Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

[AmyMay]

Haven't read the whole massive thread - so sorry if I'm asking a question that's been raised before.

But what are the organisers of Stonleigh doing about the 'demonstration', and has the abuse been reported to the relevant welfare organisations?

Does anyone know why the 'demonstration' wasn't halted by those in charge at the time?

Did no one attempt to stop it??

 

[muffinino]

My issue with many demos of this kind is that instant, miraculous results are expected by the audience, and that's not always possible with horses. Some things take time to sort out, you have to go for tiny, incremental improvements rather than magic cures. The format of these demos - not just Parelli, other horse whisperer type demos of all kinds - often seems geared towards the amazing magic cure rather than a more structured approach that people could actually take home and do themselves.

For example, with a headshy horse, you could set your first goal as being able to calmly stroke his head all over, and work up - not march straight in with the goal of getting a bridle on straight away. For a horse scared of loading your first step might be just calmly walking through the trailer - not loading straight in and driving off the first time you try.

I totally agree. I've never understood why people think its amazing that you can get results in an hour through these methods and why gaining a horse's trust through patience and quieter methods aren't as valid. As much as I respect Monty Roberts, I'll never forget what my instructor said when the documentary about him taming a wild mustang in three days came out. She could not understand why chasing it for three days straight until it was tired, dehydrated and at the point of giving up, then hopping on its back, was acceptable, more so than slowly taming it and letting it learn that it had nothing to fear from humans. Having worked with wild ponies and broken them for driving over a period of time, I'm inclined to agree with her.

 

[ester]

amymay... having read the whole thread I don't think there are any answers for you in it.

 

[Crackajack]

actually there is a girl on here with a horse called lacey who is a rearer who has flipped. I know that she has sent her to someone using MR techniques and they are using a very large set of blinkers... the theory being if they can't see above them they won't go up.

Re I think callyh's comment of PP kicking the horse I didn't really see it as that more him just lifting his head... without having to bend down and pick it up. So I didnt really see anything wrong with that... sure I have used my foot to lift sleepy pony's head up from the ground slightly!

I use my feet to ask my horse to pick his head up - normally when im tacking up and he decides he wants to keep his head on the floor and puff out...i dont touch him its just more of a lazy signal to him!
I dont know about the blinkers tho...?
Has anybody found a video of the night when he did Robert's horse?
Ive started looking through the thread but kinda gave up!

 

[Oldred]

Above all else, for the sake of Catwalk I really, really hope the reports of the injury caused by the gum twitch being so bad a vet refused to let him be used again on the Saturday are untrue, because if they are, well, there are no words for how angry that makes me. That PP, LP and RW, all respected in the horse world (by different people, although none of them by me), could do this for three hours and think its ok for the horse to walk away injured makes me sick. I don’t care what you think of Parelli or any other method, I do not care what anybody says about PP releasing the pressure throughout the show, for that to happen is totally, completely, utterly unacceptable on any level.

Does anybody know if these reports have been confirmed?

I am sorry to say it is true. If you would like to ring the Festival of the Horse organisers - Alice Bell 02476 858276 she will confirm this. Andrea Jackman, BHS Development Officer 01686 627050 is also aware of the situation. Both acted admirably at the time and I thank them.

 

[AmyMay]

amymay... having read the whole thread I don't think there are any answers for you in it.

Thanks Ester.

Nothing on YouTube either.

I wonder how many people who saw the demo will be writing letters of complaint to the Stonleight organisers. Would be a very interesting topic for H&H to follow up.

 

[new-here]

Okay, this may be kinda random, but to those of you who are fans of endo ...

http://www.youtube.com/user/endospink#p/u/61/M6NUnAoRNLc

I can't remember who said it or when it was said, but a few of you have talked about restraining terrified horses (not the exact words, but you get the idea). Now I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can come on here with all these negative comments about Parelli but like this? All I seen in this video was a horse forced in to submission. Did you see how tight he was pulling on that horses bit?

Horses are prey animals, as many of you said, they are most vunerable when lying down. Why then force this horse to lie down? Fight or flight. He tried to run, but couldn't. He tried to fight and then gave up. Horses are not affraid we're going to hurt them, they're afraid we're going to kill them. That horse effectively thought he was about to die. He gave up.

