Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

GerasHorse said:
A simple fact is that people who shout the loudest know the least. People are so quick to judge and it's perfectly normal and natural behavior. Calling Parelli names won't make you any better and won't make your horses any better. Pat has proved himself a million times - not to us, but to his horses, because it's their opinion that actually matters. If you don't understand the principles and the purpose then it does look like Pat is torturing the horse, however the follow-up videos say it all. Pat and Catwalk are putting on a bridle with confidence and for life! Pat and Catwalk did it together. Pat does things for the horse not TO the horse and it's a big difference. Catwalk will never have a bad bridling day again in his life. Pat did what he had to do for this horse - meaning he was assertive. It wasn't a lesson for us called "this is how you should bridle the horse", Pat has the knowledge and the ability to do things we can't and perhaps we don't understand. But asking for an appology from Parelli is like asking for an appology from the policeman who arrested your best friend for drunk driving.
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Finally some body has woken up!!! Well done I purely agree with your statememt!!!!!
 
jahseh said:
I think they are more demonstrations in the sense of public display of say like the red arrows (you wouldn't expect to fly a jet and do acrobatics after watching that would you? lol)
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So why display something that people wont understand? Not my words- parellis. apparently nobody understands what was demonstrated. A failing on the part of PP surely?


jahseh said:
He makes lots of effort to get people to understand you have listed some of the ways at the top of your post, or did that somehow bypass you?
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You obviously didnt read my whole post. No, it didnt bypass me. But if he makes so many efforts to get people to understand how come they still dont? Communication is 2 way, not one way. And if the other party doesnt understand then you need to change how you communicate- not blame the other party on being stupid!

jahseh said:
Understanding anything takes time and effort on the part of the student and knowledge usually isn't acquired in a blinding flash of revelation. After all you wouldn't expect to understand partical physics just because you knew 2 +2=4and 4x2=8 although if you didn't know the later I imagine understanding the physics might be difficult? If you don't study something you will never understand it and levels of understanding increase the more you study knowledge is not as far as I know finite. (unless of course you are god?)
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So why demonstrate such advanced techniques if your students are likely not to have the acquired knowledge beforehand. Again, PPs fault- not as he suggests the fault of the audience fo not realising that they needed to study him for years before they would understand. And anyway, thats a load of c**p because i have spoken to a couple of people that have been doing parelli for 5+ years each and they didnt understand it- in fact they were disgusted too!

Sorry but PP is at fault- not the audience and others. PP made a mistake and isnt man enough to admit it. instead the viewers get the blame for being stupid, not experienced, unfamiliar with things...... blah blah blah. As i said, a bad workman blames his tools
 
Unbeliever said:
Glad you like it 'cause this is what this whole thread is predicated on :)
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No, this thread is predicated on opinion. A description and video of a certain event was provided. What ensued was a discussion of people's opinions of whether or not what happened was abuse, of whether or not the demonstration went against the stated philosophy of Parelli's methods, of whether or not the poster approved of those methods.

None of that constitutes stating something as fact.

Granted, people have speculated and tried to discover certain facts. Whether Robert Whitaker was present throughout the entire demo. Whether a vet found lesions on Catwalk's mouth. How many vets examined him.

Mostly though, this is a thread of opinion. There is nothing wrong with that. We are all entitled to one.
 
Can i just say that when we confronted Pat Parelli after the awfull treatment of the stallion Catwalk all he did was say " i'm sorry". "What can i do to make it right with you." He said he was sorry a dozen times. he said he loved horses and even showed us the lesion on the horses top lip and gum. He just didn't seem right. I have seen him many times and was a Parelli supporter but this just sickened me. They gave us our money back and a free video of "happier times" sadly i am still to sick to watch it.:mad:
 
teddyt said:
So why display something that people wont understand? Not my words- parellis. apparently nobody understands what was demonstrated. A failing on the part of PP surely?




You obviously didnt read my whole post. No, it didnt bypass me. But if he makes so many efforts to get people to understand how come they still dont? Communication is 2 way, not one way. And if the other party doesnt understand then you need to change how you communicate- not blame the other party on being stupid!



