask for something she doesnt want to do she gets annoyed and bucks. Took her to my other trainer (visiting trainer from Spain) and he said she has been allowed to rush on her forehand too much therefore whenever you ask her to slow down, work correctly over the back and not hang on my hands she gets grumpy and the attitude comes out.

I've been getting her to slow down, not rush, to be in self carriage and I have been riding with super light hands (hardly any contact at all) - new trainer advised this because before I started with new trainer I was admittedly quite heavy with her to keep her round in case she bucks (only bucks when she can get her head up). That resulted in us having an argument, normally with her winning or my arms killing me after I get off! So new approach is to be super light and super soft, to get her round then leave her alone and she should feel like 'putty' in my hands.
 
Does sound like you are giving up a little bit quick.

Yes all horses get worse when you push the point as its an evasion, sounds like he just kept pushing her forwards till she gave then, and then rewarded her.

Equally sounds like you are working her in a way that she finds quite hard, I know my girl will only tolerate 5 mins of working in a new way before I need to give her a break and do something different.

Cant you box the horse there and have a lesson? I presume owner wants the problem solved too?
 
I still think pain is on the list of possibilities. Different riding styles will be easier or less easy for a horse to cope with. Plus really strong riders can force horses to put up with a certain degree of pain.

The first rider had big problems for three weeks, the horse bucks with the head girl and she's far worse with the OP. Has this horse ever not objected to being ridden?
 
A proset / TB will be a lot of horse to handle .
If all the health checks have been done then you have handle the behaviour , I have handled exactly the same before naughty horse ridden forward strongly when naughty reacted badly when we had to start settling it all down and get the back end working .
Of course I have never seen this horse but I would be thinking along the lines of
If you have access to a walker use it two sessions a day .
Turnout as much as possible .
As little hard food as possible and two work sessions a day if you can .
I would hack out lots if she where mine .
And lead her from another horse.
I would also give no days off for a while.
I would give as varied life as possible
I would ride the horse in a jumping saddle for a while and I would just canter until the horse gave it up I would just do lots of transitions to canter and back to trot and work and longer periods for canter one I will canter a naughty horse for Half an hour if that is want it takes until it realises being a nut about is hard work.( you can use an off the back seat for periods )
I would consider perhaps putting on a bungee rein to give you an edge and seeing if that helps for a while and always use a neck strap.
Keep your trainer helping you as much as possible it's much easier to be brave with someone on the ground says ,do that rather than being on top thinking should I do this should I do this .
 
My last horse did this in transitions - firstly when going into canter and then started doing it when asked for trot. To cut a very long (and expensive!) story short it turned out to be kissing spines. But it took vets and physios about 5 months to work it out. Eventually they said let's do some x-rays and there it was. While we were still trying to work out what the problem was we suspected naughtiness/teenage tantrums (she was 5) and when an instructor rode her and was firm with her she would settle down, but it was clearly because she didn't like being told off, gritted her teeth and did her best to obey. Still feel very guilty about that. Once we knew how much pain she was in we realised how good she had actually been.:(
 
No, the kissing spines were right where her saddle would sit, and although the vet talked to me about operating I could tell he didn't think it was worth it for a horse that had cost £2,000 and I used for low-level (prelim dressage/2ft jumping etc) fun and competing. There is a big risk of infection at that part of the back and she would have needed very careful nursing for months and months. The whole of her back was excluded on the insurance because the vet had noticed slight stiffness in her neck when she was vetted, and the operation would have cost several thousand. I was incredibly lucky and managed to sell her as a field companion, which was the best result I could have wished for. I did try the equine blood bank but they were full at the time.
 
Faracat said:
I still think pain is on the list of possibilities. Different riding styles will be easier or less easy for a horse to cope with. Plus really strong riders can force horses to put up with a certain degree of pain.

