Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

I haven't seen what happened, only people who were there have. Therefore none of us not there can really judge.

From what has been described many horses are treated a lot worse than this day in day out. I may not say it was cruel but NO WAY would anyone ever treat a horse of mine like that.

This sort of technique would I imagine be called 'flooding'. Where the animal is forced to confront his fears with no way out. If I had for example a phobia of spiders I have 2 options. The flooding technique where you can lock me in a room full of spiders until I realise after however many hours of terror that I am still alive as ponyboy would put it. Or I can be desensitised involving gradually more and more exposure to spiders over a period of time. I know which option I would choose to get over my fear.

Playing devils advocate, perhaps every other method has failed for his horse and various other behaviour specialists have been consulted (though I doubt this). If this method has worked for this horse then in the long run perhaps it was for the best so he is not traumatised every single day by being bridled using force. But any way you look at it the correct place was not in public view making the proceedure even more scarey and traumatic.
 
Why so little of session one shown in the video if there was nothig wrong with it???
Also the horse still has gum line in in the session in the stable.
Keep it natural? indeed!
 
it's the only one I could find. It would be very interesting if the Whittakers were contacted to ask their thoughts on this ? I mean, there name is being dragged thru the mud too ?
 
I wanted to see the whole thing not about 5 seconds of friday. Hopefully someone else will have filmed it or something if this is all they are going to publish.
 
Having caught up, I have no idea what to think. I want to see the WHOLE thing. From start to finish. I'm completely confused.


Catwalk appears to be OK having his bridle on and off ears and face messed with at the end of the video. He looks quite happy?

Unless he is doped (don't think so) something he strenuously objected to is now no longer troubling him in the slightest. Am I missing something?

I admit I am totally torn, as I know ponydentist personally and would be VERY surprised if he didn't see right through any hocus pocus and snake oil, and he'd be the first to speak up about it.

PP's showmanship isn't my cup of tea, frankly, and it often overshadows any talent he may have for producing results BUT Catwalk now appears happy to have his bridle on, and all fear and anxiety have gone from the dreadful arguments he has had to be involved in, presumably, daily... He isn't afraid of PP either - unless that's not Catwalk. Did the end justify the means and were the means really as bad as have been described?

Why does pd appear to have seen a different scenario to KS1? (Was it KS1?)

It's a whole other can of worms as to whether it was irresponsible to undertake this as a demo, and certainly a welfare issue if, every day he is ridden, this horse has to endure the ten minutes plus 'bridling battle'.

Either he is bridled and ridden or not bridled and not ridden, and that is simply not an option here.

We can argue all day long about the rights and wrongs of the daily doings we have with our horses, from keeping them in stables to having them wear shoes and showjump (just picked a few things at random!) as many, if not most of us, have done.

My head hurts. It would be nice to know Catwalk's is trouble free now.
 
Last edited:
hollycat

Just read your post and agree )" If this method has worked for this horse then in the long run perhaps it was for the best so he is not traumatised every single day by being bridled using force."

In essence.
 
Am about to watch the vid, so glad SOMETHING has been posted, but after reading PD's posts I will simply re-post what I said this morning before he did...

The thing is, if you were in, say Spain, and you saw a man tying a horse's leg up and laying it down there would be outrage. It would be considered *breaking a horse's spirit* and yes, demeaning it in many people's eyes. A horse is a noble creature, and seeing them trussed up and put to the ground does not sit well with people. Yes, I understand the ethos behind it but that doesn't mean that I have to like it.

Just because it is *Parelli* it suddenly becomes acceptable to use ropes to hoist a horse's body around, and therein lies the problem. Full explanations are not given because *if you want to know, buy the DVD/book/etc* and so the accusations, confusion and hatred continues.
 
OK watched the vid posted - wow, great, 20 secs if that of a horse throwing his head up and down for session 1, not what I was expecting. Love the fact it says *passive*, ha ha ha, whether you agree with Parelli or not, the first night's work was not passive.

I hate the fact that in the footage of session 2 Catwalk's eyes look very empty - maybe he always looks like that, but it made me sad.
 