So why demonstrate such advanced techniques if your students are likely not to have the acquired knowledge beforehand. Again, PPs fault- not as he suggests the fault of the audience fo not realising that they needed to study him for years before they would understand. And anyway, thats a load of c**p because i have spoken to a couple of people that have been doing parelli for 5+ years each and they didnt understand it- in fact they were disgusted too!

Sorry but PP is at fault- not the audience and others. PP made a mistake and isnt man enough to admit it. instead the viewers get the blame for being stupid, not experienced, unfamiliar with things...... blah blah blah. As i said, a bad workman blames his tools
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PP as you title him has not blamed his tools, if you followed the thread of his reasoning. I doubt that he expected the depth of the problems he would face with Catwalk as I don't think he would have chosen him as a demo horse for the very reason that people would be likely to misunderstand the techniques he was using if he did. But again in tune with his beliefs and practices he continued what he had started for the horse, when it has done his reputation no favours.
He actually has said it was a mistake to show them in a way because he apologised for the upset the lack of understanding (or whatever you want to call it) led to.
As for people who have been "doing" parelli for 5+ years understanding or not, being disgusted or not would depend on the people and exactly what they had been "doing" don't you think? Is that 5 years of study on a regular basis, a lesson once a month, a lesson once a week, once a year? Intensive study of the theory behind the practice or playing with their own horses without that depth of problems or what?
As for communication being a 2 way thing that is very true, but if information is offered and the other party either isn't interested or simply doesn't want to put in the effort then their isn't much you can do about it now is there? In your original list there was more than one way the parellis attempt to communicate other than ramming it down your throat what else would you expect them to do? I also haven't heard anyone from the Parelli organization call anyone stupid for not understanding where exactly has that happened?
 
Bramley said:
Can i just say that when we confronted Pat Parelli after the awfull treatment of the stallion Catwalk all he did was say " i'm sorry". "What can i do to make it right with you." He said he was sorry a dozen times. he said he loved horses and even showed us the lesion on the horses top lip and gum. He just didn't seem right. I have seen him many times and was a Parelli supporter but this just sickened me. They gave us our money back and a free video of "happier times" sadly i am still to sick to watch it.:mad:
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what do you mean when you say 'he didn't seem right'? Was he upset about the lesion on Catwalks gum? If he kept saying he was sorry, do you think he was a bit upset about what happened at the demo?
 
Bramley said:
Can i just say that when we confronted Pat Parelli after the awfull treatment of the stallion Catwalk all he did was say " i'm sorry". "What can i do to make it right with you." He said he was sorry a dozen times. he said he loved horses and even showed us the lesion on the horses top lip and gum. He just didn't seem right. I have seen him many times and was a Parelli supporter but this just sickened me. They gave us our money back and a free video of "happier times" sadly i am still to sick to watch it.:mad:
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This does suggest that whilst parelli might advocate methods used, perhaps he acted on impulse within the situation and is regretful of his decision.
 
Bramley said:
Can i just say that when we confronted Pat Parelli after the awfull treatment of the stallion Catwalk all he did was say " i'm sorry". "What can i do to make it right with you." He said he was sorry a dozen times. he said he loved horses and even showed us the lesion on the horses top lip and gum. He just didn't seem right. I have seen him many times and was a Parelli supporter but this just sickened me. They gave us our money back and a free video of "happier times" sadly i am still to sick to watch it.:mad:
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Hi Bramley,
It was me that walked away from him and Robert that night in discust after the show. It was me that returned a little later to tell him that he would live to regret his actions and warn him of a youtube download which did seem to hit the spot. I agree with you in regard to his mood. Even though I havn't met him before, he didn't seem right to me as he had this damm great stupid grin on his face all the time, but then again, I doubt the great man has ever had to face such wrath from his devoted followers as he did that night??

I to have the DVD unwrapped and still sitting on the table.
 
pippinpie said:
You also have to understand the tools that PP used and how they were used.Gum lines and twitches in expert hands are proven to aid pacifying a horse, (not going into the science on that now) leg restraints again not everyone is familiar with this method, looks horrendous to the onlooker who doesn't understand it uses in helping a horse understand that in relinquishing leadership is not a bad thing but the right thing.
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So what is the science behind the use of leg restraints? Is it known, or made up?

