palamino?

R

rachaelv2005

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 April 2008
Messages
177
Visit site
Im thinking of breeding from my ID x mare next year and thinking I might prefer her to be covered naturally have been looking for a stallion locally. I have been recommended a very nice warmblood just down the road. However he is palamino and while I have no dislike of palaminos, a friand has advised I would be very likely to get a Palamino from my dark bay mare. I would be hoping to show, probably on hunter classes and as Palaminos are not seen a being very traditional, I may be disadvantaged. Has anyone had experience of this and what is the llikelihood of the foal being Palamino?
 
Hmmm... I'm know very little about coat colour genetics.. but I'm pretty sure your chances of getting a palomino from a bay mare is about 1/6 when using a palomino stallion...
 
Actually you can get a full range of colours from a breeding a bay to a palomino. What colour the foal will be depends among other things on whether or not the palomino is a carrier of the agouti gen (agouti makes a genetically black horse into a brown/bay coloured horse, it doesnot show on red-based horses but can be carried by them), and on what the agouti and Extension (black colour gene) gene state is of the bay mare (if she is homozygous voor agouti = she can never have a black coloured foal; if she is heterozygous for Extension (Ee) then she carries red and black and can give a chestnut).
So what are the percentages? Without specific knowledge of the above, then generally speaking these are the chances:
29.17% - Buckskin
29.17% - Bay
16.67% - Palomino
16.67% - Chestnut
4.17% - Smoky Black
4.17% - Black
 
Thanks for that, I have nothing against palaminos!! In fact theyre beautiful, Im more annoyed with the fact that I very rarely see a Palamino do well in a showing class!!!!!!!
 
I have a warmblood palomino coloured mare that has both done well in dressage, jumping and show. Must admit though that I live on the Continent and Palomino's in sport although not widely seen aren't exactly a rareity either.
 
Colour Fan - I am very ignorant about colour genetics, but just noticed that you are new here, and wanted to say hello and welcome!
smile.gif
 
Thank You for the welcome!
I have (excluding study time abroad) always had horses and ponies. During the last 35 odd years I have kept up with the colour genetics and have to admit am still learning because of all the new discoveries.
At present I have 3 mares of which two are in foal for the beginning of May and hopefully they will be single-dillute creme foals (if I'm lucky palomino).
 
Very nice to have you here - it's a v friendly forum with lots of expert breeders; I've learnt so much from them!

What's the difference between creme (cream?) and cremello, or are they the same thing?

(Where are you in Belgium - my mother lives there, and my stallion has some foals there too, so I visit quite often!)
 
I live in the North East (de Kempen) part of Belgium so if you are planning to visit and are in the area, come and visit!!

Creme/cream is the name of the gene, cremello is the name of the colour expression on a horse.
 
Thanks Colour fan, you sure sound like you know your stuff! I guess bloodtests is the only way to be sure about the colour genes my mare carries?
confused.gif
 
Im no expert, but if neither of your mares parents are chesnut, then you shouldnt get a palomino, as palomino is basically a diluted chestnut! It all depends wether your mare carries the red gene.
smile.gif
 
The red (chestnut) gene is recessive, so it can hide in a bay, brown, or black horse and pop up when you least expect it to!!!!

If a bay horse has one chestnut parent, you can be assured that it is carrying a red gene, but even from 2 bay parents, you can still get a chestnut foal.

The only guarantee in breeding, colour wise, is that you will definitely not get a bay, brown or black from 2 chestnut parents.
grin.gif
grin.gif
grin.gif
 
...and if you breed a chestnut to a cremello you are guaranteed a palomino!

But I am told it is very difficult to find really good cremellos?

I like palominos. My chestnut boy had 2 palomino foals from super cremello mares this year, and has another 3 palominos due next year!

What's the breeding (colour-wise, I mean) of your gorgeous dun/buckskin boy cruiseline? And is he dun or buckskin? I can never remember!
 
Do any of you colour experts know what colours one gets when breeding a chestnut to a black?

