Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

[TrecInWales]

A really skilled horseman would have been able to correct the behaviour without resorting to gum lines and hobbling, no? But in any case, this kind of problem can be tackled by anyone with patience and a proper understanding of equine behaviour and how horses learn, taking however long it takes. It really isn't rocket science!

We're in agreement that this isn't rocket science. I'm neither familiar with RW nor his team of helpers but considering the value of the stallion it would be sensible to assume a number of others have attempted to correct this behaviour before the Parelli sessions.

Again I agree that trying to rectify such an extreme issue in such a time limited environment was a very poor decision.

 

[siennamum]

OK figured I'd post this so I can get shot down in flames about how cruel I am by the Parelli lot. This is the horse I had serious trouble bridling (including nearly getting knocked out by getting whacked on the head). Its not the best vid in the world due to the light (and the (ex) boyfriend so please excuse him) but surely this way of introducing something slowly and praising what is going well is better than trussing the poor horse up like a chicken!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9BFHlAhzS8

NB: This horse came one leaps and bounds with me and is now 99% perfect with her new owners and is not headshy!

Lovely video. How bizarre is the comparison between what you are doing and what we see on youtube regarding some Parelli advocates and their problem solving.

 

[TrecInWales]

I did not attend, but would be very interested to see a full(er) video. Even without attending the event, there is much that can reasonably be questioned and discussed here.

Due to the content and methods used I doubt a full(er) video will be made available until they publish the session in on of their DVDs with some sort of explanation/justification.

Unfortunately there were so few people at the Festival of the Horse that it's quite believable that there was no-one else there to take videos. The place was graveyard quiet bar those taking part in the competitions (and the Parelli lot of course, and there was not a lot of them until the Sunday).

 

[Natch]

Ok, I wanted to reply to several people, so please excuse how long this is going to be.

tongue~n~cheek

While we ALL want an explanation from pat, we likely will NOT get it. Not here, not on the savvy forum, and not in person. there is just as big an uproar and differing views within our own communtiy as there is outside it. those that understand what he did the best are higher up in the program, and the higher you go, the fewer the numbers. despite what you may think, the program devolps skills of increasing difficulty, and like with any sport, there are fewer at the top than the bottom.

I think you may agree with me when I say, if it is so complicated that only the most advanced of his students can understand it, then surely doing it in front of an audience of the general public isn't the most rational of moves.

I think, as others have said, that several/many/most of us understand the mechanics and psychology of what he did. As far as I can gather, he used something that would cause pain when the horse offered an unwanted behaviour, combined with something which would make it more difficult/impossible for the horse to get away in the first place. He used force and pain to flood the horse with the stimulus (bridle, hand/saddlepad). Having watched the highly edited video we are led to believe that the horse eventually submitted, having tried and exhausted every other option.

I just don't understand why he used those methods, when countless people (some of whom are on here) have achieved the same end result through time, patience and perseverance, and left the horses a lot better off mentally than I feel pat did.

New-here

I can't remember who said it or when it was said, but a few of you have talked about restraining terrified horses (not the exact words, but you get the idea). Now I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can come on here with all these negative comments about Parelli but like this? All I seen in this video was a horse forced in to submission. Did you see how tight he was pulling on that horses bit?

I too can’t believe how many people say they like endo spink’s work – no I’ll re-phrase that – I think most haven’t looked too far into “the tap” method he uses. I like the way he deals with rearers, when he doesn't use "the tap".

Having said that, the tap is an extreme method, used on extreme horses. I would be interested to follow horses he works with, as I am concerned that the psychological impact on the horse is very negative. However, if its a last resort option, then he does at the end of the day appear to provide results.

Endospink also appears to enjoy the showman aspect of his work. Look on his website - he also appears to charge $49.95 so that you can download his video. Remind you of anyone...?

TrecInWales

Obviously if you did not attend (quite a high percentage of the posts here are from such individuals) then you really cannot really add to this discussion in a negative or positive way.

Ridiculous. People can add to a discussion about what is reported to have happened in a cosntructive way. Besides, all the reports say the same facts – its only people’s opinion of those facts that differ.

New-here

If he doesn't back up, then the rythm in the rope causes the clip to smack their chin, yes

.

Other people practicing ground skills use a rope which has a knot (actually, its a loop which the rope threads through to attach it to the halter) to be the weight, not a metal clip, simply because they don’t like a metal clip smacking the horse in the face. I use that, as well as a different ask for back/halt, for that very reason. And the metal clip hitting the horse's face wouldn't be half the issue it is, if all groundskills teachers actually taught people to use their presence, and energy to get things across, rather than waving a rope around wildly with no intention behind it.


