Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

Is the supposed email from Lee Hackett (Senior Executive BHS, Welfare), posted elsewhere, a forgery then?? If they are not currently investigating, as the email implied they were doing -- or, indeed, if the email was a forgery -- surely they would have issued a statement to that effect already?
 
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Yes, Golfgirl, if you take the time to read this thread you will find a quoted email from Lee Hackett that supports what Amymay has said.
I'll just state it (again!), I live and breathe what many consider to be natural horsemanship, and I am sorely disappointed to see the way Pat P dealt with Catwalk. That doesn't make me anti Parelli or anti NH.
 
Tinypony said:
Yes, Golfgirl, if you take the time to read this thread you will find a quoted email from Lee Hackett that supports what Amymay has said
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Hello TP. If you take the time to read the thread yourself, you will see that I have been involved in it from the early days :)
 
fburton said:
Golf Girl, do you think the Lee Hackett email is fake?
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I'm not implying that it's fake. It's an email that was written some time ago. Other events have overtaken it and as such, I don't think it stands as credible evidence that, at this point in time, there is an ongoing investigation into the Catwalk incident by the BHS.
 
I have now seen three videos of PP with Catwalk. Second video shows him gently handling the stallion's head, and then bridling him. Third shows an apparently relaxed and curious horse standing over a seated PP, sharing the man's sandwiches. Would a psychologically traumatised horse really come so close so soon to his supposed abuser? And how come no-one else has mentioned these other videos. I spoke to the Welfare Department of the BHS today and was told that they are not aware of any investigation being planned against PP.
 
Caledonia said:
Curls - read the thread and look at the videos contained in it. I think you'll find most of your questions answered therein.
Just as an aside though - there's nothing NATURAL about using gum-lines, twitches or hobbles on a horse, it is force, pure and simple.
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Not that I'm advocating any of the above, but what exactly is natural about saddles, bridles, lunge lines etc.?
 
Yes, a traumatised horse would be quite likely to come that close, so soon, to it's abuser.

I can't quite believe that some are so carefully missing the points that so many are trying to make (quite politely in many cases).

1. Parelli seems to be acting against his own previously stated principles in the way he dealt with Catwalk. Refer to the quote I posted earlier.

2. For many, the end doesn't justify the means. It might be OK to some people, but to many of us the way that Catwalk was treated in his first "training" sessions is not justified by any number of videos showing him submitting to being bridled now. I am sure that everyone here would agree that horses live in the moment. They can't think "In a couple of hours this will all be over". When a horse loses the use of it's legs, and has a painful device under it's top lip what exactly do we think that horse is experiencing at that time? It is afraid and probably on an instinctive level it thinks it is going to die. So, for all of the time we see Catwalk struggling in the ropes, throwing himself backwards, attempting to escape from the arena, he was very afraid. When you consider the alternatives, as demonstrated by countless other experienced and kind trainers, how can that be justified?

If the BHS is no longer going to investigate the treatment of this horse, in spite of the fact that they said they would and that video evidence of the entire incident is available, then I think that is a real shame. In light of the controversy it has caused that would at least be one way to set records straight. I can't help but wonder, as others have done before me, what the reaction would have been if a couple of travellers had been video'd doing this to a horse at Appleby Fair.

What is really telling to me is the number of Pat Parelli's own current students who have admitted that they are shocked by this incident, and have lost faith in him as a result. Those who insist on joining this forum just to enter into battle are doing nothing to improve perceptions of Parelli NH, quite the reverse. There is another thread here started by Tongue In Cheek that could teach them a thing or two about promoting the system that they love.

I really think that is the last I can be bothered to post on this topic.
 
Curls said:
I have now seen three videos of PP with Catwalk. Second video shows him gently handling the stallion's head, and then bridling him. Third shows an apparently relaxed and curious horse standing over a seated PP, sharing the man's sandwiches. Would a psychologically traumatised horse really come so close so soon to his supposed abuser? And how come no-one else has mentioned these other videos.
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So, Curls, are you saying you find nothing wrong with the way the horse was forced into a gumline, and had his leg tied up, and was put under pressure for over two hours?
If you are, then I personally have little or no respect for any opinions you may put forward, because to my mind, that is condoning abusive treatment to a horse.
 
Tinypony said:
What is really telling to me is the number of Pat Parelli's own current students who have admitted that they are shocked by this incident, and have lost faith in him as a result. Those who insist on joining this forum just to enter into battle are doing nothing to improve perceptions of Parelli NH, quite the reverse. There is another thread here started by Tongue In Cheek that could teach them a thing or two about promoting the system that they love.

I really think that is the last I can be bothered to post on this topic.
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How very, very judgemental of you! I am one of 'Pat Parelli's current students' and whilst the incident may have made me stop and think and question what was done on the night and why, I joined this forum because I object to the tactics adopted by a certain (very) vocal minority here and elsewhere who have used this recent 'incident' as fuel for their anti-Parelli fire.