I think it depends on something involving a lot of 'e's and 'a's and 'E's and 'A's, but I can't for the life of me remember what!
confused.gif
 
I bred chestnut to black and got black .
But my black stallion (not homozygous) has also covered many chestnut mares and they have mostly come out very dark bay or black with an odd chestnut thrown in.
Thats my non scientific therory
grin.gif
 
So Sally....If I put my mare Elysia to your gorgeous boy, I would likely get a bay or balck but may get a chestnut if one or both of her parents are chestnut!!???
My goodness
confused.gif
I think Ill buy a couple of goldfish instead
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Do any of you colour experts know what colours one gets when breeding a chestnut to a black?

I think it depends on something involving a lot of 'e's and 'a's and 'E's and 'A's, but I can't for the life of me remember what!
confused.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on if the Black carries Chestnut AND if the Chestnut carries Bay/Brown !!! (A’s At's and E’s)

If the black carries chestnut and the chestnut has no Bay/Brown genes its 50/50 black or chestnut (Ee aa to ee aa)

If the chestnut carries one bay/brown gene and the foal inherits black then it’s 50/50 bay to black (EE aa or Ee aa to ee Aa)

If like my mares the chestnut has two bay/brown genes and the foal inherits black then NO black! (EE aa or Ee aa to ee AA)


If the black has two black genes and the chestnut no bay genes then you are guaranteed a black but it will carry a chestnut. (EE aa to ee aa).

BUT then there is the theory of the Dominant black which can override A, as reported in Fresians!

Personally I think that the genotype aa is quite rare, especially in TB's, it would be really interesting to do some research.
 
[ QUOTE ]
...and if you breed a chestnut to a cremello you are guaranteed a palomino!

But I am told it is very difficult to find really good cremellos?



[/ QUOTE ]

Because the effect of the creme gene is amplified when a horse inherits 2 copies it is very difficult to tell if it is a cremello (Chestnut with 2 cream genes) a Perlino (Bay/Brown with 2 cream genes) or a Smokey Cream (Black with 2 cream genes) Hence the cry from unsuspecting breeders, my cremello has never produce a palomino!

However genetic tests are at a very reasonable price now at around £16 and a few mane hairs, just waiting for the last of this years foals results to come back, then I will know for sure.
 
.....so if I have a genetic test, would I be able to find out if my mare carries a red gene and if so know the likeli hood of her throwing a palamino if I put her to a palamino stallion?
....
 
exactly foxtrot, if she doesn't have the red gene, then you are down to probably a 50/50 chance of buckskin or bay. I think a buckskin hunter would be absolutely fine in the show ring as most of the judges will assume it has some good old Irish Connemara blood in it. They only dont like 'modern' or unusual things - like those filthy warmbloods
wink.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
So Sally....If I put my mare Elysia to your gorgeous boy, I would likely get a bay or balck but may get a chestnut if one or both of her parents are chestnut!!???
My goodness
confused.gif
I think Ill buy a couple of goldfish instead
grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Thats right but most of mine have tended to be darker than the mares.
I have one chestnut out of a bay mare but she would always like to have been chestnut really .
This mare has huge amounts of chestnut in the dams sire line as well as grey and chestnut in the dam line.
The full brother to this foal was born bright bay like his mother but has now turned sooty bay and is darkening all the time as is the chestnut filly who will eventually go liver.
May I's mother was Liver chestnut but he was by a true breeding bay stallion.
His mothers sire was also Black which is why i am guessing that we can get black foals.
This is out of a bright chestnut PBA mare with 4 white socks and a white blaze< she is two
whinnienew.jpg


And this is out of a chestnut Pure Bred arab mare and is also two
PashaKent.jpg


I actually think he has thrown more chestnuts to grey mares tbh but pale ones my dapple grey mare has thrown very black grey and black.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do any of you colour experts know what colours one gets when breeding a chestnut to a black?

I think it depends on something involving a lot of 'e's and 'a's and 'E's and 'A's, but I can't for the life of me remember what!
confused.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on if the Black carries Chestnut AND if the Chestnut carries Bay/Brown !!! (A’s At's and E’s)

If the black carries chestnut and the chestnut has no Bay/Brown genes its 50/50 black or chestnut (Ee aa to ee aa)

If the chestnut carries one bay/brown gene and the foal inherits black then it’s 50/50 bay to black (EE aa or Ee aa to ee Aa)

If like my mares the chestnut has two bay/brown genes and the foal inherits black then NO black! (EE aa or Ee aa to ee AA)


If the black has two black genes and the chestnut no bay genes then you are guaranteed a black but it will carry a chestnut. (EE aa to ee aa).