Fburton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naturally
Andrew Maclean also said he thought this was an excellent practice.

Knowing Andrew, it surprises me that he would favour the kind of flooding you describe (or any kind for that matter) over progressive desensitization, i.e. exposing a horse to something that's frightening little by little, being careful not to provoke a full-blown flight response, until he relaxes and accept what was initially feared. Can you remember where he said or wrote this?

Forgive me that isn’t a direct quote, but it is the spirit of what he said about it. It was at a lecture demo at Reaseheath college this year. Having been one of several students and members of staff (qualified, experienced etc) who discussed it afterwards, it wasn’t just me who understood that to be what he meant, nor just me who disagreed with several things he said and did (he did a demo after the lecture), although there were good points too. He strikes me as a man who has got so caught up in the science of it that he has maybe neglected the “feel” of true horsemanship.

peteralfred

horses often buck because they are in pain-have all these horses been worked up to check for that

I too would be interested to know if the horse pat worked with was checked to be free from pain.

 

[SirenaXVI]

What I don't understand is that everyone goes nuts when someone does something wrong, but no one is ready to applaud anyone when something is done correctly.
Lauren Barwick, a Parelli student, won Gold and Silver at the 2008 Paralympics. I don't see any massive threads relating to that?
Pat Parelli does something that you dont agree with and everyone's on here at the drop of a hat.

Possibly because there was no horse abuse involved? Of course we are going to go nuts if someone does something wrong and a horse suffers because of it, especially when that person holds themselves up as an expert! There was just as much of an outcry against Rolkur.

 

[muffinino]

Due to the content and methods used I doubt a full(er) video will be made available until they publish the session in on of their DVDs with some sort of explanation/justification.

Unfortunately there were so few people at the Festival of the Horse that it's quite believable that there was no-one else there to take videos. The place was graveyard quiet bar those taking part in the competitions (and the Parelli lot of course, and there was not a lot of them until the Sunday).

How very convenient.

So, we may get an explanation for why this horse was taken into an arena under lights to work on a very serious problem that was presumably causing him and the grooms problems in the much calmer, familier surroundings of home in order to find a quick cure and worked to the point where a vet would not allow him to be used the next day. But only if we pay for it.

Marvellous.

 

[cefyl]

The H&H news headlines today give the story of Michael Morrissey and the 3 months suspension for whip use. Remember the Christine Wells case in Germany? Blue tongue and Rolkur debate. Why no "official" action against LP for what amounts to the same kind of "beating" to a part blind horse, ditto this supposed abuse of Catwalk in public. Is it because they are deemed "natural horsemen / women" and therefore for the most part it is acceptable? I do not dispute that much of their work and calmer methods are beneficial but also for a long time stories have been emerging about some other questionable means of bringing about submission to their equine subjects.

The video of Catwalk on days 1 / 2 and .... posted on youtube by the Parelli camp are dodgey, too much time lapse, the horse (as someone else has pointed out) at one clip looks doped, PP's body language and facial hue looks like he has just gone 10 rounds with Mike Tyson. In the end they really have not achieved any more than most good horsemen would have done in the first place with just time and patience by getting part of a bridle on bit by bit, only they have used extreme force and a controller headcollar (which can be useful not doubt).

 

[KS1]

Can I just highlight the section where you say you were 'appalled' that you saw Monty Roberts using a bucking strap in the same way as Pat Parelli.
He certainly DOES NOT put rope into the horses mouths - he actually ties it from the saddle to the head piece of the bridle so that the horse cannot lower his head to allow him to buck.
Mr Roberts is not even in the same league as this plonker (putting it mildly)[/QUOTE

The bucking strap is put into the horses mouth, it attaches fron the pommel of the saddle to the poll down to the horses mouth and across the horses top gum then back up the other side to the poll back to the pommel. Monty Roberts even described how it fitted and how it worked.

As the horse goes to lower its head the strap tightens across the horses gum obviously causing pain, eventually the horse learns bucking causes the pain, oh and MR never removed the strap yet seemed pleased the rider could mount the horse and ride it. I'd have liked to see the horse ridden without the stap.

So yes MR clearly explained how the strap was fitted and it 100% went over the horses gum.

 

[KS1]

Agree with the above, I have been to a demonstration by Monty Roberts and he certainly did not put anything in the horses mouth , it was tied to the saddle!

As I mentioned in my first post about this I clearly said the line went across the gum line, who said anything about it going in the horses mouth,, certainly not me,, your putting words in here that was never mentioned...

and though it may not cause damge as MR says it certainly causes pain. the only difference I see is that he ties the string to the back of the saddle where as at the demo I was at he tied it to the pommel.