People should stick to the proven facts, and stop trying to stir things up with exaggerations, fabrications and rumour-mongering.
 
I've tried to be the voice of reason on this forum many times when Parelli is discussed Golf Girl. I've typed endless long posts seeking to explain the why behind Parelli "games", patterns and what people call tricks. Even though I'm no longer a Parelli student (I left the programme while working on old Level 2 ridden and Level 3 groundwork), it depressed me to read people ridiculing it. It's got to the point sometimes when they've turned on me, thinking I'm a "Parelli fanatic", when I'm afraid I'm definitely not. If I see the value in something I will say so though, and I do see the value in SOME of what Parelli teaches. However, I had to leave, because I realised that when I watched Pat and some of his instructors working, they were not doing anything that I aspired to.
If you think your style of aggressive posting will do more to benefit Parelli, carry on. I am sure people will see you as a great ambassador for Parelli Natural Horse.Man.Ship.
(In other words, go Golf Girl, you've just alienated a long-time H+H member who regularly said supportive things about Parelli. Let's see how many more members you can polarise.)
 
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I think the end does not justify the means in this case. regardless of who did it or why,
Just my humble opinion.
I also feel horsemanship pigeonholed into a 'named method' is always going to be restricted and encourage narrow-mindedness when dealing with different horses and scenarios.
Open minded training based on respect for the animal, horsemanship (in the old sense of the word), knowledge, training and experience, combined with a willingness to learn from other people is the only way forward.
A bit of humility wouldn't hurt IMHO.
 
Golf Girl said:
I am one of 'Pat Parelli's current students' and whilst the incident may have made me stop and think and question what was done on the night and why, I joined this forum because I object to the tactics adopted by a certain (very) vocal minority here and elsewhere who have used this recent 'incident' as fuel for their anti-Parelli fire.
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Did the incident make you question what was done? Was your initial reaction one of shock, but did you then go on to rationalize that Pat Parelli surely must have known what he was doing and therefore his treatment of Catwalk was entirely justifiable? Or do you think what he did was actually a mistake?

FWIW, I don't believe that Catwalk was abused in any legally enforceable sense - so it wouldn't surprise me if the BHS concludes there is no case to be answered. I do, however, feel sorry for the horse who had to endure the entirely unnecessary upset and, imo, poor handling on the Friday night. I would like to see the evidence that a conventional desensitization programme had been attempted previously by someone who really knew what they were doing (although one would have thought that Pat would have mentioned this in his initial commentary if it had already been tried). I would really like to know what you and Pat think of Michael Peace's approach to the headshy horse as shown in the video clip. Good horsemanship, rubbish, or nothing special?

You know, it's not so much the way the horse was mishandled that bothers me (although of course it does) as much as the way the Parelli machine deals with incidents like these and the raising of concerns in general. The overwhelming impression is that they believe they can do no wrong, and that Pat et al. are so far above the rest of us mere mortals that we are simply unable to comprehend what he does (i.e. we can't trust the evidence our own eyes) - either you "believe in Parelli" or your knowledge and experience count for nothing. This self-assurance borders on arrogance because it admits no questioning. Where is the open-mindedness? As mik said, a little humility wouldn't hurt.

Why does this matter? Because it's a major obstacle to PNH improving. I really want to see Parelli improve, to extend into areas previously shunned, to be less dogmatic about certain approaches. The system has much to commend it in terms of connecting with members and the quality of its teaching materials. I know it has helped a lot of people; I would like it to help horses more, much more. But how can it do that effectively if it is convinced of its own infallibility to the degree it appears to be?!
 
Quote Tinypony.....

2. For many, the end doesn't justify the means. It might be OK to some people, but to many of us the way that Catwalk was treated in his first "training" sessions is not justified by any number of videos showing him submitting to being bridled now. I am sure that everyone here would agree that horses live in the moment. They can't think "In a couple of hours this will all be over". When a horse loses the use of it's legs, and has a painful device under it's top lip what exactly do we think that horse is experiencing at that time? It is afraid and probably on an instinctive level it thinks it is going to die. So, for all of the time we see Catwalk struggling in the ropes, throwing himself backwards, attempting to escape from the arena, he was very afraid. When you consider the alternatives, as demonstrated by countless other experienced and kind trainers, how can that be justified?

Apart from the gumline, I recall saying pretty much the same to you about your latest favourite trainer and the actions he took at one of his clinics which involved roping a frightened ponys leg, and you banned me from your forum!!! I can't quite believe you've got the nerve!!
 