BUT then there is the theory of the Dominant black which can override A, as reported in Fresians!

Personally I think that the genotype aa is quite rare, especially in TB's, it would be really interesting to do some research. [/quote

Thank you! In the case I am thinking of, the sire is chestnut, but with one bay parent and one chestnut. The dam is black, from two black parents. But of the dam's black parents, one is grey x bay and the other is bay x chestnut.

Any ideas on what this pair might produce, or would one have to get the sire/dam/both tested?

The mare owner does not mind what colour the foal comes out, and nor do I - just curious!

The foal is due next spring...
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]

What's the breeding (colour-wise, I mean) of your gorgeous dun/buckskin boy cruiseline? And is he dun or buckskin? I can never remember!

[/ QUOTE ]

He is a buckskin, his mother is palomino and his father looks like a possible black and tan, not sure, but definitely a very dark brown. So he is carrying a black gene and a red gene, which means he could produce both palominos and buckskins from any colour mare (especially if a bay mare was hiding a recessive red gene).

grin.gif
grin.gif
 
LMAO Yeah, thats the impression I get. and although I am aware that those warmbloods are indeed very versatle I am also acutely aware that I should be conscious of the traditionalism that is showing!!
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
If the black has two black genes and the chestnut no bay genes then you are guaranteed a black but it will carry a chestnut. (EE aa to ee aa)

[/ QUOTE ]

The written description is perhaps a little incorrect, (not the genetic formula), because the black horse i.e two copies of the black gene may well be dark bay not black, with the apprearance of a black horse so we need to identify the agouti status. So technically we would need to add: If the black has two black genes and is agouti negative and the chestnut is agouti negative then the resulting foal will be black.
smile.gif


In the scenario mentioned a hetrozygous agouti / homozygous black can produce bays if bred to a chestnut mare.

Some describe a black as a horse that is agouti negative, as the distribution of the black hairs is throughout the coat, however these true blacks can carry the red factor. We have a black tobiano mare agouti negative, however she also has the red gene.

Our homozygous black stallion is however hetrozygous agouti (darkbay), so he can produce bay offspring to chestnut mares.

So if these two combinations are bred together, the resulting foal could be black tobiano bay tobiano bay or black.

Foxtrot, if you want find out if you could get a palomino foal, the simple answer is to pull a few hairs from her mane and send if off to www.avianbiotech.co.uk and test her to see if she carries the red gene. If she does then yes she could produce a palomino and if she doesn't then no she can't.
 
hi, the stallion your talking about doesn't happen to be Angel k/starebogaards apollo does it, just thought it might be as he's a palamino dressage stallion in kent? If it is then my mare had a foal by him this year, a buckskin filly although my mare, how is a irish bred pony by cavalier royale is I think completely brown genetics wise (dam and sire both bay/brown).
 
The black can either be homozygous for the Extension gene (EE) and can genetically only give 'black' based coloured foals, or it can be heterozygous for the Extension gene (Ee) which means that it can both give 'black' based and 'red' based coloured foals. A phenotype (how it looks on the outside) black coloured horse ALWAYS carries recessive form (aa) of the Agouti gene. This gene makes a genotye (the genetic makeup ... what you don't see) black horse into a phenotype brown/bay coloured horse, only one gen (A?) is necessary to effect this colour change (AA or Aa).
So the black is : EE/Ee aa

The chestnut is always ee (being the recessive form of the Extension gene) BUT! because the Agouti gene only influences black 'coloured' hairs but 'banishing' them to the extremities (manes, tails, legs) a chestnut coloured horse can carry this gene without showing it. A chestnut (red-based) horse is phenotypically (red) en genetypically (red) the same = ee
The chestnut can be : ee aa/Aa/AA

So ...
Option 1: EE aa x ee aa = 100% black
Option 2: EE aa x ee Aa = 50/50 black or brown/bay
Option 3: EE aa x ee AA = 100% brown/bay
Option 4: Ee aa x ee aa = 50/50 black or chestnut
Option 5: Ee aa x ee Aa = black, bay or chestnut
Option 6: Ee aa x ee AA = 50/50 bay or chestnut
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top