Pony Dentist: "Totally accepted that Pat should have explained the rationale behind everything he did that night. Perhaps he's accepted that and perhaps if the video is made availabel......it will be narrated and not edited to reflect on that mistake."

Guess that's not how Parelli rolls, huh.

What was the euphemism you used for the gumline (comanche twitch)? Calmer? Well that's about as much baloney as the use of the word "natural".

Quite frankly, I don't have a big problem with a truly dangerous horse being laid down. That, however, would be the absolute last resort. I would think that someone who purports himself to be such a great horseman would have quickly assessed that a 2 hour demonstration was not going to be the answer for this horse. Parelli should have admitted that and could have, I'm quite sure, worked his "magic" on this horse over the course of several days - - which is what anyone with a bit of horse knowledge and compassion would have done. What he should NOT have done was use these techniques in an effort to force the horse solely for the purpose of winning. Yes, Parelli won, the horse lost in session 1.

That the horse in session 2/3 allowed the bridle to be put on is great; but it could have been accomplished in something at least vaguely resembling what Parelli claims to want to accomplish.

I also purchased an impossible to bridle mare. It took me 2 weeks of slow and gentle work to get her to allow bridling with no fight whatsoever. And believe me, I'm no horse trainer. It doesn't really take a genius or a guru to accomplish.

I've used a twitch on a few horses, but if I ever had it applied for more than about 10 minutes max, I'd hope someone would hit me with a 2 x 4. The times I've used a twitch were in emergency-type situations where we just had to get the job done. And afterwards, I made sure to work with the horse so that twitching was not necessary again. Once again, not in any way, shape, manner or form a horse trainer, just a horse owner and someone who is willing to take a little time and patience with animals.
 
ibot said:
i agree wheezy and did you see some of his body language hmmmmm :mad:
Click to expand...

I don't usually pass comment, because I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough to criticise or otherwise these techniques.
However, I will break my usual reticence to say that in the video provided I thought that Pat Parelli looked like an arrogant arse with little regard for the sensitivities of the horse he was 'working' with.
 
Wow - although the video is obviously heavily edited I still think it makes the whole lot look a shambles.

Just as one example - see 1 min 38 seconds. Since when did it become acceptable to run a thin rope through a horse's mouth? That is very aggressive.

Then what kind of person leaves a horse wandering around with a long loose rope hanging from its neck and the end trailing between its hind legs? 1 min 16+

And PonyDentist - so in your world its ok to make something think it is about to die just so you can get what you want? How would you like that done to you - or your wife? Children (if you have any). In my world that is abuse plain and simple.
 
In my understanding of horses they are prey animals.Immobilizing them on the ground must be their worst nightmare come true.I don't think it leads to trust just to a great sense of hopelessness.This licking and chewing.IMHO its not a sign that the horse is thinking things over.Its a self comforting gesture like sucking your thumb (or a cigarette!!).I had a horse who had a mild (thank God) dose of colic.He did a lot of that licking and chewing while he was in pain.All of this could have been accomplished with patience and time not like that.It would have meant Robert not being able to jump the horse for a couple of weeks though.The police are my role models for getting horses to accept very frightening situations calmly.They take a long time doing this.
 
LucyPriory said:
Wow - although the video is obviously heavily edited I still think it makes the whole lot look a shambles.

Just as one example - see 1 min 38 seconds. Since when did it become acceptable to run a thin rope through a horse's mouth? That is very aggressive.

Then what kind of person leaves a horse wandering around with a long loose rope hanging from its neck and the end trailing between its hind legs? 1 min 16+

And PonyDentist - so in your world its ok to make something think it is about to die just so you can get what you want? How would you like that done to you - or your wife? Children (if you have any). In my world that is abuse plain and simple.
Click to expand...

Ok, I haven't seen this footage - please can you re-link it!
 
He looks like such a sweet, decent little horse. He doesn't deserve to be forced like this :( Its all very well showing him accepting the bridle with a thin bit of rope in his mouth (used as the lip twitch I guess) but I wonder what he will be like down the line when they try to handle him with no twitch - or how easily they are going to keep getting the twitch on in future :(
 
Weezy said:
Ok, I haven't seen this footage - please can you re-link it!
Click to expand...