 

[posie_honey]

i'm loving this thread - i'm not overly for or against different methods of horsemanship - i use what works for me and dismiss bits i don't like the sound of within all sorts of mothods and really work with what works with the horse in front of me - but i've been shocked by this simply becuase it appears to go against his general ethos - and loving the responses from T~I~C - how refreshing to get a level haeded and calm response - thank you

but was a gum strap actually used - its been questioned a lot - so anyone who was there - was one def used in this instance or is that just hear-say?

 

[Hermosa]

Go to the parelli youtube page and watch the video of Pat with Catwalk.

 

[AmyMay]

Go to the parelli youtube page and watch the video of Pat with Catwalk.

Most of us have. Have you a point??

 

[Echo Bravo]

I just wish the man and his wife would go back to America and stay there. To be honest the American way of life is far different from our way of life and we treat our animals differant too. My brother from California was very surprised to see 2 riders going pass my house on the road,seems they have Dude Ranches and Trails to ride on and the hay they feed, to me is straw that I'd bed my horses on.

 

[Teddybully]

Why no "official" action against LP for what amounts to the same kind of "beating" to a part blind horse, ditto this supposed abuse of Catwalk in public. Is it because they are deemed "natural horsemen / women" and therefore for the most part it is acceptable?

Yes and also because we don't 'understand' the methods and therefore we can't really know what is going on.

When I see a person hitting a horse I see a horse being abused. Same as if I see someone hitting a child or a dog. To then be told I don't 'understand' what I am seeing is extremely condescending.

Why can the Parellis make their own rules up?

Just had a look at their site and anyone who can flog a carrot stick for £40 and a rope for £60 must know they are onto a good thing. I see they have also trade marked the word 'Horsenality' (yes, your horses personality) it just goes on and on...

 

[fburton]

Due to the content and methods used I doubt a full(er) video will be made available until they publish the session in on of their DVDs with some sort of explanation/justification.

Unfortunately there were so few people at the Festival of the Horse that it's quite believable that there was no-one else there to take videos. The place was graveyard quiet bar those taking part in the competitions (and the Parelli lot of course, and there was not a lot of them until the Sunday).

Thanks for the additional info which confirms what I suspected. If there had been a large audience there and several people had videoed it, I think a version would turn up on YouTube soon enough.

 

[Aces_High]

The horse had full blinkers covering his eyes I'm sure?? No wonder it went backwards

They are called pacifiers. A lot of horses in Australia have them on for trackwork and race in them. Choisir who came over from Australia and won the Kings Stand and Golden Jubilee and was then 2nd in the July Cup raced in them.

 

[fburton]

I think you may agree with me when I say, if it is so complicated that only the most advanced of his students can understand it, then surely doing it in front of an audience of the general public isn't the most rational of moves.

I agree (and with pretty much all of what you wrote).

I just don't understand why he used those methods, when countless people (some of whom are on here) have achieved the same end result through time, patience and perseverance, and left the horses a lot better off mentally than I feel pat did.

... especially this.

Having said that, the tap is an extreme method, used on extreme horses. I would be interested to follow horses he works with, as I am concerned that the psychological impact on the horse is very negative. However, if its a last resort option, then he does at the end of the day appear to provide results.

Yup, I don't like The Tap either. I am horrified by how many people have decided it's a neat trick to play on their own, non-problem horses, as evidenced by videos and comments posted to YouTube. However, I grudgingly accept that it may be useful as a method of last resort in the hands of a professional - but that does not justify selling the details of the method to all and sundry who will use it for heaven knows what.

Forgive me that isn’t a direct quote, but it is the spirit of what he said about it. It was at a lecture demo at Reaseheath college this year. Having been one of several students and members of staff (qualified, experienced etc) who discussed it afterwards, it wasn’t just me who understood that to be what he meant, nor just me who disagreed with several things he said and did (he did a demo after the lecture), although there were good points too. He strikes me as a man who has got so caught up in the science of it that he has maybe neglected the “feel” of true horsemanship.

No problem - thanks for the clarification. I still can't help feeling Andrew's view on this was miscommunicated. I know he recommends strongly against treatment that leads to learned helplessness, so it seems odd that he should promote use of flooding - especially the wheat-box! I understand what you're getting at in your last sentence though.

 

[talkinghorse]

pretty sure I have seen youtube vids with monty using the leg tie technique to break horses in …

Monty Roberts would never and has never tied up a horse's leg. This, sacking out and swinging from a post, was one of the practices that he disagreed with his father about.