That's not why you were banned Leogeorge, and you know it. You have been repeatedly banned from several forums, under different names, and by different moderators for your rude and nasty postings, yet for some reason you keep going back and doing it again. The instance you are talking about didn't happen on my forum, it happened on a forum where I was a moderator. In fact, if I remember correctly that may have been the occasion when the forum owner banned you rather than me. Hard to remember as I think you got banned from that particular place 3 times in total?
The pony you are talking about didn't throw itself about, struggle, throw itself backwards... and if it had even started to react like that the rope would have been dropped. Oh, what's the point? I'm not going to get into any pointless discussions with you here, I might even employ the ignore button...
Just to keep track, so far you've been banned once from my forum because we don't like you based on our previous experiences, and once because you decided to join under yet another name to have a nasty dig at one of our members. Personally I can't see why any adult would persistently join discussion groups where they aren't welcome under different names, but it takes all sorts I suppose.
(Talk about off topic...
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leogeorge said:
Quote Tinypony.....

2. For many, the end doesn't justify the means. It might be OK to some people, but to many of us the way that Catwalk was treated in his first "training" sessions is not justified by any number of videos showing him submitting to being bridled now. I am sure that everyone here would agree that horses live in the moment. They can't think "In a couple of hours this will all be over". When a horse loses the use of it's legs, and has a painful device under it's top lip what exactly do we think that horse is experiencing at that time? It is afraid and probably on an instinctive level it thinks it is going to die. So, for all of the time we see Catwalk struggling in the ropes, throwing himself backwards, attempting to escape from the arena, he was very afraid. When you consider the alternatives, as demonstrated by countless other experienced and kind trainers, how can that be justified?

Apart from the gumline, I recall saying pretty much the same to you about your latest favourite trainer and the actions he took at one of his clinics which involved roping a frightened ponys leg, and you banned me from your forum!!! I can't quite believe you've got the nerve!!
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That's quite unpleasant, personal and unnecessary of you:(
 
p.s. I don't join forums in disguise, I have different names sometimes, normally dependent on the mood I'm in when I join, but it's normally pretty easy to work out who I am. For instance my name here is the name of my pony. I post on other forums as kas, and I think I've also been Crystal Fire, again the name of my horse. So no secret squirrel here.
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Don't worry Martlin, she makes a habit of it. I won't be engaging in any tit for tat with her, I'm really not interested, just a bit puzzled about why she picks on me, out of all the people who have banned her over the years. Probably because I don't hide my identity.
Martlin, we crossed. I was refering to Leogeorge's habit of joining forums under different identities.
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Golf Girl said:
because I object to the tactics adopted by a certain (very) vocal minority here and elsewhere who have used this recent 'incident' as fuel for their anti-Parelli fire.
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And why do you think there IS anti-Parelli fire!! I rarely waste time rubbishing Parelli - those who've seen enough agree with me anyway - and the Parelli 'disciples' work largely on blind faith. Most of the time I actually couldn't give a monkey's about Parelli - but it habitually turns up in my life enough to get me infuriated all over again!

On Tuesday I sent a very capable horse transporter to pick up a 4 year old mare from a livery yard - she was considered a bit 'difficult' and was coming here to be backed. Transporter had hardly started 'asking' the mare to load when the yard nutters turned up en masse -to help! Owner (who is very quiet and polite) didn't like to tell them to pi** off - transporter wasn't in a position to! The mare was subjected to 6 hours of incompetent attempts to load her including two hours of being 'Parelli'd' by the yard's resident Parelli disciple! From all accounts she reared, she kicked, she barged, she took off - etc. etc. etc.

So I went up yesterday - 3 hour journey - to collect her - expecting some sort of ill-mannered monster! But she was a lovely, friendly little mare who was sporting a huge raw patch on her lower jaw (from pressure halter!! :mad:) - and several cuts and knocks. The yard nutters hung around and watched from a distance - somehow they must have got the message! It took 50 minutes to quietly persuade her that she wasn't going to be hurt - or forced - and that coming into the trailer was 'safe'! Not a rear - nor a kick - nor a barge occurred! She then travelled beautifully and unloaded calmly! And she's been a gem today - both in the stable and when turned out.

While we were loading her (I took my own assistant), one of the yard nutters referred to the mare as a 'stubborn bitch'. I was very restrained and didn't call YN a stupid, braindead bitch! Yard Manager couldn't wait to tell me that the mare was spoilt rotten, had charged through all her (electric) fences - and was a nutter in the stable. But - she informed me - she would be fine to break in because SHE had decided to saddle and bridle her and lunge her until she was 'knackered' the day after the loading debacle! :mad:

So - there are raving loonies from all schools of 'horsemanship' - the Parelli person who abused a nice, sensitive little mare was no worse than some of the others. But he was certainly no better! But then - as we saw with Catwalk - Prat Parelli doesn't practice what he preaches so HE's no better either! His work with Catwalk aimed to DOMINATE a sensitive horse who obviously had real fears about being bridled. Working quietly and patiently with him to get his confidence and resolve his issues would not have 'made' a demonstration - and would have taken too long!

