Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

Ahh......Hallelujha.

People are starting to think.

Other use of the rope in that demo included the fixing of a rope atatched to the HALTER...and then to the horses LEG (remember the importance of legs and feet here when training horses...think "footfall" as considered in classical riding techniques)...at two points at seperate stages...above the knee first....then below the knee.

Can anyone tell me what the theroy behind the use of a standing martigale and a running martingale......does a running martingale not often involve putting pressure on the horses tongue???....one of the most domineering techniques involved in any form of horsetraining. Are these gadgets not forms of restraint employed to PREVENT a horse from lifting its head above a certain position??? Isnt that "prevention of freedom to display normal behaviour"?? Would not the sme thing but not used on the tongue be preferable??
Anymore lights comming on yet.
I make no appology for my manner here. I started this thread and asked for sensible discussions.....from open minded people who were there.......not unfounded accusations of abuse and cruelty from tunnel visioned narrow minded witch hunters.

I didnt ask for your views on Parelli Natural horsemanship. Look at my earlier posts posted last Sunday to see my experience and where im comming from ....Ive been....Ive seen and Ive handeled thousands and thousands of horses.
 
Pops head above parapet.

Ok Ponydentist. I've seen 2 Monty Roberts demos in the Uk and have been to the Illinois Horsefest where i got to see Linda tellington Jones, Gawani Pony boy and Chris Cox in action.
I have a ticket to see Andrew McLean next month.

Am I entitled to an opinion? If so, please hear my disgust at the video i have viewed on Youtube.
 
I have not read all of the comments but i get the idea...sigh...i live in England and am American...these things frustrate me to no end. Those of us that are raised with the culture of true horsemanship and not manufactured stuff really get upset with all the hype around marketing. I ASK YOU NOT TO BE DISMAYED BY ALL THE MARKETING THAT IS INVOLVED WITH TRUE HORSEMANSHIP FOR THE SAFETY OF BOTH THE EQUINE AND HUMAN. I am frustrated by the people that have loads of money that come over here and decide they can make a statement...please know that what i myself have been taught by my mentors of many many years ago works and is NOT american rubbish.
 
CaveCanem said:
While I agree alpha rolling is not for everyone or every dog, thanks for giving me the opportunity to say that I get a bit bored of posters who only come into the dogs section of the forum to slag Cesar Milan off, and despite boasting about how they are great at training all sorts of dogs, never post ANY advice, good or bad, in that section of the forum, when people come on to ask about problems.

You can draw your own parallel(i)s......
Click to expand...


have I done that? I may have said I don't agree with his methods (I don't remember) as I can't remember the last time I was in the dog forum! :)
 
ponydentist said:
Ahh......Hallelujha.

People are starting to think.

Other use of the rope in that demo included the fixing of a rope atatched to the HALTER...and then to the horses LEG (remember the importance of legs and feet here when training horses...think "footfall" as considered in classical riding techniques)...at two points at seperate stages...above the knee first....then below the knee.

Can anyone tell me what the theroy behind the use of a standing martigale and a running martingale......does a running martingale not often involve putting pressure on the horses tongue???....one of the most domineering techniques involved in any form of horsetraining. Are these gadgets not forms of restraint employed to PREVENT a horse from lifting its head above a certain position??? Isnt that "prevention of freedom to display normal behaviour"?? Would not the sme thing but not used on the tongue be preferable??
Anymore lights comming on yet.
I make no appology for my manner here. I started this thread and asked for sensible discussions.....from open minded people who were there.......not unfounded accusations of abuse and cruelty from tunnel visioned narrow minded witch hunters.

I didnt ask for your views on Parelli Natural horsemanship. Look at my earlier posts posted last Sunday to see my experience and where im comming from ....Ive been....Ive seen and Ive handeled thousands and thousands of horses.
Click to expand...

Is no one going to anwer my questions? And please don't deflect. The discussion here is not about martingales. Perhaps you could start a different thread about that?
 
SandiAustin said:
I have not read all of the comments but i get the idea...sigh...i live in England and am American...these things frustrate me to no end. Those of us that are raised with the culture of true horsemanship and not manufactured stuff really get upset with all the hype around marketing. I ASK YOU NOT TO BE DISMAYED BY ALL THE MARKETING THAT IS INVOLVED WITH TRUE HORSEMANSHIP FOR THE SAFETY OF BOTH THE EQUINE AND HUMAN. I am frustrated by the people that have loads of money that come over here and decide they can make a statement...please know that what i myself have been taught by my mentors of many many years ago works and is NOT american rubbish.
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SandiAustin, thankyou so much for this! I was getting pretty dismayed over feeling that 'American is Better' and basically, it's just all good ole fashioned horse stuff at the end of the day! :D
 
Originally Posted by Golf Girl View Post
With the greatest respect to all concerned, only Pat Parelli can explain why he did what he did in the Catwalk demo, and until that explanation is forthcoming, any speculation in this respect is, at best, unhelpful.


