Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

This is Pat Parelli remember. We may eventually see an edited version of the video (complete with music) BUT only if we PAY FOR IT! :lol:
 
ponydentist said:
The events which unfolded have beyond any doubt caused many people to change their view based on what was SEEN. It is clear that what many people SAW,they did not understand the rationale of. As is so very very often the case, we look...but we dont see...we listen.. but we dont hear.
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OK, I wasn't there and would like to see the video before I condemn anyone. However, it is clear that many people were upset/shocked by the way Catwalk was treated. It is all very well for the Parelli camp to dismiss these concerns by claiming that people did not understand the rationale but did they, at any point, explain what they were doing and the rationale behind it?

This was, I believe, a demonstration and therefore it should not have been assumed that the audience have any knowledge of the principles of Parelli. If any actions were open to "misinterpretation" then the Parelli's had a responsibility to their audience to explain these actions.

I have never seen a Parelli demonstration but I have seen many demonstrations by professional riders and on the whole they have all explained what they are doing and why they are doing it.
 
Who has ever had their horse sedated to be clipped? and if so why?

Who has ever used a twitch on a horse to say......pull its mane?

Who has ever held one leg up on a horse to make it stand still whilst say....for instance...puttinh hoof oil on....or putting on travell boots?

Who has ever tied their dog to a fence.....post....lorry etc etc .....or put a muzzle on it when taking it to the vets ....etc etc?
 
ponydentist said:
Who has ever had their horse sedated to be clipped? and if so why?

Who has ever used a twitch on a horse to say......pull its mane?

Who has ever held one leg up on a horse to make it stand still whilst say....for instance...puttinh hoof oil on....or putting on travell boots?

Who has ever tied their dog to a fence.....post....lorry etc etc .....or put a muzzle on it when taking it to the vets ....etc etc?
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Irrelevant. Many of us will have done these, but we can explain WHY. Parelli people never explain WHY they do things, and just say oh well you don't understand so you are stupid. If we all understood WHY Catwalk was treated as he was, perhaps then we could form other opinions on Parelli. At every clinic or demo I have attended, the teacher has explained what we will do and why we will do it that way - that is the mark of a good teacher. The experience I have of watching Parelli DVDs is that there is never a reason for what he is doing, just a set of instructions. Having just completed a teaching qualification, the understanding part of teaching is the most important - doling out a set of instructions helps no one in the long term.
 
I've followed this thread with a great deal of interest. Ponydentist, you appear to be becoming defensive and you are not addressing the VERY sensible issues brought up by Stolensilver, Weevil, Eahotson and others. We repeatedly hear that Parelli is the ONLY way, and that the rest of us are cruel in the techniques we use. If PP is using those techniques, then why are they only cruel when WE use them? If it's a lack of understanding, then why don't you, or someone else explain? So far there has been no explanation, just you saying that we ALL use restraining techniques, so what are we b!tching about, right? If we're all using the same techniques, what makes PP so great?
 
ponydentist said:
Who has ever had their horse sedated to be clipped? and if so why?

Who has ever used a twitch on a horse to say......pull its mane?

Who has ever held one leg up on a horse to make it stand still whilst say....for instance...puttinh hoof oil on....or putting on travell boots?

Who has ever tied their dog to a fence.....post....lorry etc etc .....or put a muzzle on it when taking it to the vets ....etc etc?
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But when we do these things we can explain why and generally, it is not done for demonstrative purposes and only for a short time.

Sedation in the stable when necessary is not the same as twitching a horse under lights in front of a large crowd.

I have no problems with twitching in general as long as it's not for too long but again, there's been no clear explanation as to why it was done in the demo and what the technique was.

I hardly think lifting up a leg for a few seconds to put boots on is comparable to tying up a horse's leg to teach it a lesson.

Dogs are a whole different ball game and I don't have a problem with tying horses or dogs up but again, there has been no real explanation of the technique used in the demo.

I still don't UNDERSTAND...
 