Weezy - it's in the original link but I hadn't spotted it first time around. When he's "sharing lunch" the horse has a knot of rope around his neck and a longer rope trailing between his legs. Then in "session 3" when the groom is pulling the headpiece over the horse's ears and back, there's no bit on the bridle, just a thin piece of rope (presumably so the bit isn't pulling on his mouth..?).

To me, it seems very odd (regardless of what's been posted on here) that they only show a short piece of footage from the Friday of PP rubbing the horse's head and then they're not in the main arena for the remainder. In the Saturday footage, Catwalk looks very tired and / or broken in spirit. I've not seen a competition horse look like that unless exhausted, of course I don't know the horse so maybe it's his usual demeanour.

Also, it annoyed me how PP made it look like the horse wanted to be with him in session 2, but he's actually standing on the rope so the horse can't walk away!
 
around 1 minute in, its kind of funny when PP tries to 'pose' for th cameras with the horse.

Weezy - when hes sharing lunch, the rope is between the horses back legs.

Shame to see the rope still in while robert is taking the bridle on/off.

Also PP and its followers freak me out. Simply saying things like

"Maybe Pats biggest mistake was asuming that the audience understood more than they did about horses." (ponydentist)

its just awfully rude and patronising, doncha think?

I kind of feel its fake. Anyone can use force to make a horse submit, and i fail to see how Parelli is any different.
 
I think now the fuse has been lit on the Parelli Universe.....

More and more people will sit up and take notice of 'things not quite right'....and it can't be too long before the relevant authorities take notice, and the 'demonstrations' begin to eventually fizzle out....won't look good for these big shows if people don't want to go to see them....
 
from what I have read here and on horsegossip and the awful video I saw on youtube with one eyed horse being hit with rope to train him/her, its barbaric treatment, how can AHY horse lover JUSTIFY that kind of 'treatment'

hobbling a horse and restraining him, its pure domination and aggression - how they call it 'passive' beats me, if I was a fan and follower that alone would be enough to change my mind, why are so many followers on their facebook page sticking up for this awful treatment - brainwashed???
 
Well well well, I've just watched the video. There "we have nothing to worry about" comment seems a whole lot like bullsh*t now, doesn't it? They are afraid to show more than 12 seconds of the 3 hour "display" from Friday night.

I wonder what the Parellists defense is this time?

Somebody must have posted their own footage from Friday on YouTube. I highly suspect it has been removed.
 
I wonder also with the lack of face expresser from the horse that he's switch off from it all?? Like well I'll might of well give in otherwise my leg going to be tied up again equal pain??? Poor boy indeed!!

How can people say it's not abuse???? They need their eye's testd!!! Useing rope's to give the horse no other choice to get a horse to give to you happed year's ago and that's where it should stay!!!
 
I really hope that happens Dragonslayer but I have my doubts. Sadly the gruesome twosome have so many brainwashed followers it will always be a money spinner for big events. As I've said before it's the horses I really feel for :-(

But at least there is a bit of a backlash in the states, check out fugly horse of the day's site (will need to search for the Parelli posts) - Cathy is very anti the Parellis and so are a most of her followers for similar reasons stated on here. A start I guess!
 
Apologies if I'm repeating what anyone's already said here. I've been following this thread with great interest and trying to stay open minded, I didn't see the demo so can only rely on what people on here say. I have studied horse psychology in a lot of detail and yes the method Pat Parelli used does sound to be a from of flooding/learned helplessness. Basically by tying up the horse's leg he removed it's ability to flee, and once horses loose this ability (as someone else said (bear in mind horses are prey animals and rely on flight as a means of survival)), they basically give up fighting and think they are going to die.

It is a very extreme method that if pushed through (as this sounds like it was), will either work and the horse will appear cured (note the use of the word 'appear'), or will fail dramatically, making the horse far worse than it ever was originally and thus far harder to ever cure (as can happen when inexperienced people try to use such extreme techniques without really knowing what they are doing/when to ease off/reward etc).