Sorry, but as an experienced horse handler I think I and the thousands of other people who have calmly and quietly taught very headshy horses to be bridled easily are entitled to criticise this cleary unnecessary and frankly unhorsemanlike behaviour. The man is not a god, he can be criticised and on this performance, he should be.
 
Originally Posted by Golf Girl
With the greatest respect to all concerned, only Pat Parelli can explain why he did what he did in the Catwalk demo, and until that explanation is forthcoming, any speculation in this respect is, at best, unhelpful.

No, he hasn't offered an explanation. Why not? It's not like he can't know everyone wants one!!

So while he hasn't offered one, somone who is a supporter and who is apparently well researched in these techniques offered an explanation into why it is done. Are we not allowed to think he is correct? If he is incorrect then perhaps Mr P had better offer an explanation!

Ponydentist again has not commented on my question/comment on the technique as much as he's ignored other peoples questions and just continues to try and patronise and belittle us.
 
ponydentist said:
Im sick of all the narrow minded snidy little commments being made on here and the uneducated accusations of abuse and cruelty should not and may very well not be tolorated.
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By which you really mean "I am sick of people not agreeing with me so I am going to throw a tantrum"...

I won't comment on the Parelli demo at Stoneleigh however I did watch a Parelli demo at the British Open this year and can safely it say it was a load of absolute rubbish. It was supposed to be a loading demo so I was hopeful I would see them working with bad loaders but no, what I saw was 15 mins of circus tricks followed by loading (in an obviously drilled and practised order) a horse who was clearly already a good loader. One foot in, one foot out, two feet in, two feet out etc etc. Both horses in the demo were bored senseless, totally brain dead and TBH, had the same look of learned helplessness that some people say they see on certain dressage horses. The horses were bored out of their minds, performing a routine they'd obviously been drilled through ad infinitum, and it was not a true loading demo. In contrast, a Kelly Marks RA came out to me nearly 2 years ago to help with my truly bad loader (nearly broke my ankle barging out of the trailer, think rearing, kicking, spinning, the works) and within 45 mins she had him standing quietly on the trailer instead of quivering with nerves or trying to kill us all. So, OP, you cannot use the argument that I have never seen "natural horsemanship" in action against me when I dismiss Parelli because I have, however I would prefer to put my horse in the hands of Kelly Marks any day over Pat and Linda Parelli.

I've known a few people attempt Parelli on their horses. The lucky ones have ended up just with brain dead horses. The unlucky one ended up with a totally dangerous horse who had to be sold because her nervous, novice owner couldn't get anywhere near her.
 
Hello All

Please take a moment to view the two attached links regarding the travesty that happened last weekend at the Festival of the Horse when Pat Parelli attempted to resolve a problem with the horse Catwalk, owned and ridden by British show jumping icon Robert Whitaker.

The first link illustrates the outrage that so many people feel after witnessing the shameful event. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus&feature=youtu.be

The second link is to a very provocative video blog response to the sham by Canadian horseman Chris Irwin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGfqLkonBg0

For those who do not know of Chris Irwin here are just a few of his credentials:

Best selling author of Horses Don’t Lie and Dancing With Your Dark Horse

Trainer of 18 U.S. National Riding & Driving Champions with Wild Horses

Trainer/Coach of students with “problem horses” that have gone on to win National dressage championships in Canada, The Netherlands and Belgium

Trainer and coach of trainers/certified students who produce regional champions in western reining, western trail class, 3day eventing, show jumping, dressage, western reining and western trail classes

Trainer of problem thoroughbreds who have gone on to win races

Trainer of problem and runaway driving teams that have gone on to win parades

Consultant to numerous colleges and universities in developing advanced equine sciences and equestrian curriculum

Designer of equine assisted Leadership program and equine research programs with the University of Guelph in Canada

Featured presenter at major horse shows and expositions such as the Spruce Meadows Masters in Alberta, Canada, the Equine Affaires in America, The Royal Horse Show in Canada, The World Pony Club Conference and The Horse Event in the Netherlands

A few media quotes:

“Irwin is the evolution of the Natural Horsemanship”
Horses All Magazine, Canada

Dressage Today: in the United States praised Irwin’s ability to“develop courage and confidence in nervous horses.”

Dutch magazines such as Amazone, PaardenSport and Bit have written about his refreshing approach as “non-aggressive while yielding incredible results and radical transformations in horses with issues”.

Horse & Rider magazine in the United States: “nobody understands and explains the horse-human relationship better then Chris Irwin”.