Well yes I've tied my dog to things, for example if I am walking him past a shop and need to get a loaf of bread - how is that cruelty?

Yes I have muzzled him for the vet, because he was in a lot of pain and even the nicest natured animal can bite when in pain and I was concerned for the safety of my vet and myself.

We have had an opinion from a person so experienced in Parelli that they were about to become an instructor and they didn't even understand what PP was doing with Catwalk. The groom is threatening to walk out, it doesn't sound all that harmless to me. Also your statement that everyone will realise that it's too complicated for them to try at home - what rubbish! So many idiots have no clue what they are doing and will do anything they see a "professional" do anyway.

NH should be simple yet effective - as I said on the last P thread I am a MR/KM person, I find what they say and teach simple, practical and effective. I went with a friend to a demo when their horse was being used as part of the demo - I can vouch that this horse was a pig to load, not because he was scared but because he was stubborn. I have been there helping them try and load this horse for four hours before giving up, then I walked with her as she hacked the horse home. I watched all the pre-demo groundwork they did and then the demo itself, no fancy tricks used or behind-the-scenes trickery and the horse was loading within 30 minutes - and I understood the whole process from start to finish.
 
ponydentist said:
Who has ever had their horse sedated to be clipped? and if so why?

Who has ever used a twitch on a horse to say......pull its mane?

Who has ever held one leg up on a horse to make it stand still whilst say....for instance...puttinh hoof oil on....or putting on travell boots?

Who has ever tied their dog to a fence.....post....lorry etc etc .....or put a muzzle on it when taking it to the vets ....etc etc?
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I think some of us brits need to open our eyes and minds... there is so much going on in the rest of the world but we plow on with the same old same old Im sure pat p is a great horseman /showman as well as a salesman but he has a certain way himself and im not sure many can emulate his way of doing things it seems like there are gaps and things that we dont get...., Oh yes people use all sorts of harsh gadgets twitchs etc and how many will kick and pull a horse that just wasnt sure of something out on a hack or during schooling when if he had been given a second to look and see what he would have willingly gone on or over... most people need to literaly give the horse more slack!! my pet hate is tight reins the more you pull the more they brace why dont people get it.. we need to understand more and remember we are oftern the problem and not the horse... The horse will teach you if you'll listen...
 
weevil...

Totally accepted that Pat should have explained the rationale behind everything he did that night. Perhaps he's accepted that and perhaps if the video is made availabel......it will be narrated and not edited to reflect on that mistake.

I think that he has accepted that he should have explained the pyscology behind his choice of methodology to apply in that particular scenario. It was easy for me to see that even he realised as things progressed that with this particular horse....things were not going to be as easy as first thought.

There were some significantant turning points for horse and handler during the time and even I at one stage turned to my wife and said...there, did you see that....I'll give it twenty mins to half an hour now and he'll be accepting the bridle......Pat must have thought so too because a couple of mins later he went to get the bridle...I will add that all this time..catwalk was totally unstressed and the behaviour he displayed was not that of a frightened horse at all. I was wrong....and so was Pat.....but so what...we all do that. Ive seen top show jumpers doing demo,s and saying..."right, Think he's ready to jump higher now"....only to try jump the fence and the horse trashes it.

When Pat went to the use of the gum pacifier he explained why he was going to use it and about what endorphines do in relation to interupting a horses chain of thought.

Admittedly he didnt explain about hobbling thoroughly enough for some people before going down that route.

the horse follwed him around ....freely at times.....after hobbling and there were oppertunities where the Stallion could have....and would have.... demonstrated his ability to use his feet if he had felt under TOO much pressure....but he didnt. He broke free yes.....but willingly led back to the spot from where he did.

Maybe Pats biggest mistake was asuming that the audience understood more than they did about horses.

The major breakthrough which is refered to in accounts of the events from Parelli was when catwalk walked over to Pat and put his head on Pats chest for him to rub it.

To me its as if the horse was saying.....ok....ive got a problem....help me.......but lets quit here for now. And thats where it did end for then. Robert was asked if he was prepared to let Him work more with the horse and he said he was.