When the film the Horse Whisperer was being made, he withdrew his support when the director insisted that the hero, whose character Nicholas Evans had developed after working with Monty, was required in the script to tie up a horse's leg and lay the horse down.

Monty will not inflict discomfort on a horse to get him to act out a behaviour he wants. He will use a buckstopper in very rare and extreme cases, where a bucking horse is about to lose its life or kill someone else. In this case Monty fits the buck stopper, it is loose, the horse inflicts the pressure momentarily if it tries to buck. He gives a very full explanation of how it works in From My Hands to Yours.

Monty dedicates his time to taking violence out of the lives of people and horses. The money he raises goes into an eductional charity to help people learn a none violent way to co-exist with their horse.

Monty's methods set clear boundaries for behaviour and teach clear methods to achieve them. Violence (excessive use of force to initiate or respond to a behaviour) is never permitted. I can't find similar things to say about Parelli as I haven't studied it.

All I have seen indicates that if the horse exhibits an unacceptable behaviour Monty's methods would permit punishment (tugging the rope, for example) but do not permit any form of violent assault on the horse in order to get him to achieve a behaviour. I have seen both Pat and Linda Parelli hit horses to get the behaviour they want. That to me, as a Monty Roberts student and observer of Parelli, is the difference that makes me reject Parelli and be the proud holder of the Monty Roberts Preliminary Certificate of Horsemanship.

Monty must be so sad that a former student is now using the methods his father used, that Monty abhors and has fought to change.

 

[Crackerz]

I keep coming back to this post, i feel compelled to reply, but not entirely sure what to say?

I'm sickened. Totally sickened. A number of my friends witnessed around 2 hours of the demo before having to leave through protest, with a young girl in tears after witnessing a clearly upset horse. Great education for impressionable people hey.....

Those patronising people that have said 'you can't see what we see' - Get stuffed. I've dealt with many a horse/pony labelled dangerous/evil/bolshy without resorting to pain.

Simply taking in everything a horse does, every little movement around you, their body language within a herd, and everything like that. I could spend hours learning from my horses from watching them in a herd - i've learnt more from that than i could a DVD...




Edited to add.... i have a dislike for Monty too, after witnessing a buckstopper (which DOES go across the gum) in a demo 10/11 years ago. It ended up very bloody and upset many people. Along with a horse he taught to load 'within a demo'. Yeh right, he'd been working with it for over an hour before and on and off the lorry - it was my friends pony!!!

 

[Blue2006]

I went to Stonleigh Park on Saturday with a friend and we attended the Parelli Demo in the evening. There was a brief discussion about what had happened with Robert Whittaker's horse but in very general terms but I am relieved I did not witness what went on. With regard to Parelli himself I wanted to walk out within five minutes of him walking in the arena. As far as I was concerned it was the cult of Parelli and it was more about massaging his ego than what was being demonstrated. Not impressed by the guy at all and lets face it, if we all carried a lunge whip every time we were with our horses on the ground, I think we would pretty much get them to do what we wanted!! Absolute rubbish people, save your money.

 

[spaniel]

The H&H news headlines today give the story of Michael Morrissey and the 3 months suspension for whip use. Remember the Christine Wells case in Germany? Blue tongue and Rolkur debate. Why no "official" action against LP for what amounts to the same kind of "beating" to a part blind horse, ditto this supposed abuse of Catwalk in public. Is it because they are deemed "natural horsemen / women" and therefore for the most part it is acceptable? ).

Most likely because they are 'corporations' and have the ability/funds to drag anyone who questions them through the Courts. An individual is much less likely to do that so is the easier target.

 

[AmyMay]

A number of my friends witnessed around 2 hours of the demo before having to leave through protest

Did you speak to any officials at the time about your concerns Crackerz??

 

[R2R]

I have scanned through this thread and am appalled by what seems to have gone on.

I think the saying goes:

“Tell a gelding, ask a mare, and discuss with a stallion”

Any stallion I have met has always had to have a discussion and come to his own conclusions about things. I feel terrible for RW’s poor stallion and question why common sense hasnt been used in this instance.

Not really sure what to say other than it sounds like there are reasons far beyond Parelli for Catwalks behaviour – as in far deeper routed.

Poor pony.

 

[Crackerz]

I wasn't there, and i believe they didn't, no. More interested in taking the childs mind off things i guess!

 

[AmyMay]

I wasn't there, and i believe they didn't, no. More interested in taking the childs mind off things i guess!

That's a real shame, because often is the immediate action that gets positive responses.