Talking about Catwalk's problem with bridling in terms of "leadership" sounds really odd to me. He seemed perfectly okay with everything else that was done with him - really quite well mannered in fact. In that sense, he was already accepting the "leadership" of humans. It was just that he hated having a bridle put on and being handled in certain ways round his head. Making that into a problem of his having leadership he didn't want to relinquish is, to my mind, like calling a spade a fish. If that is truly what Parelli believed, maybe it is what led him into the silly stuff with leg restraints when simple but patiently delivered sessions of desensitization (similar to that shown in the Michael Peace video) would have worked just fine and upset the horse (and audience) less.
 
And, to add. He knew exactly what he was doing and even came equiped with the gum twitch in his pocket. The man wanted to give a good show like they do in the westerns!

There must of bee 100 or more non Parellians at that demo, he knew it becausethey asked for hands to be raised. Turn them into parellians, get them to buy the package and the membership???.....................
You do the sums!!!!

I'm sill as mad as a snake!!!:mad::mad:
 
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elsbells said:
And, to add. He knew exactly what he was doing and even came equiped with the gum twitch in his pocket. The man wanted to give a good show like they do in the westerns!

There must of bee 100 or more non Parellians at that demo, he knew it becausethey asked for hands to be raised. Turn them into parellians, get them to buy the package and the membership???.....................
You do the sums!!!!

I'm sill as mad as a snake!!!:mad::mad:
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And quite rightly so. Not exactly what it says on the can heh?
 
jahseh said:
As for people who have been "doing" parelli for 5+ years understanding or not, being disgusted or not would depend on the people and exactly what they had been "doing" don't you think? Is that 5 years of study on a regular basis, a lesson once a month, a lesson once a week, once a year? Intensive study of the theory behind the practice or playing with their own horses without that depth of problems or what?
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Yes. And one of them teaches the methods!


As for communication being a 2 way thing that is very true, but if information is offered and the other party either isn't interested or simply doesn't want to put in the effort then their isn't much you can do about it now is there?
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Why were the people at the demo if they werent interested?


In your original list there was more than one way the parellis attempt to communicate other than ramming it down your throat what else would you expect them to do?
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Whatever way they choose to communicate it cant be working if parelli and non-parelli people both dont understand what they saw. Thats PPs words- he said 'what people thought they saw' amongst other things insinuating people misunderstood his methods. So its their failing. Either that or the methods are what people think- wrong. But PP wont accept he is the one with the flaws. No, everyone else has the problem. He demonstrates brilliantly and his methods are perfect :rolleyes:
 
bloody nora - who are you to talk to anyone like that ??? Another on ignore *sigh*

sorry elsbells, shouldn't have asked :o my mistake.
 
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baymareb said:
No, this thread is predicated on opinion. A description and video of a certain event was provided. What ensued was a discussion of people's opinions of whether or not what happened was abuse, of whether or not the demonstration went against the stated philosophy of Parelli's methods, of whether or not the poster approved of those methods.

None of that constitutes stating something as fact.

Granted, people have speculated and tried to discover certain facts. Whether Robert Whitaker was present throughout the entire demo. Whether a vet found lesions on Catwalk's mouth. How many vets examined him.

Mostly though, this is a thread of opinion. There is nothing wrong with that. We are all entitled to one.
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Hmm. All I've seen is a pretty ropey video which does not seem to show what it was purported to.

The comments re the Vet's report have been pretty thouroughly discounted as have references to BHS officials.

I tend to base my opinions on facts, not predjudices. How about you?
 
shysmum said:
elsbells - has anyone come to you for a statement yet ? PM me if you like. sm x
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No shysmum they havn't and i don't mind you asking at all. I have offered it if needed. It appears though that my initial post has been used on more than one occation of which I am suprised and pleased. To be quite honest though, that is my statement.
 
teddyt said:
Yes. And one of them teaches the methods!




Why were the people at the demo if they werent interested?




