Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

I have read this entire thread with interest and joined the forum so I could comment. A couple of posters have remarked upon the cultural differences between horsemanship in the US and the UK, and how Parelli and NH techniques have been put forward as a way to counter the "wild west" tactics often used here.

That is true to a certain extent. However, I am a product of the eastern United States where for many generations we have handled horses quite differently. As a New Englander, my background is in gentling rather than breaking horses. We tend to do things like handle foals from birth, do a great deal of groundwork and patient handling, and we don't tend to ride our horses before they are 3 or 4 years old (my preference is 4).

As such, I was truly mystified when this whole concept of "natural horsemanship" became popular because much of it sounded like the basic common-sense techniques I and my associates have always used. Slick packaging and marketing has given it a glossy veneer and allowed some people to make a lot of money selling something that they certainly did not invent.

To that end, I think my eastern US background is more akin to that of the UK and I share the general disgust with this whole incident. As so many have said, if the concern was truly for the horse, this "training" would not have taken place in a public arena.
 
savvylover112 said:
I don't think stallions should be treated in a different way but the way they are treated in this day and age by being separated and kept away from other horses is not natural to them and has changed the way they behave towards any horse or human. We do not know if Catwalk has been treated in this way but it is the way *most* stallions are treated today.


Shauna
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What on earth gives you the idea that 'most' stallions are kept as you describe?

Most of the stallions I know these days are kept on busy competition yards with all the other horses. They are worked every day with the other horses, hack out with other horses, travel to shows on lorries with other horses, are stabled in temporary stables with loads of other horses etc etc.

Apart from some sensible precautions around mares all the ones I know are treated pretty much the same as any other horse and are not handled or treated any differently.
 
Sorry, I don't think it works, so I'll c&p them here (hope thats legal!).
Barbara Vasquez
Please, please, please have the entire 3 days on a Savvy club DVD or even on a separate DVD set. I, for one, would make sure I purchased it just so I would have it to show to those critics and skeptics when they start complaining about how Pat did this or that. I was NOT there in the UK but years ago, I WAS one of those critics and skeptics about ... See morethe Parelli method because I didn't know the whole situation and had watched only a snippet of a show of Pat working with (what I NOW know to be an Extreme Right Brained horse), teaching it the YoYo game. I have since "seen the light" (in 2004) and become a true follower of Parelli Natural Horsemanship. There is NOTHING more beautiful than watching Pat with Casper and Magic and Linda with Remmer. The love, language and leadership shown between human and horse is phenomenal. How anyone could ever say that Pat "tortured" ANY horse is beyond comprehension. If he truly "tortured" that horse (or any horse for that matter), do you REALLY think that the HSUS would have partnered up with him? You know, there are those out there that no matter how much you PROVE to them that the Parelli method works, they will still complain and spread lies. Why?? Who knows? Where there is good, there is always evil. Some people are just plain evil. Not only the way they spread lies (about something they don't understand and don't want to understand) but in every facet of their lives. I pray that God will help them "see the light" and until that happens, we Parellians just need to continue on Parellianing (new word folks) and lead by our examples. "A picture's worth a thousand words". Let's help Pat and Linda by keeping on, keeping on and loving our horses the way God intended for us to love 'em. They will appreciate it and we will have happy hearts. Be Safe, Be Smart, Be Savvy my friends and go hug your horse. :-)

