Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

PPF&Proud said:
But PonyDentist isn't commenting on them or their methods. You are. If he/she was commenting on eventing, then your questions are reasonable. As it is, they don't make sense.
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No Ponydentist is questioning Martlin's horse experience and then throws Parelli based questions at her, insinuating that because she does not worship Parelli then she is not worth listening to.

I just asked him dressage based questions to demonstrate a point:rolleyes:
 
ponydentist said:
Ok Martlin.

What are your views on this? were you there/ did you see? What is your understanding of the methodss, techniques and equipment used on that evening? what is your personal experience with horses....how many horses have you had personal and hands on experience with? How many horsemanship clinics have you attended personally....both in the UK and other countries? Who were the trainers invvolved? What is your knowledge of the work of Dr Robert Miller?

Sits back and waits.
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She doesn't have to give you an explanation. It's not HER expertise that's being questioned. It wasn't HER videod roping up a horse into submission. It wasn't HER waving a rope in a one-eyed horse's face and clunking it on the face with a clip. It's not her telling everyone who doesn't DO Parelli that they don't love their horses and their horses don't love them. Or that their way is the ONLY way. There are a LOT of people who have reacted with everything from horror, to disgust and fawning admiration for PP's treatment of Catwalk and they are entitled to respond and give an opinion. You just refuse to accept that a LOT of them (I include myself, but sorry, am not about to send you my CV for your approval) know what they're talking about. And the fact is that freedom of speech exists and we're all entitled to use it. No one's stopping you, are they?
 
Well said PPF& Proud.

I started this thread nto ask for THOSE WHO WERE AT THE DEMO.....to discuss their thoughts on what went on because i had a feeling that some of them would have only been able to see to the end of their noses.......Yep....appears am right.

Withc hunters......maybe when you catch him u'll dip him in the water and if he drowns he wasnt a witch....and if he survrives he is to be burned at the stake.

Im sick of all the narrow minded snidy little commments being made on here and the uneducated accusations of abuse and cruelty should not and may very well not be tolorated.

How many of you have ever watched stallions fight when fighting for supremacy?? What do they try to to do to each others legs??/ in particular the foreleg?? What is the thing a horse treasures most (body part) and what part of the body are horse most reluctant to let anyone or anything touch, handle or incapcitate???? Are we getting there yet anyone???? Any lights comming on in empty heads??/
 
ponydentist said:
Ok Martlin.

What are your views on this? were you there/ did you see? What is your understanding of the methodss, techniques and equipment used on that evening? what is your personal experience with horses....how many horses have you had personal and hands on experience with? How many horsemanship clinics have you attended personally....both in the UK and other countries? Who were the trainers invvolved? What is your knowledge of the work of Dr Robert Miller?

Sits back and waits.
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My views on this are that the whole incident was bad taste and unnecessary, one could argue nearly professional suicide. The risk of injury itself should be enough not to go down this route. Even if you consider term 'abuse' relative and subject to opinion.
I wasn't there.
I've seen restricted amount of video evidence and have read eye witness accounts on here.
My understanding of methods and techniques used is adequate.
I'm a professional horseperson, will leave it at that, I don't wish to divulge my identity on this forum.
I have had experience (personal, hands on) with several hundreds of horses.
I have attended a few horsemanship clinics, none in UK.
The 'trainers' involved where qualified equine behaviourists.
I am not familiar with dr Robert Miller.

I've answered your questions, however I don't feel it was necessary in order for me to a) have an opinion and b) feel offended by your post - both previous and this one.
 
The Parellis don't say that there's is the only way. They say this is our way. I've taken a little look around some of the other threads, and am amazed at the contradictions there are.

Take a quick look at the "have you ever had to give up on a horse" thread and read how these experienced horsepeople have given up and sold their difficult horses when they "didn't gell", "weren't fun anymore". "downright dangerous" etc etc etc.

Maybe they should try a little Parelli before giving up so easily. One of them gives their horse a week. Wonder how many they got through?
 
peteralfred said:
They're he're.