Whatever way they choose to communicate it cant be working if parelli and non-parelli people both dont understand what they saw. Thats PPs words- he said 'what people thought they saw' amongst other things insinuating people misunderstood his methods. So its their failing. Either that or the methods are what people think- wrong. But PP wont accept he is the one with the flaws. No, everyone else has the problem. He demonstrates brilliantly and his methods are perfect :rolleyes:
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Yes what! it can't be all of them they are all different, teaches at what level and with what rating? Most of the people commenting have said they were not there and understanding takes more than attending one demo duh!

You are not talking about a single thing but a whole system of thought and way of working with horses you could no more learn that from one demo than you could learn to train and perform a grand prix dressage test on a novice horse from one demo on how to ride a test at that level, or even to ride a grand prix test on a made horse unless you already had sufficient knowledge to ride and perform the movements.

It has been pointed out else where on this thread that there are books or papers documenting the theory behind the use of the methods that most people have objected to (non parelli books) and the titles etc were given can't remember where or what they were but it is there.
As to what people saw no two accounts are the same people have "seen"
horses with their legs tied up, hobbles, twitches, or people who are expert at what they do using tools they are expert with, sessions lasting anywhere from 1 to 3 hours, a horse with multiple wounds terrified and suffering severe trauma, or a horse that didn't even break a sweat, people who were there the whole time (or not), a horse with its spirit irretrievably broken who will never trust a human again, or a horse well on the way to having a severe problem solved. Or any number of things in between!
 
Unbeliever said:
Hmm. All I've seen is a pretty ropey video which does not seem to show what it was purported to.

The comments re the Vet's report have been pretty thouroughly discounted as have references to BHS officials.

I tend to base my opinions on facts, not predjudices. How about you?
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I try to base my opinions the same way. Because of that, I have been reluctant to describe what happened with Catwalk (or the blind horse in the LP video) as abuse. From what I have seen of both incidents, I cannot categorically say that's what it was.

However, based on eyewitness testimony - from both supporters and non-supporters - I do feel comfortable with my opinion that the methods used do not seem to fit Parelli's own description of his methods as "love, language and leadership." Nor do they seem to fit his own statements regarding restraint and mechanical means.

I just don't care for the guy's methods or his way of doing business. I'm not sure why that's so offensive to you.
 
shysmum said:
I dunno, just when they hoped it "might" be dying down over here, eh ;).

I'm really interested to know what the general vibe is in the US about all this ? Has it kicked up as much of a stink as over here ? Have there been issues with Parelli before over there ? What's the general view of it all on the forums over there ? And if anyone is in Australia...same questions !

Sorry, just curious. sm x
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Haven't read the in-between posts yet, but I'm American and I can tell you that this Catwalk nonsense has not caused quite the furor in America that it had in Great Britain. Yes, there were threads on other horse forums, with all the same sentiments but they were much shorter.

The reason is that the majority of horsemen/women in the US have known for a long time that Pat Parelli is full of baloney, so this isn't really anything surprising. Mostly, many were simply quite gleeful that he yet again showed his true colors and hopefully won't make too much of a foothold financially in your country as a result.
 
Lsrd1 said:
Haven't read the in-between posts yet, but I'm American and I can tell you that this Catwalk nonsense has not caused quite the furor in America that it had in Great Britain. Yes, there were threads on other horse forums, with all the same sentiments but they were much shorter.

The reason is that the majority of horsemen/women in the US have known for a long time that Pat Parelli is full of baloney, so this isn't really anything surprising. Mostly, many were simply quite gleeful that he yet again showed his true colors and hopefully won't make too much of a foothold financially in your country as a result.
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Just to cheer everyone up on a wet July Sunday morning, if you could do with a really, really good giggle, go to this site
http://thesecondsight.blogspot.com/2007/02/worshipping-at-temple-of-mammon.html - look up "levitating horses" ... took me a while to work out what the site was all about, but I have had such a long loud laugh! It is on topic....
 
this is a quote from a website i found which makes some very good points. I'm neutral about this, don't want to take any sides as i do not know all the facts.

Pat Parelli, Catwalk, Blah Blah Blah
Pat parelli
Pat Parelli is getting a lot of flak at present for a video of him working a horse at the Festival of the Horse. If you want the details, just google parelli and catwalk and it will be all over your computer like a rash. You will also see old videos of Pat and Linda Parelli working with horses in a way that "enlightened" horse owners won't like.