I don't agree with flooding, would never use it and would never wish to see it used, I accept that some people do use it and use it successfully but this does not mean I consider it acceptable, it is a very machavellian way of thinking in my oppinion. Patience and passive persistence (oh the irony!) I believe are far better methods. Like many people on here have said if you just take your time, even if it means weeks of steady calm work with a horse so long as you do it correctly this is a far better way of gaining the horses long term trust and overcoming it's problems than just blatently forcing them to give in via an uncomfortable situation/battle of wills.

I can't remember the exact details but I remember being shocked at college when learning of a method (Andrew Maclean, an Australia told us about it if anyone has anymore info?)where horses that had a phobia were put into a closed stall (except a space for them to put their head out in order to breathe/see etc), that was then filled with grain right up to the horses head, so that the horse literaly couldn't move at all (thus flight response removed). Then it was subjected to whatever it was scared off (eg. clipping) and because it couldn't get away it had to learn to accept it. Probably haven't explained that very well but this Parelli demonstration reminds me alot of that.
 
OK people of the horse and hound forum I have not been on here in a couple of years I don't think and I didn't even remember I was part of this forum woops.

Well I have to say that I myself do Parelli with my horses. I also have to say I have not seen the video footage and wasn't there myself and am not here to defend the methods of Parelli because these are not normal methods of Parelli natural horsemanship. First of all I would like to say that natural horsemanship of any kind does not mean it's gentle natural does not equal gentle. Horses are not gentle with each other but they are natural to each other. I would also like to ask yourself to rethink your meaning of cruelty to horses. Alot of people don't find the likes of rolkur, crank nosebands, tie downs, etc. to be cruelty and it goes on without an uproar. Alot of people all over the world use ideas such as hobbling, and tying up of legs on horses but they are not as well publicised and not seen. These things are not cruelty to twitch a horse while it is being shod is not considered cruelty so why should it be considered cruel to twitch a horse for the purpose Pat did? Again I am not defending Pat but am asking you to think about what you yourself consider cruel. I for one think that Pat chose the wrong horse for the demonstration in the wrong place. If Catwalk needed help with bridling and Robert knew it was such a problem then the horse should not have been used in such an extreme place where results would have to be seen there and then because that is what an audience tends to demand. Catwalk appeared to be an extreme horse and extreme methods where put in place for an extreme horse.

Another thing I would like people to consider is the fact of how different stallions are handled by everyone than mares and geldings. They are kept in confinement away from most horses and will try to defend their territory when they feel threatened and they tend to feel threatened a lot of the time. All stallions can appear to be the same as all horses but they are dominant and extreme. Pat needed to be the dominant figure in the equation and it appears he had to be extreme in asserting his dominance.

Again if I appear to have been defending what Pat did I was not. I did not see it but I have heard what has happened from people who do not follow Parelli and people who do follow Parelli so I have heard both sides of the story and both sides seem to say nearly the same things just have different opinions on why it happened and what the effects where on what happened. If you read this I hope you do not put it off as some Parelli Cult person just defending what they do I feel no need to defend Pat and Linda because I am not them or their friends. I hope you consider what I have asked you to consider and you may or may not see things in a different light or you may still keep your opinion that is up to you.

Shauna
 
Alot of people don't find the likes of rolkur, crank nosebands, tie downs, etc. to be cruelty and it goes on without an uproar.
Click to expand...

I'm trying not commenting on the subject at hand anymore, as I'm just not interested anymore tbh. But. The above things quoted DO cause uproar within the industry, Rollkur and tie downs especially! Rollkur has specific rulings on it now from all the bad press it got.

No one is slating these methods that were done as such, BUT, are debating the fact that was was carried out goes against EVERYTHING he stands for on this particular issue [Re, go back to his own quote, which you probably know anyway] and the fact of labelling it a special 'way' which is passive and classing it under 'natural' horsemanship.

If you want to advocate and use hobbling/twitching/tying etc, go ahead, but NOT under a 'passive' name tag in the public eye!

There lies the main issue people are getting trying to get their heads around to 'understand' what they're not understanding aboutit, apparantly.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top