(Poltergeist reference :p )
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Blimey only took them a few days.


And just to add this in for the parelli followers that deem the events acceptable...

To quote the Farm Animal Welfare Advisory Council's Animal welfare guidelines for horses ponies and donkeys.

THE FIVE FREEDOMS CONCEPT
3. Freedom from *pain*, *injury* and disease ... There have been quotes from vets stating the horse DID indeed recieve an injury and trust me a gum line / commanche twitch FAR from comfortable in the horses mouth especially when it is being hauled on.

4. Freedom to express normal patterns of behaviour
5. Freedom from fear and distress

I need say no more to those who have common sence and an open mind when watching the videos previously posted.
 
ponydentist said:
How many of you have ever watched stallions fight when fighting for supremacy?? What do they try to to do to each others legs??/ in particular the foreleg?? What is the thing a horse treasures most (body part) and what part of the body are horse most reluctant to let anyone or anything touch, handle or incapcitate???? Are we getting there yet anyone???? Any lights comming on in empty heads??/
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They go for legs yes, but they most certainly do not stuff ropes under each others lips.
On the other hand, at no time in the video clips, did Catwalk behave like a stallion, ready to fight PP for supremacy, so what is your point?
I personally think you need to talk/write to people, with the respect, you recond(sp) PP deserves and not sound so patronising, it is not becoming.

Sorry if none of this made no sense.
 
Salem witch hunt was based on the lies of a couple of silly girls, and grew into murdering innocent people. Bit more than smoke and mirrors. The comments on here reminded me of that.
 
PPF&Proud said:
The Parellis don't say that there's is the only way. They say this is our way. I've taken a little look around some of the other threads, and am amazed at the contradictions there are.

Take a quick look at the "have you ever had to give up on a horse" thread and read how these experienced horsepeople have given up and sold their difficult horses when they "didn't gell", "weren't fun anymore". "downright dangerous" etc etc etc.

Maybe they should try a little Parelli before giving up so easily. One of them gives their horse a week. Wonder how many they got through?
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Ok, a genuine question. Actually questions.
Do you think that Catwalk's briding issues could've been handled differently? Over more time, for instance, gradually introducing him to the bridle. Or do you think that Pat handled the situation the best way possible?
If you think that Catwalk's issues could've been dealt with differently, over weeks rather than hours or days, don't you think that THAT's the example he should have set?
BTW, I've sold horses that turned out just not to be what I was looking for. They went to very good homes. What's the crime in that?
 
Human's will never be seen as a horse, irregardless of how hard we try to 'mimic' their ways. We are humans in flesh blood look and scent, same as they are horses in flesh blood look and scent.

Metal clips to mimic 'biting', gum lines to mimic endorphin release from an attack, leg pulling to mimic how they fight.....load of nonsense to me. Lights are on and working, but no way has it ever inspired me to work horses this way as an amiable means of training. Personally. I've dabbled at Parelli a few years back and had practitioners at college who came every week, however, tried and tested and did not agree with it nor was it of any interest to me to put into training methods, personally.

Edited - Doesn't make me judge others who do practice forms of PH. Horses for courses. If it works for you and lets you enjoy your horse, then good! What horses are meant to be for at the end of the day, a thing of leisure, passion and hobby.
 
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How many of you have ever watched Ceaser Millan.....the dog whisperer??/


Who has ever seen him take a dog which will not back down and put it on its back in a submissive posture and place his fingers into its throat and hold it there for a time??? CRuel man......hes Abusing that dog.......report him ..

Who says that Catwalks leg was hobbled above the knee as a restraint??? restraint for what?? at NO TIME during the short moments that the leg was temporarily incapacitated in this manner was any attempt made to put a bridle or anything else on the horse. the trainer stood back from the horse....gave him time to adjust to the situation which he did without ANY stress, fear or anxiety (he lowered the held up leg to the floor for a split second. In his mind the leg was gone or totally useless and that was it....accepted end of.....when the trainer realised that the horse had acceoted this....hey resto he flipped a rope and the horse had his leg given back to him....can anyone see the pyscology involved??? How was this seen as RESTRAINT....restraing to do WHAT?? it wasnt done in that context.....this was a master horseman using techniques with well grounded and researched methodology to ask a horse to start thinking in its limted capacity to think. Remember horses live totally in the here and now....they have no forward thought...but do have excellent long and short term memory processing ability.They have to learn much quicker than a lot of animals....or die. Any lights comming on yet??