The Festival of the Horse video possibly shows PP going on for longer than he should have. Now I would have used a completely different approach, mostly involving treats, becuase that is the way I work. I doubt I would have been any more successful. But nothing PP was doing was cruel. Going on too long has to be the commonest mistake in horsemanship, the "one more go and he'll get it right" syndrome. Been there, done that.

The old videos of Pat loading horses and Linda with a horse on a long line are old videos. I have done things I regret. I suspect most people reading this have done things they regret. I hope I have improved as a horseman, but I have hit ponies with sticks and whips, I have banged them in the mouth with bits. I have been rough and agressive. I can't undo that. Some things are on video, they are all in my memory.

I can't delete them, I can't not have done them, but I am the horseman I am today because of my past mistakes. I hope I have learned, but the learning process is not helped by vicious attacks from the sidelines.

What is it about "natural horsemanship" people that they are so keen to attack those on their own side, but stay fairly quiet about the compulsory whips, compulsory bits, promotion of inbreeding, enthusiasm for shoes and disdain for safety that characterises traditional horsemanship.

I know a lot of Parelli enthusiasts, and I know they are completely wrong to pay money to Pat Parelli when they could pay that money to me. Yes Pat Parelli is a good businessman and makes money. Gosh, and nobody who does traditional horsemanship makes money, or is rich, or successful, or arrogant, or opinionated.

I don't use Pat Parelli's methods. Pat Parelli doesn't use my methods. I think mine are better, and I suspect he feels the same about his, but he has fought long and hard against the bedrock of tradition which I respect. I respect the Parelli enthusiats I know (and I still think they could give the money to me).

I watched a Parelli trained guy working with a string of young polo ponies, all on rope halters, all on loose reins, all fit and alert, and a joy to behold. I respect that and all the other examples of good horsemanship from PP's teaching. PP may have gone on too long at the Festival of the Horse, but then again it may have been necessary. His style isn't my style, but that doesn't make him a bad man. He's richer and more successful than I am, than most horsemen, and that doesn't make him a bad man. He may, repeat may, have made a mistake.

Most of us have.
and here's the link: http://saddlechariot.blogspot.com/2010/07/pat-parelli-catwalk-blah-blah-blah.html

just want to know what people think of this??
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Don't want to get into the pros and cons of Parelli and his methods. However, what does interest me is that Catwalk gets in excess of 2,600 threads and yet the stunt involving the Russian donkey warrants barely 50 comments. Is it Parelli or real horse/donkey welfare that is causing so much comment?
 
Jerriman said:
Don't want to get into the pros and cons of Parelli and his methods. However, what does interest me is that Catwalk gets in excess of 2,600 threads and yet the stunt involving the Russian donkey warrants barely 50 comments. Is it Parelli or real horse/donkey welfare that is causing so much comment?
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on this evidence parelli lol
 
Jerriman said:
Don't want to get into the pros and cons of Parelli and his methods. However, what does interest me is that Catwalk gets in excess of 2,600 threads and yet the stunt involving the Russian donkey warrants barely 50 comments. Is it Parelli or real horse/donkey welfare that is causing so much comment?
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I would say neither, IMO welfare considerations in this case are incidental - lack of professionalism and hypocrisy is the overriding issue.
As to the Russian donkey - the case is fairly simple, isn't it? Straight cut cruelty incident that needs prosecuting.
 
manes&tails said:
just want to know what people think of this??
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I think for the most part it misses the point. The point is that what people saw at the Festival of the Horse was not what the Parellis advertise - methods that use trust and understanding rather than restraints and mechanical devices.

The issue is not whether or not people cut down NH per se while not saying anything about whips, etc. (which is a strawman argument because the majority of responsible horse people I know are just as adamant against the MIS-use of such things as they are against the misrepresentations put forth by PP). Nor is it whether Parelli-trained horses are well behaved (the old end-justifies-the-means argument).

The issue is whether there is hypocrisy in using methods you've previously decried.

As soon as people steer their argument away from the specific instance and into the realm of "well, traditionalists do this..." or "I know Parelli-trained horses that do that..." they've lost the argument, in my opinion. It just becomes deflection rather than debate.
 
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