I'm almost certain that horses mouth hurt almost as much (maybe more) than RW stallion. And I can assure you, it looked way more distressed. That particular horse came out of that with no dignity at all.

I'm not justifying anything that happened at festival of the horse, I'm just throwing in some food for thought.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

She could not understand why chasing it for three days straight until it was tired, dehydrated and at the point of giving up, then hopping on its back, was acceptable, more so than slowly taming it and letting it learn that it had nothing to fear from humans. Having worked with wild ponies and broken them for driving over a period of time, I'm inclined to agree with her.

I agree, I couldnt understand what was acceptable about that either and have never thought much of MR because of that.

 

[AmyMay]

I am sorry to say it is true. If you would like to ring the Festival of the Horse organisers - Alice Bell she will confirm this. Andrea Jackman, BHS Development Officer is also aware of the situation. Both acted admirably at the time and I thank them.

What did they do??

 

[lastchancer]

We hear so much about the cruelty at Appleby horse fair.
The R.S.P.C.A. World horse welfare etc should attend these shows and put an end to thecruel pain and suffering these animals are put through.

Absolutely - but of course the Tinks don't bother with sentimental music, and fancy cowboy clothes do they?? I know who I'd sooner trust with my horse and it wouldn't be Pat and his merry men.

Going back to the leg tying technique, I think this is Pat Repelli trying to copy the late great John Rarey, a man who used to deal with the stallions that 'dominance' obsessed fools had made vicious. Except there was much more to it than simply dropping the horse and John Rarey was very careful who he passed his methods on to - because as we all know a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing in the wrong hands.

I have owned and handled stallions and the last thing they need or respond well to is an ego fuelled bully.

Seems alot of these big name horse trainers are using other peoples horses as guinea pigs for techniques they have not tried. Blinkers? for a rearer? HAHAHAHA Did they then try the egg on head? I tried both with mine years ago..... Turned out all he needed a bit of schooling and a good scutch with a branch plucked from the hedge.

 

[Spudlet]

NH does have is good points I think - being able to read a horses body language is a good thing, and if people learn from a guy in a cowboy hat or a BHS Fellow makes no odds IMO. And I think it's good for people to be open minded about trying new things. And I like the emphasis on groundwork in some NH schools of thought, I think this is often beneficial, and if playing games with the horse leaves the horse mentally stimulated and non-stressed, then why not?

So I am not anti-NH, just don't believe in quick fixes. If horses have a problem with something, there is normally a reason behind that, be it a bad experience or a powerful instinct, and it needs time and patience to overcome them.

Not commenting on this demo because I wasn't there.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Okay, this may be kinda random, but to those of you who are fans of endo ...
.

endospink makes me very uncomfortable-again, not really seeing the need for it.

 

[asterid]

Is it me or do all the parelli followers all sound the same? And they don't think they are brain washed or from a cult??????????

We may rant, but we all don't say the same rehersed speech!

And TnC do you really think that we are all naive to think that we are all just little people on here in the competition world? There are high level competition riders on here! As far as I'm aware the FEI hasn't made parelli a sport!

Do you really think that hobbling a horse and PP's form of twitch are natural? No bloody matter how advanced he maybe and keeps his advanced work secret! It is secret because he is following methods that aren't sodding natural! And you yourself say you dont understand it. Thats encouraging then!

There are plenty of top competition riders who share their techniques that do not involve cruelty!

A girl at my yard has sent her horse off to be parelli backed! God help that horse. I didn't have the heart to explain my opinion. She obviously feels it is a last resort, but she wont be seeing what they are doing to it! The woman that took her horse up said, "ooo, they all look like cowboys!"... Thats because they are! They should be on trading standards lists! or rogue traders!

Honestly, my blood pressure is getting high!

 

[ester]

new-here I think I am open minded about what endo does and find the physiology behind it interesting. He is also working almost exclusively with entire racing colts for whom he is their last chance and owners want a quick fix so I do kind of get that.