The first rider had big problems for three weeks, the horse bucks with the head girl and she's far worse with the OP. Has this horse ever not objected to being ridden?
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These would be my thoughts and questions too. Also, for those who say she's just trying to get out of work - what the mare is doing is actually harder work than what she would be doing if she was doing what the rider asks - either she is incredibly stupid and unable to connect "do as asked" with "rider gets off my case", she has an as yet undetected problem that can only be masked temporarily by a very determined rider, or something about current rider bothers her.
 
dianchi said:
Does sound like you are giving up a little bit quick.

Yes all horses get worse when you push the point as its an evasion, sounds like he just kept pushing her forwards till she gave then, and then rewarded her.

Equally sounds like you are working her in a way that she finds quite hard, I know my girl will only tolerate 5 mins of working in a new way before I need to give her a break and do something different.

Cant you box the horse there and have a lesson? I presume owner wants the problem solved too?
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Thanks everyone - going to try and answer all your queries.

Dont have transport unfortunately - can just about beg/borrow/steal if I want to go to a comp (albeit havent been to a comp on naughty pony!) thats about 20 mins away but would be taking the mick a bit to ask someone to do a 4 hour round trip for me.
 
Faracat said:
I still think pain is on the list of possibilities. Different riding styles will be easier or less easy for a horse to cope with. Plus really strong riders can force horses to put up with a certain degree of pain.

The first rider had big problems for three weeks, the horse bucks with the head girl and she's far worse with the OP. Has this horse ever not objected to being ridden?
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You are right - she has always objected to being ridden, she has had attitude from the day she was born (apparently). Was a challenge to break in, challenge when first schooling etc. She is one of these mares that thinks she owns the place, thinks she knows best and doesnt like being told otherwise!
 
Goldenstar said:
A proset / TB will be a lot of horse to handle .
If all the health checks have been done then you have handle the behaviour , I have handled exactly the same before naughty horse ridden forward strongly when naughty reacted badly when we had to start settling it all down and get the back end working .
Of course I have never seen this horse but I would be thinking along the lines of
If you have access to a walker use it two sessions a day .
Turnout as much as possible .
As little hard food as possible and two work sessions a day if you can .
I would hack out lots if she where mine .
And lead her from another horse.
I would also give no days off for a while.
I would give as varied life as possible
I would ride the horse in a jumping saddle for a while and I would just canter until the horse gave it up I would just do lots of transitions to canter and back to trot and work and longer periods for canter one I will canter a naughty horse for Half an hour if that is want it takes until it realises being a nut about is hard work.( you can use an off the back seat for periods )
I would consider perhaps putting on a bungee rein to give you an edge and seeing if that helps for a while and always use a neck strap.
Keep your trainer helping you as much as possible it's much easier to be brave with someone on the ground says ,do that rather than being on top thinking should I do this should I do this .
Click to expand...

I do think it is a bit to do with her breeding as well - those that know Pro-Set know how difficult he was and then add TB in there, its a recipe for disaster! No walker unfortunately so dont have that option - would be great though!

Turnout is for 6-7 hours a day, 7 days per week all year round. Very docile in the field, never the type to have a run around in the field! She is on minimal hard feed, she is naturally a bit of a fatty so doesnt need much bless her! Hacking we have just started, with the pro yard she was at before they didnt have any hacking due to a dual carriageway in front of the yard so it is new to her, but took her out at the weekend with other horses and she was an angel. Didnt spook at anything so will be doing that every weekend (cant hack during week due to work hours and lack of daylight!).

Currently exercised by me 4 days per week (trying to do 2-3 schooling sessions with pole work - she hates jumping but can cope with poles on the floor) and one hack per week. Might try and hack twice a week if I can. Then ridden a couple of times by head girl so she gets exercised 5-6 times per week. She only has a dressage saddle so no access to other saddles unfortunately. Again cantering is the biggest problem so cant just get her into canter to allow her to burn it off, the canter transition is where we get the most bucks and then sometimes even just cantering along the long side she will throw in a few more for good measure.
 