Belgium magazine VVF: Chris Irwin is “The Master of Awareness”.

PaardenSport: the elite Dutch equestrian magazine stated “Irwin’s success is not because he is commercialized like so many of his American colleagues but because he is an extraordinary horseman and personal coach.”
 
DragonSlayer said:
SandiAustin, thankyou so much for this! I was getting pretty dismayed over feeling that 'American is Better' and basically, it's just all good ole fashioned horse stuff at the end of the day! :D
Click to expand...

Dear DragonSlayer...love the name by the way...i am glad if I can change some views about the "American Way" because we have a lot to offer just like you do...by working together our systems can work so well for the benefit of horses...is that not what we are all about after all. It is sooooo sad that so many people just care about bank accounts and not helping horse and human work together. No one is right and no one is perfect so lets all stay positive and help our equine friends...THAT IS WHAT WE ALL WANT AFTER ALL. Whether we are international standard, or just want to hack to the pub for a meal and a beer...HELLO... is this not all about working toward...enjoying horses...well i know i remember dreaming about my first pony.
 
SandiAustin said:
Dear DragonSlayer...love the name by the way...i am glad if I can change some views about the "American Way" because we have a lot to offer just like you do...by working together our systems can work so well for the benefit of horses...is that not what we are all about after all. It is sooooo sad that so many people just care about bank accounts and not helping horse and human work together. No one is right and no one is perfect so lets all stay positive and help our equine friends...THAT IS WHAT WE ALL WANT AFTER ALL. Whether we are international standard, or just want to hack to the pub for a meal and a beer...HELLO... is this not all about working toward...enjoying horses...well i know i remember dreaming about my first pony.
Click to expand...

Are you Sandi Austin from Austins Equine....???? I googled you....!
 
Abay said:
Please explain to me, slowly if you prefer, how what PP did on Friday, was not dominating and how it was building a partnership.

Pretend, I have never touch a horse, but really want to join PP, if it is easier like that.
Click to expand...
I can't speak for PP! Only he can say why he did what he did on Friday!
 
ponydentist said:
Ahh......Hallelujha.

People are starting to think.

Other use of the rope in that demo included the fixing of a rope atatched to the HALTER...and then to the horses LEG (remember the importance of legs and feet here when training horses...think "footfall" as considered in classical riding techniques)...at two points at seperate stages...above the knee first....then below the knee.

Can anyone tell me what the theroy behind the use of a standing martigale and a running martingale......does a running martingale not often involve putting pressure on the horses tongue???....one of the most domineering techniques involved in any form of horsetraining. Are these gadgets not forms of restraint employed to PREVENT a horse from lifting its head above a certain position??? Isnt that "prevention of freedom to display normal behaviour"?? Would not the sme thing but not used on the tongue be preferable??
Anymore lights comming on yet.
I make no appology for my manner here. I started this thread and asked for sensible discussions.....from open minded people who were there.......not unfounded accusations of abuse and cruelty from tunnel visioned narrow minded witch hunters.

I didnt ask for your views on Parelli Natural horsemanship. Look at my earlier posts posted last Sunday to see my experience and where im comming from ....Ive been....Ive seen and Ive handeled thousands and thousands of horses.
Click to expand...

There is a really good thread running on this site by Tongue~n~cheek who is a Parelli Practitioner, it is a good debate and many of the 'narrow minded' have responded postively and engaged in helpful discussion with her about the relative benefits of many training activities.

She has proven a good ambassador for Parelli and engaged in mature discussions, don't undo her good work with condesencion towards those you invited to debate in the first place.
 
just a reminder here people,,,,catwalk is fine....he is his usual self and has been ridden out everyday.....i think this will be a learning experience for everyone involved.......but the main priority here is catwalk not people egos and reputations and he is fine and in no way traumatised or affected by the demostration ..........
 
Golf Girl said:
I can't speak for PP! Only he can say why he did what he did on Friday!
Click to expand...

I did not ask you to speak for PP, I asked you to explain to me, that what he did was not dominating and how that is building a partnership.

Let me re-formulate the question. Do YOU think, that, that is the way to build a partnership with a horse, or do YOU think what he did was dominating?
 
SandiAustin said:
ummmmm...yes i am...i did not want to say that because i do not want anyone to think i am doing the same rubbish!!! I am TRULY here for the horses and not for the marketing and i guess that is why i am not as rich as some!
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OH MY GOD! I've heard about you for years and didn't dare call coz people tell me how awesome you are and you would think I'm some sort of ilk!

You sorted out major problems with someones horse I know who liked to eat people, he came back a soft puppy and you are their heroine!

You aren't too far from me either....might have to make a phone call!!!!