And

Bill Standish
As I read over the posts here I want to put things in even a bigger context. As wonderful and useful as PNH is for horses and their owners in regards to relationship, natural horsemanship is not all about the Parellis, though they are very important. There is a more important relationship that needs to be brought into focus in order to assist us ... See morein dealing with the conflict that has been evident in this thread. One person mentioned the presence of evil in the world as opposed to good; truth be told, everyone, even 'good' people, have a propensity to evil because we all have a sin nature deep within us.
The Bible teaches us that 'the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked! Who can know it?...' Jeremiah 17:9 The Lord Jesus Christ, who created humans and horses, and every other creature, has always been aware of the relational issues between humans, since they stem from the breakdown of our relationship with Him when sin entered the world. Yet, He was and is prepared with a resolution...HIMSELF. Natural horsemanship reveals the importance of respect in the restoring the relationship between humans and horses; this is a reflection on the need for restoration humans need to have with our Creator. Man's independance from God, due to relational breakdown needs correction; God does not need to be restored to us since He has not sinned, and indeed cannot sin. We need to be restored to Him so that we can have a trust relationship with Him. Horses who cannot trust their owner will remain afraid and not free to enjoy a relationship with him/her. Similarily, we humans, when not restored to Christ, cannot enjoy a relationship with God, and we will not enjoy true freedom of grace in interpersonal relationships with other humans. When we have a trust relationship with Jesus, conflict will not disappear, but...BUT...we can be free to, as God's Word teaches, 'Be anxious for nothing, but by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your request be made known unto God; and the peace of God, that surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." Philippians 4:9 Christ's relationship with individual members of humankind is the ultimate context. PNH has a place in the training of human hearts and horses, but lets not make it the ultimate thing in life. One day horsemanship may cease to exist, but the crucial question is "What will we do with Jesus Christ?", the One who created mankind and horses. Jesus Christ exists eternally, before He made the world, before He came as a babe almost 2,000 years ago and after He died on the cross...HE ROSE AGAIN! Indeed, be passionate about PNH, but lets not become hurtful; some may feel threatened by comments made...find your security in Christ, who knows fully the entire situation and cares for each one involved, loving us enough to yield to cruel injustice, lies, mockery, torture...giving Himself over to crucifixion on a cross, to raise Himself to life again...to offer the same to us...peace with God and the peace of God regardless of our earthly experiences. Now, this is the enlightenment we all need.

Gin and popcorn to all who've made it this far!
 
savvylover112 said:
Another thing I would like people to consider is the fact of how different stallions are handled by everyone than mares and geldings. They are kept in confinement away from most horses and will try to defend their territory when they feel threatened and they tend to feel threatened a lot of the time. All stallions can appear to be the same as all horses but they are dominant and extreme. Pat needed to be the dominant figure in the equation and it appears he had to be extreme in asserting his dominance.
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What a ridiculously sweeping statement - and it shows how little you know about how MANY people - including me - handle their stallions! My stallions are stabled alongside geldings - they can all touch noses with their neighbours. They are turned out daily in fields fenced with just two strands of electric tape, which have a very narrow corridor between them and the next field. They are ridden daily - often hacked out or ridden in the manege with other horses - and we don't feel any need to 'dominate' them!

'asserting dominance' - in reality, that's bullying, and very few stallions take to it kindly! Sooner or later they will show you that you CAN'T 'dominate' them - but you CAN control them easily with TACT - and good horsemanship!!
 
Binky01 said:
EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli
Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's?
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship.
When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him…. In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it.
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And this shows a fair bit of ignorance on PP's part- AND an attempt to 'blame' horse owners for something that may not be their 'fault'. Aural plaque, for example, can make a horse's ears VERY sensitive (and painful!)

And many bridling problems are actually not ear problems - they are mouth problems - but they manifest when the headpiece is pulled up over the ears because that's when the bit - pulled higher in the mouth - causes the horse pain.

The first thing I'd do with a horse with bridling problems is to have its mouth checked out thoroughly - under sedation if necessary. And while he was sedated I'd be having a very good look into his ears. And then I'd be looking at the various parts of the bridling 'operation' - so I could form an opinion on which part upset him and why. THEN -and only then - could I decide onthe right approach to overcomehis fears,and it would probably involve modifying the bridling procedure to make it easier and more acceptable to him.

But it seems PP goes with the 'do what I say, NOT what I do' approach!
 
Re Misterjay's post and the religeous following...