There were possibly some errorrs in judgement commited.....but no abuse.
 
i read 5 pages and got annoyed.

has anyone got the link to the video of what happend??

i used to be all for parelli, but not anymore.... its all about ££ and the big name.
 
"Who has ever had their horse sedated to be clipped? and if so why?

Who has ever used a twitch on a horse to say......pull its mane?

Who has ever held one leg up on a horse to make it stand still whilst say....for instance...puttinh hoof oil on....or putting on travell boots?"

Irrelevant and - no, I've not done any of those things. I use approach and retreat (as first taught in my Parelli student days!), not force.

I'm thinking this Parelli-speak is emperor's new clothes, and I'm qualified to judge having been a student for a long time and even worked for them. I'm waiting for a decent equine behaviourist to join in here and explain what a horse really thinks when something like this is done to it, and why it follows the person who does it.

I agree with the person who said, if this had been seen at Appleby Fair reactions would have been completely different.
 
I am normally a sit on the fence type and let everyone else get on with it, but as I am in a foul mood anyway here is my opinion in non edited version.

Parelli is over priced clap trap and a load of b*llocks! If you are scared of your horse sell it to someone who isn't dont spend horse on the ground with a poxy string headcollar and a big yoga ball!!!!!

I spend time on the ground with my horse for fun and I also practice dressage following sylvia lock and of course the gods who are the Spanish Riding School of Vienna! Yes groundwork has its place and I am in awe of the Spanish riding school, but it takes years and years of trust and practice!

My horse is an ex racer OTTB bought in April, I ride her and lunge and long rein and just play at liberty in the school. But I dont need a F***ing carrot stick and an expensive head collar!!! My horse trusts me without all that clap trap and quite happily follows me about! It is about spending time with your horse, trust and a bucket load of patience! NOTHING HAS A QUICK FIX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Parelli is utter codswallop and as soon as crappy horsemen/ women realise that they are **** and can't make it better with stupid gadgets the better!!!!

(And breathes)
 
Ponydentist, I was reading your last post with interest and you were doing so well in explaining things rationally (instead of getting all defensive as in previous posts) until you described PP as 'Him'. With a capital H that is normally reserved for God.

Sorry, but you can no longer tell me that you aren't brainwashed and Parelli isn't a cult (for want of a better word).

'Him'! I really really can't believe that!
 
Why is this sort of thing called 'natural horsemanship'? I dont think its natural to use a gum line or tie up a foreleg.
Some of these people make a big deal of being able to ride witout a saddle or bridle or put shoes on a horse but seem to think its ok to treat a horse like that. Wierd.
 
ponydentist said:
Who has ever had their horse sedated to be clipped? and if so why?

Who has ever used a twitch on a horse to say......pull its mane?

Who has ever held one leg up on a horse to make it stand still whilst say....for instance...puttinh hoof oil on....or putting on travell boots?

Who has ever tied their dog to a fence.....post....lorry etc etc .....or put a muzzle on it when taking it to the vets ....etc etc?[/QUOTE

The word that comes to mind here is desensitisation! Slowly slowly catchy monkey!
Nobody can expect a horse that is genuinely scared of something to stand there and take it but with time and patience most things can be overcome imo.
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I don't think that anybody is saying that restraint per se is bad or cruel, after all we restrain our horses with a headcollar every day; but unnecessary or over the top restraint is another matter.

I do think that this horse's issues could be resolved in a much kinder way with time and patience; the vids posted earlier in this thread with the headshy horse also showed a fairly extreme reaction, and yet it was sorted with minimal fuss and no twitches or tying up of forelegs, a far better route to take than resorting to force straight off. Yes, perhaps Pat Parelli does get quick results, personally I'd prefer to give a horse with such deep seated issues time and understanding.

My grandfather was a very old fashioned horseman with working horses, he bought a horse that had been ear twitched and wouldn't let anyone near its head, at the time his horses were kept in stalls and he hung things from the rafters that meant when the horse used his manger, his ears got touched, he also worked on slowly desensitising him with running his hand a bit further up his neck towards his ears each day. I was only a young child so I don't know how bad the horse was, or how long it took, but I know he ended up with a horse that could be handled quite easily.