Maybe Catwalk is accepting the bridle now - or is he just tolerating it? Does he now like and TRUST humans?? I wonder!
 
Haven't read all this thread, but in my long experience of working with stallions about no per cent of any 'school' of thought has the foggiest clue how to approach or handle them, and Parelli is no different.
Anyone who sets out to sort out a serious problem with a sensitive horse, especially an entire sensitive horse, in public, under lights, with an audience, for money wants shooting, really in my book, what ever 'theory' they espouse.
 
Tinypony...Not off topic at all. We are talking about leg roping and I feel that you are a little hypocritical in some of what you say, as are all the Monty followers who supported his use of the gumline at a demo not that long ago, who are now somehow "disgusted" (quite rightly as it goes) at PPs use of the same instrument of torture and are stating that force should never be used. They will also say that "it was different". My question is, is it? I don't think so. Using ropes and gumlines to force the issue, is what it is. Not nice in any situation....IMHO.
 
I'm a new Parelli fan and personally was shocked to hear of this treatment, but it doesn't change how I feel about Parelli because I know that I'm practising what is on the dvds and its working brilliantly on my two youngsters, and I know that what I am doing is not abusive to my horses.

I feel that Pat Parelli was pressurized to train this stallion in an allotted time which made him lose his patience. Everyone makes mistakes, his program does change horses and I feel that it's maybe unfair to make this much fuss when many people turn a blind eye to much worse abuse of horses everyday. Robert Whitaker hasn't stepped up and complained ...
 
Alfie&Milo said:
I'm a new Parelli fan and personally was shocked to hear of this treatment, but it doesn't change how I feel about Parelli because I know that I'm practising what is on the dvds and its working brilliantly on my two youngsters, and I know that what I am doing is not abusive to my horses.

I feel that Pat Parelli was pressurized to train this stallion in an allotted time which made him lose his patience. Everyone makes mistakes, his program does change horses and I feel that it's maybe unfair to make this much fuss when many people turn a blind eye to much worse abuse of horses everyday.
The fact that worse things happen in the world does not make Catwalk's treatment any better or more justifiable IMO
Robert Whitaker hasn't stepped up and complained ...
I'm not sure that is saying anything positive about Robert Whitaker TBH
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And some extra letters
 
Well said, Alfie&milo, no-one who was not an eyewitness to the incident can really know what took place and why. None of the welfare organisations is taking action against PP, none of those concerned with the organisation of the event has made a statement condemning what happened. etc. etc.
I can place a rope around any of my horses' legs and place their feet where I need to. It is not cruel - nor different to placing a restraint on the horse's head. I mentioned in a previous posting that no-one has talked about the other postings, but someone has said that, in the video where the horse is sharing a sandwich with a seated PP, the horse was exhausted, tied with a halter and rope AND a lassoo. The horse was not exhausted since this session took place on another day. And would a horse who felt so restrained eat in the first place? No, of course it wouldn't.

I have no issue with people passing a fair and informed opinion - that is their innate right - but when they are so obviously prejudiced it invalidates every word they speak.
 
Why are you putting words into my mouth, Caledonia? This is my real objection to this whole thread. As golfgirl is saying, there are those who have used this incident for their own anti-Parelli campaign, distorting what may very well have been a regrettable incident - I cannot say because I was not there and the fact that no-one is prosecuting PP for what happened rather belies some of the histrionic posting on this thread. There are others who post under multiple names, it appears, who are having a pop at someone else on this thread for their own personal reasons.

There are also others who do not seem to understand what "natural" means in the context of Parelli. I'd advise them to take the time to study a little of it so they can become more enlightened. Nothing that we do with horses is natural to them. For me the "natural" part is communicating our wishes to the horse using the language he understands - body language. just my humble opinion.

I would not personally use a gumline on a horse - but I don't know what led up to one being used. I have never seen PP use one before and I have seen a great deal of his pulications of all sorts. I do know that stallions can be very aggressive and some need to be handled with great expertise. Again, I don't know what this horse was like which led to it being gumlined. I once saw another famous handler use one to teach a horse not to buck - the horse came up against his own pressure and never bucked again. Job done, whether you support the means to the end or not. It was the saving of the horse's life, I feel, as previously the horse was unrideable.

Many people who work with horses, whether professional or amateur, used "natural" horsemanship to a greater or lesser extent. Some may not even realise that they are doing it. It is not some mystical cult, and it is unfair of the hate brigade to condemn the entire ethic on the basis of something that most of them didn't even witness. Cut out the hysterics and
keep to the realistic facts, IMHO.
 
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