I am just going to harp back to my last post (end of last page) because if Parelli people are taught that it is human supremacy to own an animal - how contradictory is that!

However, in all fairness, there is nothing wrong in being religeous (millions of people are!) and if they wish to bring their beliefs into animal ownership, I understand and surely this isn't restricted to Parelli followers.

But I still can't get over that quote! ......... hang on, I'll copy it again!

It is human supremacy over animals....its why we kep horses and other animals....it makes us feel better if we do
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Surely a full video will surface soon...?

Thank you (finally) for a full explanation of laying a horse down with hobbles PonyDentist. Is this not a similar idea to 'breaking' a horse by breaking its spirit like the old style cowboy techniques? If it's all about dominance, and getting a horse to submit then why not just beat it? If you use an orange stick I'm sure plenty will believe it's kind and in the best interest of the horse...

An odd one, but for me the analogy that the horse thinks it is going to die, and then learns to accept things reminds me an awful lot of that scene in Fight Club where he hold a gun to a guys head, makes him believe he is going to die, and then tells him to go out the next day and achieve his dreams of being a vet, or he will come back and kill him... Not the relationship I'd like with my horse but each to their own....
 
AllySmalice said:
Basically by tying up the horse's leg he removed it's ability to flee, and once horses loose this ability (as someone else said (bear in mind horses are prey animals and rely on flight as a means of survival)), they basically give up fighting and think they are going to die.

It is a very extreme method that if pushed through (as this sounds like it was), will either work and the horse will appear cured (note the use of the word 'appear'), or will fail dramatically, making the horse far worse than it ever was originally and thus far harder to ever cure (as can happen when inexperienced people try to use such extreme techniques without really knowing what they are doing/when to ease off/reward etc).

I don't agree with flooding, would never use it and would never wish to see it used, I accept that some people do use it and use it successfully but this does not mean I consider it acceptable, it is a very machavellian way of thinking in my oppinion. Patience and passive persistence (oh the irony!) I believe are far better methods. Like many people on here have said if you just take your time, even if it means weeks of steady calm work with a horse so long as you do it correctly this is a far better way of gaining the horses long term trust and overcoming it's problems than just blatently forcing them to give in via an uncomfortable situation/battle of wills.

I can't remember the exact details but I remember being shocked at college when learning of a method (Andrew Maclean, an Australia told us about it if anyone has anymore info?)where horses that had a phobia were put into a closed stall (except a space for them to put their head out in order to breathe/see etc), that was then filled with grain right up to the horses head, so that the horse literaly couldn't move at all (thus flight response removed). Then it was subjected to whatever it was scared off (eg. clipping) and because it couldn't get away it had to learn to accept it. Probably haven't explained that very well but this Parelli demonstration reminds me alot of that.
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Andrew Maclean also said he thought this was an excellent practice. :(

The rope over the horse's gum reportedly caused an injury bad enough for vets to say he couldn't be used the next day. Think about the space between your gum and lip - how many nerve endings are there. Imagine how much pain the horse was in when he was reacting fearfully: and imagine that going on for 3 hours.

If it were a twitch in the same way that a nose twitch is, surely there would be a video of the horse reacting in a sedated manner to the endorphins in the same manner a nose-twitched horse would? I'm no expert, but I think the gum twitch probably worked in the same way an ear twitch would - by causing the horse extreme pain, rather than sending him to sleep.