Other use of the rope during other parts of the demo were also thought provoking tried and tested and sucessfull methods which cause absolute minimum impact to the horse welfare.
 
Binky01 said:
Human's will never be seen as a horse, irregardless of how hard we try to 'mimic' their ways. We are humans in flesh blood look and scent, same as they are horses in flesh blood look and scent.

Metal clips to mimic 'biting', gum lines to mimic endorphin release from an attack, leg pulling to mimic how they fight.....load of nonsense to me. Lights are on and working, but no way has it ever inspired me to work horses this way as an amiable means of training. Personally. I've dabbled at Parelli a few years back and had practitioners at college who came every week, however, tried and tested and did not agree with it nor was it of any interest to me to put into training methods, personally.
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A few days ago PD said that the horse had his leg tied up to make him feel that he was going to die.... He said that was the theory behind the techinique. I honestly cannot see how anyone can feel that that is the right theing to do to ANY horse and that it is not abuse!
 
ponydentist said:
How many of you have ever watched Ceaser Millan.....the dog whisperer??/


Who has ever seen him take a dog which will not back down and put it on its back in a submissive posture and place his fingers into its throat and hold it there for a time??? CRuel man......hes Abusing that dog.......report him ..

Who says that Catwalks leg was hobbled above the knee as a restraint??? restraint for what?? at NO TIME during the short moments that the leg was temporarily incapacitated in this manner was any attempt made to put a bridle or anything else on the horse. the trainer stood back from the horse....gave him time to adjust to the situation which he did without ANY stress, fear or anxiety (he lowered the held up leg to the floor for a split second. In his mind the leg was gone or totally useless and that was it....accepted end of.....when the trainer realised that the horse had acceoted this....hey resto he flipped a rope and the horse had his leg given back to him....can anyone see the pyscology involved??? How was this seen as RESTRAINT....restraing to do WHAT?? it wasnt done in that context.....this was a master horseman using techniques with well grounded and researched methodology to ask a horse to start thinking in its limted capacity to think. Remember horses live totally in the here and now....they have no forward thought...but do have excellent long and short term memory processing ability.They have to learn much quicker than a lot of animals....or die. Any lights comming on yet??

Other use of the rope during other parts of the demo were also thought provoking tried and tested and sucessfull methods which cause absolute minimum impact to the horse welfare.
Click to expand...

Ceaser Milan has been investigated for his handleing techniques and many people dont like the way he handles dogs there are many youtube video clips of him too but thats a whole other story.
 
ponydentist said:
Well said PPF& Proud.

I started this thread nto ask for THOSE WHO WERE AT THE DEMO.....to discuss their thoughts on what went on because i had a feeling that some of them would have only been able to see to the end of their noses.......Yep....appears am right.

Withc hunters......maybe when you catch him u'll dip him in the water and if he drowns he wasnt a witch....and if he survrives he is to be burned at the stake.

Im sick of all the narrow minded snidy little commments being made on here and the uneducated accusations of abuse and cruelty should not and may very well not be tolorated.