There are some colt breaking vids of a comp he did in the US... he didnt get through to the final day as he had taken it too slowly (that was without TAPing them as the judges wouldn't like that)

He has said on one of his video's comments that he believes there is a subtle difference between laying a horse down by tying its leg up... therefore rendering it truely trapped and immobile and having to submit laying them down the way he does it. Whether he is right or not I don't know but I don't like seeing horses with legs tied up.

I suppose I am more open minded about what he does rather than parelli... perhaps partly because I would never even consider trying it myself!

 

[Oldred]

What did they do??

BHS representative phoned FoTH organiser who sent the vet to look at the horse. BHS reported back that the vet had examined the horse, found the lesion on the gum and that the horse would not be used in the demonstration the next day.

 

[Mind4sport]

I watched the Parelli demonstration in the main ring before the Pro Am Dressage. Too be honest, there was less than 100 people in the whole arena watching. I saw nothing to impress or to actually convince me that it was the right way to handle a horse.
Could it be simply:
Carrot stick = lunge whip?
Training line = lunge line?
Rope Halter = head collar?

I watched with an open mind and would suggest that the marketing and terminology is very cleverly designed to ensnare those looking for a kinder way, which may not actually be kinder to the horse, but is kinder to the bankbalance of a few!!

 

[ester]

BHS representative phoned FoTH organiser who sent the vet to look at the horse. BHS reported back that the vet had examined the horse, found the lesion on the gum and that the horse would not be used in the demonstration the next day.

but pat was still allowed to handle the horse outside of the demo arena?

 

[muffinino]

I am sorry to say it is true. If you would like to ring the Festival of the Horse organisers - Alice Bell 02476 858276 she will confirm this. Andrea Jackman, BHS Development Officer 01686 627050 is also aware of the situation. Both acted admirably at the time and I thank them.

What did they do? I don't mean that in an abrasive way, I genuinely don't know

I just...there are no words. How the f*** can anybody, let alone highly experienced professionals, think that damaging a horse's mouth to the point where a vet stops him from being used, is acceptabe? I had no respect for the Parellis to begin with and not much for RW (I witnessed shocking behaviour from him whilst stood in the warm up ring with my scurries at HOYS); now they've gone into negative equity. Not that any of them will give a sh*t amyway but there you go.

Before anybody defends them by harping on about harsh bits being used and mouths being damaged that way, don't bother. That is also unacceptable but this was a demo, one that was supposed to teach people how to handle a horse that already has issues with his head. HTF is damaging his mouth and causing him further pain going to help with this? I know I wasn't there but if this is being confirmed by the organisers, that's good enough for me.

To whom do I complain?

 

[muffinino]

BHS representative phoned FoTH organiser who sent the vet to look at the horse. BHS reported back that the vet had examined the horse, found the lesion on the gum and that the horse would not be used in the demonstration the next day.

Ah, ok, that answers my question. You must have been typing at the same time as me.

I'm so glad that somebody cared about Catwalk's welfare as the lot in the ring clearly didn't give a sh*t.

 

[AmyMay]

To whom do I complain?

Stonleigh organisers and the BHS I guess for starters.

 

[new-here]

endospink makes me very uncomfortable-again, not really seeing the need for it.

Well to be honest, I'm not really seeing the need for your comment either. Since endospink makes you uncomfortable, you're obviously not one of the people I was getting at.

Ester - I can see that you are pretty open minded. I don't like laying a horse down full stop. Rope or reins, it doesn't matter, if my horse wants to lay down for me then he will without me having to make him do it. I really dislike it when people talk about causing a horse to submit. It may be just me, but I'd rather have respect than submission.

What I don't understand is that everyone goes nuts when someone does something wrong, but no one is ready to applaud anyone when something is done correctly.
Lauren Barwick, a Parelli student, won Gold and Silver at the 2008 Paralympics. I don't see any massive threads relating to that?
Pat Parelli does something that you dont agree with and everyone's on here at the drop of a hat.

 

[dingle12]

Im not suprised Rob let it all happen sadly i am suprised he let it happen in public though.