Faracat said:
This would be very useful to know.

ETA - OP please look after yourself, I don't want to read an update on this situation that you've written from a hospital bed.
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Thanks for the concern :) she never does it so badly where I feel unsafe otherwise I would have stopped by now, dont know if this makes sense to anyone but they feel more like 'attitude' kicking out not bucks that can get you off. She obviously could have me off if she really wanted but doesnt do anything so bad that I'd fall off. Helps that I have a sticky bum too :D
 
Cowpony said:
My last horse did this in transitions - firstly when going into canter and then started doing it when asked for trot. To cut a very long (and expensive!) story short it turned out to be kissing spines. But it took vets and physios about 5 months to work it out. Eventually they said let's do some x-rays and there it was. While we were still trying to work out what the problem was we suspected naughtiness/teenage tantrums (she was 5) and when an instructor rode her and was firm with her she would settle down, but it was clearly because she didn't like being told off, gritted her teeth and did her best to obey. Still feel very guilty about that. Once we knew how much pain she was in we realised how good she had actually been.:(
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Did your horse have any other symptoms? Or was it just bucking when ridden? I'd be interested to hear as part of me does wonder if there is a physical reason for being so naughty.
 
Pigeon said:
Does she still act out in transitions on the lunge?

Also how much work is she getting per week?
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No acting out at all on the lunge (walks, trots, canters on both reins), in tack and without tack. Transitions are great on the lunge. Can sometimes have a buck if there is a gelding nearby though!
 
Brightbay said:
These would be my thoughts and questions too. Also, for those who say she's just trying to get out of work - what the mare is doing is actually harder work than what she would be doing if she was doing what the rider asks - either she is incredibly stupid and unable to connect "do as asked" with "rider gets off my case", she has an as yet undetected problem that can only be masked temporarily by a very determined rider, or something about current rider bothers her.
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Completely agree with this - the bucking and pratting about is far harder for her than just doing what I'm asking. Like last night in our lesson, she was soaked through with sweat by the time we had finished, not because we had done hard work but because the bucks were so big and so frequent!
 
kc100 said:
No acting out at all on the lunge (walks, trots, canters on both reins), in tack and without tack. Transitions are great on the lunge. Can sometimes have a buck if there is a gelding nearby though!
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Have you tried a lunge lesson? Just thinking of situations where its ok and testing them!
 
kc100 said:
Did your horse have any other symptoms? Or was it just bucking when ridden? I'd be interested to hear as part of me does wonder if there is a physical reason for being so naughty.
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The only other symptom was very mild (as in slightly unlevel rather than hopping) non-specific lameness in her front legs, which is why it took so long to diagnose. Vet did nerve blocks, put horse on box rest, she'd come back sound after a week and then go lame again shortly after we started riding her again.

TBH the only reason we even knew she was lame was because the vet spotted it when treating her for a cut.
 
Hi there, just read through this with interest.

My lad was a serious bucker - at first it was just youth, and then later, it was definitely caused by a new saddle. I had to switch to treeless, and we have never looked back (though he still has it in him !).

My honest opinion, fwiw, is that there is a pain issue here. Maybe it's not the back, but it really sounds as if the horse is telling you something serious. Before it goes on any longer, at the risk of one of you getting hurt, I would get the vet out and get a full check up done, including new xrays. Just because this man may have been able to "control her", it doesn't mean that she was not in pain at the time.

If you do get the all clear, I would perhaps suggest you just walk her for a good few weeks, without a single transition, and really get to know her, hack her, chat with her. Get her on a good calmer. Then try adding a few paces of trot, and build up very slowly. I have never had a mare, but I've read a lot on here that they can take a LONG time to bond with a new owner. Perhaps she's had a hard time in the past because she is deemed "naughty".

Good luck, and keep us posted - very interesting.
 
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