 

[Crackerz]

That's a real shame, because often is the immediate action that gets positive responses.

Very true. I may prompt them to complain though?

 

[KS1]

I loved the wording "Parelli Police" made by Tongue in Cheek, it does sum these people up perfectly. I have in the past put forward a view that went against their principles and got a right ear bashing.

There is a lot that I have learned through PNH that has helped me understand my horses better and changed myself for the better but there are issues that I have not agreed with and when questioned I have never received a clear and explanatory reply.

I ponder on "Why can't anyone give me a good answer to my questions".

Off topic but bear with me here...


When the Succes was released I thought it was a waste of money and sold all but two of the DVD's,. Then the patterns came out, someone during a workshop asked "Do you need to know the 7 games to play the patterns" The answer was no...

At Stoneleigh on Friday I mentioned this to one of the 3*Instructors who told me that Pat originally thought people would learn the 7 games through playing the patterns but then realised he was wrong which was one reason why the new 1-4 level were released.

Why then was this not admitted to us publically?

So why am I sayign this....?

What I would like to know is when things go smoothly or not Pat, Linda, the team and a high % of parelli Students will not admit to wrong doings. They come across as thinking everything they do is right when it is a known fact that everything in todays world has flaws.

I still haven't posted on the Savvy Site or FB as I know I will get an ear bashing and I can't be bothered with it.

I also mind found in the past I have been attacked on H&H for following PNH so for along time avoided posting on any topic relating to PNH.

However this long and interesting thread is a joy to read and join in.

Keep the posts flowing and if anyone has any further info on Catwalk I'd love to read about it.

 

[Hovis_and_SidsMum]

I have been holding off posting on this thread but have decided to add my two penneth worth.
I didn't see the demo in question as I didn't attend the event but from eye witness accounts it sounds horrific.
After reading all the arguements here i am not going to go into the fact it sounds like totally over the top horse cruelty.
My bigger concern is the message it and other Parelli demos give novice horse owners. I have no doubt that around the world methods that look just as cruel are used with great success - but they are used by experienced and gifted horsement and women. Not someone who has paid their £X to watch a demo and then who goes home and thinks "I'll have a crack at that with my slightly fidgety horse".
Think it doesn't happen? Think again. I was on a yard where a totally inexperienced and out and out novice bought a ex racer which she never even saw ridden. The horse was totally loopy - to the extent of having no thought for its own saftey let alone anyone around it.
Cue one trip to a two day parelli course later and I haven't enough words to describe the sort of thing that went on.
Needless to say none of it worked, my husband had to rescue the owner from being nearly killed by the horse going demented in its stable and then shortly after the owner wa sinjured by said horse. It was sold to supposedly another "parelli" home where no doubt they continued to bash the remains of its brains out with an orange stick.
I don't agree in any way with what was described as happening on friday night but maybe I am slightly squeamish about seeing a stressed and unhappy horse. Maybe in extreme case these methods have their place. But that place is NOT in front of a crowd of impressionable and uneducated members of the public.

 

[amandap]

The accounts of PP working with Catwalk at this Demo sound horrific and imo unacceptable.

To change tack slightly I've been pondering 'owner' resonsibility in this instance.
I expect most of us have been in a situation when we were unhappy with how a 'professional' was dealing with our horse and gaining the courage to speak out and stop things is not always straightforward.
I've been wondering what the Whittikers thinking about all this is and whether they wished to call a halt to the Demo but felt unable due to unknown constraints or whether they found it acceptable???

I think we should all learn from this that we must try and find the courage to speak out for our horses when we feel they are being treated unfairly, roughly etc. etc.
I of course have no idea what the Whittikers were thinking or feeling but I hope I would have had the courage to shout stop if I were the owner/carer in this re told scenario.

It is my view that in the end the owner/carer is ultimately responsible for the horses care and training as well as it's mental welbeing so I think we must stop just putting up with stuff we believe is wrong or detrimental to our horses just because someone 'knows better' or is more experienced etc.

 

[SophieRIDSH]

I just wish the man and his wife would go back to America and stay there. To be honest the American way of life is far different from our way of life and we treat our animals differant too. My brother from California was very surprised to see 2 riders going pass my house on the road,seems they have Dude Ranches and Trails to ride on and the hay they feed, to me is straw that I'd bed my horses on.

LOL, CA is a big and varied state, in a very big and varied country. And in America we have many different styles of riding and training, some much better than others.

The Parellies are certainly NOT universally admired here. PLEASE do not lump all American horsenem with them.


Sigh they are going to have a big presence at the WEG