ETS oh, oh OH! have you seen the comment at the end of the video??? Keep it natural my arse!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Can i just ask what is with all the whips and ropes hanging about in these parelli video's. The ropes look to be everywhere under everyones feet. When my long lead rope is a bit long im always worried my mare is going to step on it and worry herself. Also just saw that linda parelli video, i'd love to know what that poor horse was thinking. Someone pulled on my mares lead rope like linda did in the video and she tried to bite the woman (she was a baby at the time). Why can't they just stick to normal methods with no wacking the horse in the chest with some rope. I don't have much horse experience, only owned one for 6 years now but i don't understand why you would do this when things can be achieved by other methods. I know i certainly wouldn't be happy if someone was dragging me about my the head and hitting my chest with a rope for no apparent reason.
 
shysmum said:
don't you think it is time both Parelli and Whittaker were alerted to this thread ? Anybody ???? If not, I'll happily do it. sm x
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Will RW care? Anyone who could pack a highly strung stallion off to be used like that - and stand around and watch it - isn't a horseman in MY book! And if it's true that he'd only had him a matter of weeks, that makes it FAR worse. The poor chap had been given NO chance - hours of concentrated flooding might have turned him into almost a 'dope on a rope' by Saturday,but stallions have a way of remembering abuse - and repaying it in spades!
 
Back in the day I went to one of these clinics at the Yorkshire Riding Centre, you know you see its the latest thing so you are curious. It was a few days but after day one we had had enough, submission, throwing ropes around making the horses shy, wasnt for me I am afraid.

Funny also I saw a top BHS instructor take a whip to a horse when she thought nobody was looking, just because these people have a status does not make the things they do correct.
 
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OMG, you guys are chatty. I just got home and checked in, and whew that was alot to read. Where to start. lemme get my notes.
So many I couldn't "quote" anyone.

First, I know of no single horse, that has been made head shy with Parelli techniques as a cause. doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I have yet to hear people talk about it or ask for help as a result of the program. lots for helping a horse they aquired that way.

I will defend the "program" but not the "man". I am not Pat or Linda's keeper nor protector. But I whole heartedly believe in the program, that they created and teach with phenominal success. What you may have seen/not seen, understood/misunderstood, is NOT a reflection of the program. be it right or wrong, it is a technique that few in the program could handle doing as it is more advanced than we are, and we, parelli students, know we are not qualified to duplicate, replicate nor EXPLAIN it, as we either don't understand ourselves, understand but cannot explain in a way that someone else would understand, or for personal reasons feel it is not our issue to explain. you want an explaination from a student, then ask them about something THEY themselves do. While we ALL want an explanation from pat, we likely will NOT get it. Not here, not on the savvy forum, and not in person. there is just as big an uproar and differing views within our own communtiy as there is outside it. those that understand what he did the best are higher up in the program, and the higher you go, the fewer the numbers. despite what you may think, the program devolps skills of increasing difficulty, and like with any sport, there are fewer at the top than the bottom.

I don't feel ripped off, or dooped by these people, and not because I am brainwashed by a cult. because I got every pennies worth out of it, that I paid for and then some. AND you should know, that we, the students, have pushed and pushed for more out of these people. "give us more" like featherless chicks in a nest, reaching into the bowls of our parents for the food and nourishment that we know they can provide. we have been demanding beyond all belief, and they have done everything they can to feed our hunger. I can't for a moment imagine what it must be like to live thier lives. to be damed if you do, and damed if you don't. they could never in a million years make EVERYONE happy at the same time. NEVER. they are in simple terms, just meeting the demands of THIER consumers.

body language and "common sense" cannot be BOUGHT but it can be TAUGHT.

I cannot say "no one" in this sentance for I do not know everyone on the planet. but no one forced anyone to go to see him. you cannot force this program or beliefs on someone. you cannot force people to buy your products. Pat and Linda are not holding a gun to anyone's head. and neither is any student (I feel confident that there are no savvy students holding guns to peoples heads, carrot sticks maybe, but if needed you should be able to outrun a carrot stick;)) you can walk away, but likely PRIDE is what keeps both sides with toes glued to the front line. I know many of you firmly believe that we have been dooped into joining, and brain washed into staying. but please, seriously? do you think we are ALL that stupid?:rolleyes: I will againd admit, yes there are some that make it appear that way, but there are many just like them in the dressage world, jumper world, etc. that is NOT exclusive to parelli. the reason they have so many stuedents, is because they have an incredibly great product and people like them. pretty simple really. he is not THAT good of a snake charmer.