So no, I'd have to say I don't understand the concepts Parelli is promoting and I'm not sure I particularly want to if there is another, to my mind kinder, way of dealing with it. This strikes me as the type of quick fix, violent breaking techniques that I though natural horsemanship was trying to move away from, working with the horse and not simply dominating him.
 
I appologise here.

My use of capital letters etc in my posts is not meant to appear as if im shouting......im just trying to highlight....what i feel...in my opinion...are important points.....that i feel some are missing.....its just my opinion.....as are everyone elses. Im not being defensive......just trying to remain open minded.

Ive just asked my wife why she insists on pulling Cody's (our horse) mane (which he hates). Her reply was "thats part of his job (show horse) and he needs to have it done".......Says who?? I am certain Cody would much rather prefer to be out in his field eating all day long everyday for the rest of his life.

How many of think that a horse enjoys having a bit in its mouth. It has clearly been demonstrated that horses can perform many tasks without them. So, if it is beyond a doubt proven that it can be done...why do so many still use bits. It is human supremacy over animals....its why we kep horses and other animals....it makes us feel better if we do.

There are few right or wrong ways to do things with horses......some may be seen through human eyes as less harsh or cruel than others....but are they the right way....or not.

I attended a Ray Hunt trailer loading clinic once and a man asked Ray..."what is THE way then Ray to load horses" His reply was..."threre is no THE way....if you spend your life tring to find it you will ruin a lot of horses along the way...then how will you feel at the end of it" He then loaded 12 "unloadable" horses into trailers using different methods.

Nobody knows why this man chose to use this horse in a demonstration type scenario. But Im certain he will learn something from what has happened. What he did wasnt the wrong way....and he certainly never once claimed it to be the "right2 way during the demo......it was however "A" way. from starting at 7.30 friday evening to finishing sometime on saturday, it got a desired result and ended with a horse who has one less hang up then he did before friday.

My understanding of what one leg hobbling is about and where and how it should be applied...used..whatever you wish to call it...is that what tying one leg up on a horse does is that it puts him in a very vunerable situation / position.....posibly one of his worst case scenarios because he cannot run as he would like to if the need arose. whilst he is in that predicament he probably at some stage thinks hes going to die.....but if nice things happen to him whilst hes in that situation and his worse fears dont come true he can cope with and conforont thise fears in a much more confident way in future. In Catwalks case...his leg was temporarily (in no way harmfully) made unavailable to him. he could still stand up.....and was given the opertunity to realise that he could still move around if he felt he simply must do......yet the man in front didnt hurt him....cause him pain and still made good things happen when he allowed him to touch his ears and put his hands over his head ...then what could be worse than that....he didnt die like he thought he would. Pat didnt attempt to put the bridle on when catwalks foreleg was "tied" up (temporarily removed). It wasnt done primarily as a "RESTRAINT". He did ask him to lower his head....and to allow him to touch his ears and when he did this the rope was removed and he was given his leg back agin to show no hard feelings and your worse fears didnt happen....they were only that....fears in your own head. THAT was the point of the hobbling in that particular scenario....and that is how it happened. I agree that Pat should have said what and why was happening a little better.

The use of the calmer (it wasnt a twitch as so many of you keep calling it) was to help him controll his emotions....horses cant multi task....they cant think and react at the same time. He was reacting.....he needed to get his "birdie" back in its cage.....i.e engage thinking mode.....endorphines help to do this and when applied correctly in the right places devices such as this help with this. There is an element of discomfort in applying a device such as this.....in exactly the same way as there is when using a martingale to achieve the same way......does this mean everyone who uses one is cruel. keep remembering that this case was extreme......not dangerous....YET....but the problem ....AS IT TRANSPIRED in Catwalks head was deeprooted which makes you think.....my God...just what has happened to him to make it so. The calmer was released....by Catwalk himself....countless times.
 