 

[solgabrien]

I don't know much about Parelli - but this sounds awful! I used to look after a VERY headshy polo pony and found that a small handful of food with the bit was the best way for us to bridle her - not ideal, and it still took 2 people but surely easier and less distressing than ropes!!!!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Well to be honest, I'm not really seeing the need for your comment either. Since endospink makes you uncomfortable, you're obviously not one of the people I was getting at.

Ester - I can see that you are pretty open minded. I don't like laying a horse down full stop. Rope or reins, it doesn't matter, if my horse wants to lay down for me then he will without me having to make him do it. I really dislike it when people talk about causing a horse to submit. It may be just me, but I'd rather have respect than submission.

What I don't understand is that everyone goes nuts when someone does something wrong, but no one is ready to applaud anyone when something is done correctly.
Lauren Barwick, a Parelli student, won Gold and Silver at the 2008 Paralympics. I don't see any massive threads relating to that?
Pat Parelli does something that you dont agree with and everyone's on here at the drop of a hat.

I can comment on what the **** I want thanks, it makes me uncomfortable but I didnt dismiss it out of hand. who the **** are you to say my comment isnt warranted-you werent the only person to bring him up?

 

[new-here]

I can comment on what the **** I want thanks, it makes me uncomfortable but I didnt dismiss it out of hand. who the **** are you to say my comment isnt warranted-you werent the only person to bring him up?

Ah, so my comment wasn't needed but yours was? Okay then. Did I say I was the only person to bring him up .. No.

 

[siennamum]

Well to be honest, I'm not really seeing the need for your comment either. Since endospink makes you uncomfortable, you're obviously not one of the people I was getting at.

Ester - I can see that you are pretty open minded. I don't like laying a horse down full stop. Rope or reins, it doesn't matter, if my horse wants to lay down for me then he will without me having to make him do it. I really dislike it when people talk about causing a horse to submit. It may be just me, but I'd rather have respect than submission.

What I don't understand is that everyone goes nuts when someone does something wrong, but no one is ready to applaud anyone when something is done correctly.
Lauren Barwick, a Parelli student, won Gold and Silver at the 2008 Paralympics. I don't see any massive threads relating to that?
Pat Parelli does something that you dont agree with and everyone's on here at the drop of a hat.

WHAT has been done correctly. Please enlighten us.

Someone winning at an event in 2008 doesn't really do it for me tbh. I can come up with hundeds of people who have won stuff right up to date, who wouldn't hit their horses round the head with a piece of metal on a rope, twitch their horses instead of spending a little time uncovering the cause of a problem, force them physically to submit until they are more afraid of the handler than the object of their fear or tying their legs up in rope.

There are to points which I think are being overlooked by supporters of PP, as they are unable to answer them.

1. JG and Petalfred both suggested that in all likelihood the cause of this & other problems is generally physical. Why force a horse to do something when it objects because it hurts. Why not remove the cause of the pain - simples.
2. Why make such a feckin fuss over a horse which doesn't like it's ears being touched (wow, dangerous beast that!). It's no big deal, give it a couple of months of kind handling & it will get over it. What a shambles.

 

[Spudlet]

Hello New-Here. If people feel uncomfortable with something, surely the best reaction is to try and explain why what is being done is ok rather than having a go? Makes you look kind of defensive and like you have something to hide.

I had never heard of this 'endo' thing you talk about, but given your posts so far I think I'll keep it that way!

 

[spaniel]

endoscope maybe??....that irritating thing that gets up your arse.

 

[eahotson]

AMYMAY some people did protest and tried to get the demo stopped.They latter confronted PP and RW.RW said it was Alright by me! PP said it was for the good of the horse!!! I will give the Parellis their due though on 2 counts.One they are upfront about who they are and what they do.I am not sure that ponydentist was.Secondly a lot ofstuff is putup about them but they have never tried to have any threads pulled. A lot ofpeople would.Try an Why do we all hate Robert Whitaker thread.See what happens.

 

[Cedars]

I think I'm going to kick my colt in his knackers next time he looks at a mare. That should make me dominant over him .

Sorry havent got to end of post yet but this made me laugh so much LOL