I think I covered my notes

oh wait

munchkin:( please be more open minded to the fact that we are all individuals, and mostly intelligent ones too. while like minded, we are not single minded. And just because ONE person gets defensive (you feel) doesn't mean that we cannot all be trusted or are coming in, charming the pants off of you, and then devilishly awaiting for the pounce point.

this is a heated subject based on a unique incident. (unfortunately those are starting to add up) again, this is not the sum of the whole, and we the students, be us followers or dabblers, are not responsible for defending, or explaing the actions of Pat or Linda.

for those of you who have skipped thru the thread, I politely ask you to read all of my posts, in case you missed them, if only to know that not ALL parelli students are the same, and more are like me, than are like you invision us all to be. I have been on both sides of the fence. I have sat in the very place you are sitting now. can't get into story, sorry, honestly wish I could. I am not the only one turning down becoming a parelli professional bases soley on a lack of good judgement on the part of the world view of the parelli
organization. as it will directly effect us if we were to be a franshised member.
you are not alone in questioning him and what he did, we are too. our reasons vary as well as yours. we too hope for an explanation.

last note, thank you again to those of you who have expressed enjoyment of my involvement, my stories or what ever it may be. i cried writing the "dream" sequence too.:rolleyes: but I am a sap.

I humbly invite you to my first thread

"ask a parelli student"

:cool:
 
tongue~n~cheek said:
munchkin:( please be more open minded to the fact that we are all individuals, and mostly intelligent ones too. while like minded, we are not single minded. And just because ONE person gets defensive (you feel) doesn't mean that we cannot all be trusted or are coming in, charming the pants off of you, and then devilishly awaiting for the pounce point.
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First of all, thank you for singling me out from the 400 people with the exact same opinion, I feel honoured :rolleyes:

I was open minded, I went, I saw, I listened, I met many, many followers of Parelli. I've met many more over the years. I can honestly say that these people had little respect for the techniques of other horse people and were incredibly patronising toward anyone who didn't see what they thought they saw in Parelli's techniques. Asking questions, or challenging anything that Pat, Linda or the programme taught or encouraged, was simply met with defensiveness. "We do not need to explain to the likes of you, your poor horses, you will never understand, we will pray for you" yada yada.

My opinions have not been formed by reading a few threads on HHO, they have been formed over many years of meeting Parelli people and coming up against this attitude.

For what it's worth I believe many of Parelli's methods are worthy of use, but I also doubt they were created by him - they've simply been branded by him.

You appear to be the exception to the rule, Tongue n Cheek, and unfortunately until I meet more people like yourself, my opinion will remain as stated.
 
intouch said:
So long as you watch this the whole way through!! 5 mins in the buck stopper compared to seriously hurting someone or ending up in the factory. No contest, in my view.
I can't see it as being worse than many of the other contraptions that are used daily in horses' mouths. (I know - no one on here has dreadful hands or uses evil bits...)
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horses often buck because they are in pain-have all these horses been worked up to check for that? how many times have we heard on this forum alone of horses with behavioural problems actually having a medical cause? and agree re the demo setting, its no place to sort out a problem-none of these people have the horse's dignity in mind, just $$$$$$$
 
We hear so much about the cruelty at Appleby horse fair.
The R.S.P.C.A. World horse welfare etc should attend these shows and put an end to thecruel pain and suffering these animals are put through.
 