Ok...no more posts from me.

I understand the pyschology involved but im obviously not very good a trying to portray it in writing....so I appologise there. Im not defending Pat parelli or putting him on his crucifixtion pedistal (and the use of the Captital H in the word him was purely a typo error)......im just explaining that I dont see this particular methodology which I have seen used several times by several leading horsemen and women to great effect with many troubled horses as abuse. What i have learned fom them more than anything else was to open my mind to as many things as possible......it was the turning point for me.

This whole incident will certainly be a learning curve for many.....in more ways than one. The horse which is what Im concerned about more than anything else here has come through this and has reached the other side without loosing any faith in human kind.

Continue with the witch hunt.
 
To work in that way with a horse for more than 2 hours is abuse in the view of many. I don't know (or care) who else has done it with success, two (or three) wrongs don't make a right.
Certainly in my case this is not a bl**dy witch hunt, if travellers did this, or if the Queen herself did it my reaction would be the same.
 
We confronted Pat and Robert . I tried to get the officials to stop it. The gum line was cutting the horses lip and gums causing a wound. Pat tied up it's front leg and also tied it's head to the front leg with Linda hauling on the rope. That horse showed no sign at any point of agression and just took the pain. The vet examined the horse the next day and found a wound under it's lip. He stopped Catwalk being used again. Thank god. I fely phisically sick and was shaking from top to bottom. To quote Roberts words when i asked him why he let his horse be tortured he said that was ok by him! Pat is six foot two and spent two hours hauling on that gumline. So much for love language and leadership. I have never seen anything so viscious in my life. Pat did say he was sorry and what could he do to make it right with me. I said never do this again to a horse. Lets hope he never does.
 
Bramley said:
We confronted Pat and Robert . I tried to get the officials to stop it. The gum line was cutting the horses lip and gums causing a wound. Pat tied up it's front leg and also tied it's head to the front leg with Linda hauling on the rope. That horse showed no sign at any point of agression and just took the pain. The vet examined the horse the next day and found a wound under it's lip. He stopped Catwalk being used again. Thank god. I fely phisically sick and was shaking from top to bottom. To quote Roberts words when i asked him why he let his horse be tortured he said that was ok by him! Pat is six foot two and spent two hours hauling on that gumline. So much for love language and leadership. I have never seen anything so viscious in my life. Pat did say he was sorry and what could he do to make it right with me. I said never do this again to a horse. Lets hope he never does.
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Congratulations on doing the right thing for a horse who doesnt appear to have been listened to, by those far too willing to chastise those of us who do, without wasting our £££s!!
Sadly I doubt your intervention will make any difference because the P circus is just too big.
 
ponydentist said:
Ok...no more posts from me.

I understand the pyschology involved but im obviously not very good a trying to portray it in writing....so I appologise there. Im not defending Pat parelli or putting him on his crucifixtion pedistal (and the use of the Captital H in the word him was purely a typo error)......im just explaining that I dont see this particular methodology which I have seen used several times by several leading horsemen and women to great effect with many troubled horses as abuse. What i have learned fom them more than anything else was to open my mind to as many things as possible......it was the turning point for me.

This whole incident will certainly be a learning curve for many.....in more ways than one. The horse which is what Im concerned about more than anything else here has come through this and has reached the other side without loosing any faith in human kind.

Continue with the witch hunt.
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Frankly I find your final comment unnecessary. Most of us have just been asking genuine questions in the pursuit of information so we can understand what went on with Catwalk and better understand Parelli. Kudos for coming on here and giving your point of view. I've read your replies with interest and will watch the video (should it ever appear) with your comments in mind.
 
ponydentist said:
The use of the calmer (it wasnt a twitch as so many of you keep calling it)
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More than twenty years ago I was taught about the fitting and use of a commanche twitch.

It is fitted exactly as desribed on here and operated by the use of pressure on the free end of the rope.

'Calmer' is just a new name designed to be more acceptable to people.
 
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