How many of you have ever watched stallions fight when fighting for supremacy?? What do they try to to do to each others legs??/ in particular the foreleg?? What is the thing a horse treasures most (body part) and what part of the body are horse most reluctant to let anyone or anything touch, handle or incapcitate???? Are we getting there yet anyone???? Any lights comming on in empty heads??/
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Unfortunately, or fortunately perhaps, when you start a thread on public forum, you can't choose who is going to respond.
Now you have repeatedly told us we have empty heads, are uneducated, narrow minded, snidey, witch hunters... I wonder what that says about you?
 
galaxy23 said:
A few days ago PD said that the horse had his leg tied up to make him feel that he was going to die.... He said that was the theory behind the techinique. I honestly cannot see how anyone can feel that that is the right theing to do to ANY horse and that it is not abuse!
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With the greatest respect to all concerned, only Pat Parelli can explain why he did what he did in the Catwalk demo, and until that explanation is forthcoming, any speculation in this respect is, at best, unhelpful.
 
don't care for Caesar Milan either. the use of the word dominance and the understanding of what it is and isnt, is about 20 years out fo date with current behavioural and learning theory when used by the likes of Parelli and Milan. While neither are totally without skill, that comes from years of experience-something lacking in the novice types they teach. alpha rolling certain dogs for example, could be very dangerous to the owner if they chose the wrong dog (without actually going downt he road of it being wrong).
 
While I agree alpha rolling is not for everyone or every dog, thanks for giving me the opportunity to say that I get a bit bored of posters who only come into the dogs section of the forum to slag Cesar Milan off, and despite boasting about how they are great at training all sorts of dogs, never post ANY advice, good or bad, in that section of the forum, when people come on to ask about problems.

You can draw your own parallel(i)s......
 
PPF&Proud said:
Salem witch hunt was based on the lies of a couple of silly girls, and grew into murdering innocent people. Bit more than smoke and mirrors. The comments on here reminded me of that.
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My point was that the girls used lies together with smoke and mirrors to get their own way - a little like Mr P, not that I am for a moment insinuating the murder bit! In any case the girls did not commit the burnings, they did, however engineer them.
 
ponydentist said:
How many of you have ever watched Ceaser Millan.....the dog whisperer??/


Who has ever seen him take a dog which will not back down and put it on its back in a submissive posture and place his fingers into its throat and hold it there for a time??? CRuel man......hes Abusing that dog.......report him ..

Who says that Catwalks leg was hobbled above the knee as a restraint??? restraint for what?? at NO TIME during the short moments that the leg was temporarily incapacitated in this manner was any attempt made to put a bridle or anything else on the horse. the trainer stood back from the horse....gave him time to adjust to the situation which he did without ANY stress, fear or anxiety (he lowered the held up leg to the floor for a split second. In his mind the leg was gone or totally useless and that was it....accepted end of.....when the trainer realised that the horse had acceoted this....hey resto he flipped a rope and the horse had his leg given back to him....can anyone see the pyscology involved??? How was this seen as RESTRAINT....restraing to do WHAT?? it wasnt done in that context.....this was a master horseman using techniques with well grounded and researched methodology to ask a horse to start thinking in its limted capacity to think. Remember horses live totally in the here and now....they have no forward thought...but do have excellent long and short term memory processing ability.They have to learn much quicker than a lot of animals....or die. Any lights comming on yet??

Other use of the rope during other parts of the demo were also thought provoking tried and tested and sucessfull methods which cause absolute minimum impact to the horse welfare.
Click to expand...

Whoops not a good analogy, his methods have also been called into question :rolleyes:
 
Golf Girl said:
With the greatest respect to all concerned, only Pat Parelli can explain why he did what he did in the Catwalk demo, and until that explanation is forthcoming, any speculation in this respect is, at best, unhelpful.
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Weeell, if he's giving a demonstration of his techniques, isn't the point to explain? And if we are all guilty of a 'misunderstanding' why is there no explanation forthcoming? Surely this would be the way of settling everyone's grievances? Does he think he's above explaining as we're all too ignorant to understand? If so, as I asked in a previous post, surely he should be demonstrating the techniques the spectators CAN understand and put into practice themselves without running the risk of hurting themselves or the horse (because you CAN see how this could've happened, can't you?)
 
Golf Girl said:
With the greatest respect to all concerned, only Pat Parelli can explain why he did what he did in the Catwalk demo, and until that explanation is forthcoming, any speculation in this respect is, at best, unhelpful.
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So you did not understand it either then, but in the spirit of PNH you are just going to accept it was the right thing to do? Genuine question btw
 
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