tongue~n~cheek said:
I will defend the "program" but not the "man". I am not Pat or Linda's keeper nor protector. But I whole heartedly believe in the program, that they created and teach with phenominal success. What you may have seen/not seen, understood/misunderstood, is NOT a reflection of the program. be it right or wrong, it is a technique that few in the program could handle doing as it is more advanced than we are, and we, parelli students, know we are not qualified to duplicate, replicate nor EXPLAIN it, as we either don't understand ourselves, understand but cannot explain in a way that someone else would understand, or for personal reasons feel it is not our issue to explain. you want an explaination from a student, then ask them about something THEY themselves do. While we ALL want an explanation from pat, we likely will NOT get it. Not here, not on the savvy forum, and not in person. there is just as big an uproar and differing views within our own communtiy as there is outside it. those that understand what he did the best are higher up in the program, and the higher you go, the fewer the numbers. despite what you may think, the program devolps skills of increasing difficulty, and like with any sport, there are fewer at the top than the bottom.
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TnC, it's been refreshing to read your posts but I do have to take issue on this 'statement above from you', sorry.

You don't have to be advanced to know that 'the end result justifies the means' is not applicable in this case because it was too sustained. That was a deplorable action from someone who should have known a great deal better and My original view of RW was not improved either; they are both a disgrace to the equestrian world.
 
CalllyH said:
Im skipping through some of the pages as its late and this thread is huge but just watched this http://www.youtube.com/user/ParelliTube#p/u/0/8j25pS6ixWk of catwalk

look how much force Pat is using on him - the horses spirit has just dissapeared and look at the bit when he nearly kicks him in the head

To me these too are animal abusers making a fast buck - can not bear it at all
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Just seen this. He obviously skips the bad stuff here.
 
Above all else, for the sake of Catwalk I really, really hope the reports of the injury caused by the gum twitch being so bad a vet refused to let him be used again on the Saturday are untrue, because if they are, well, there are no words for how angry that makes me. That PP, LP and RW, all respected in the horse world (by different people, although none of them by me), could do this for three hours and think its ok for the horse to walk away injured makes me sick. I don’t care what you think of Parelli or any other method, I do not care what anybody says about PP releasing the pressure throughout the show, for that to happen is totally, completely, utterly unacceptable on any level.

Does anybody know if these reports have been confirmed?
 
ponydentist said:
It is human supremacy over animals....its why we kep horses and other animals....it makes us feel better if we do.
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no, that's not why I keep them, it makes me sad that you think this and shows the problem and difference between Parelli and most of the rest of us.




ponydentist said:
My understanding of what one leg hobbling is about and where and how it should be applied...used..whatever you wish to call it...is that what tying one leg up on a horse does is that it puts him in a very vunerable situation / position.....posibly one of his worst case scenarios because he cannot run as he would like to if the need arose. whilst he is in that predicament he probably at some stage thinks hes going to die.....but if nice things happen to him whilst hes in that situation and his worse fears dont come true he can cope with and conforont thise fears in a much more confident way in future.
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would you use this method for other animals? surely if this was used for people it would be termed psychological torture?

it's *******s and it shows a complete lack of respect for the horse and its nature. wrong on so many levels, I hardly know where to start.
 
Godknows said:
The horse had full blinkers covering his eyes:eek::eek::eek: I'm sure?? No wonder it went backwards:confused:
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actually there is a girl on here with a horse called lacey who is a rearer who has flipped. I know that she has sent her to someone using MR techniques and they are using a very large set of blinkers... the theory being if they can't see above them they won't go up.

Re I think callyh's comment of PP kicking the horse I didn't really see it as that more him just lifting his head... without having to bend down and pick it up. So I didnt really see anything wrong with that... sure I have used my foot to lift sleepy pony's head up from the ground slightly!
 
My issue with many demos of this kind is that instant, miraculous results are expected by the audience, and that's not always possible with horses. Some things take time to sort out, you have to go for tiny, incremental improvements rather than magic cures. The format of these demos - not just Parelli, other horse whisperer type demos of all kinds - often seems geared towards the amazing magic cure rather than a more structured approach that people could actually take home and do themselves.

For example, with a headshy horse, you could set your first goal as being able to calmly stroke his head all over, and work up - not march straight in with the goal of getting a bridle on straight away. For a horse scared of loading your first step might be just calmly walking through the trailer - not loading straight in and driving off the first time you try.
 
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