Yay!
 
I think what a few people have said that has bothered people the most is that pat parelli is supposed to be "natural horsemanship", and what he did they dont class as "Natural" at all. Does that mean that someone who does this and does not use natural horsemanship are "allowed" to do this sort of thing?

What gets me is that people get all hot and bothered when we see this kind of treatment from a NH person but when it is by someone who isnt NH, such as a dressage rider or a jumper, its just seen as training.
lets take draw reins? Im sure no one here uses them, but a lot of the pros do. Although they prevent the horse from being able to say anything by moving his head, they are seen as useful tools.
What about flash nose bands. Again, im sure no one here uses one, but most people will agree they have a place in horse training. Again, they prevent the horse from saying anything because his mouth is clamped shut. Maybe his mouth hurts him or he doesnt like the bit. Lets shut him up by tying his mouth shut. Again, im sure no one here does that.

I think that before we judge someone on his techniques we really have to evaluate our own. People here have said that us in the UK treat out horses kinder and have higher welfare standards than the US? Really? Examples please if any one has them.

Do our higher welfare standards include the use of whips, spurs, bits, draw reins, bungies, clamp nosebands?

And its the people at the top of their game, the pros, who are more guilty than others because they have more of a desire to win, sometimes at any cost. Who looses out, the horse.

Im not saying what pat did was the right thing, he made a judgement error. Wrong horse, wrong place.

But from what i have seen in my life of the treatment of traditional trainers at all levels, im glad to be associated with what people term natural horsemanship. In my views, its just good training. wether is parelli or another trainer.

People really need to open their eyes to the cruelty in our own backyards. People at county level shows or affliated events are just as guilty of cruelty by the use of certain bits, nosebands, whips etc. If people cant see this sort of thing as common, then maybe it is them who is blinded by the truth.

Rant over
 
SirenaXVI said:
Can I turn the question on you then please ponydentist?

How many lessons have you had with Olympic Dressage Trainers

How many BD official training sessions have you attended

How many official BD displays have you given

How many times have you trained with Carl Hester

Have you read Xenophon?

It's all relative
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I have had Lessons with Christopher Bartle and his sister Jayne.....does that count?? I have treated horses for him.....and given lectures to his students. He and Jayne told a client who was looking for a reference from them for my services...."not only is he the best dentist we have ever used but he is also one of the best horsemen we have ever had working on our horses" I have also had lessons with Vicky Thompson and have treated horses for her at Oldencraig.

No official Brirtish dressage training sessions attended.

No official British Dressage Displays given

No Lessons had with Carl Hester

Dressage isnt my particular interest.....doesnt float my boat.

Have read some of Xenophon....he was one of the first to make references to dentistry in equines and his writings on bitting are thought provoking. Read it when working with Dale and Ron Myler of Myler bits fame.

Come on then.....whats the relavence?
 
ponydentist said:
Ahh......Hallelujha.
Click to expand...
I wouldnt be trying to bring God into this one,given that his message was not to hurt animals ;)



ponydentist said:
I make no appology for my manner here. I started this thread and asked for sensible discussions.....from open minded people who were there.......not unfounded accusations of abuse and cruelty from tunnel visioned narrow minded witch hunters.
Click to expand...
Ah joy- a new buzzword! :D
Fact is,ANYONE seen handling Catwalk(or any other horse) in that mannor would have the same treatment on here.
It is NOT OK and people will not ignore it-thats not a witch hunt it is standing up for an animal that can't do it for itself.
As for the question,care to try that one again? :p
Did you want honest views or opinions that backed your up?



ponydentist said:
How many of you have ever watched stallions fight when fighting for supremacy?? What do they try to to do to each others legs??/ in particular the foreleg?? What is the thing a horse treasures most (body part) and what part of the body are horse most reluctant to let anyone or anything touch, handle or incapcitate???? Are we getting there yet anyone???? Any lights comming on in empty heads??/
Click to expand...

Have you ever watched lions fight for supremacy?
Would you care to employ those tactics when "teaching" a lion how to behave and accept what you want?
Of course not,a lion would fight to win not to make an escape route. :p

We are not and never can be accepted as horses-attempting to speak a language they can understand is a good thing,pretending we can become fluent at it is plain stupid and attempting it with a frightend horse is downright dangerous.
The way to handle any part of a horse is to be trusted by it. We earn their trust be prooving we are deserving of that trust,not by forcing them to do what we want.
 
chrisnapthineEDT said:
just a reminder here people,,,,catwalk is fine....he is his usual self and has been ridden out everyday.....i think this will be a learning experience for everyone involved.......but the main priority here is catwalk not people egos and reputations and he is fine and in no way traumatised or affected by the demostration ..........
Click to expand...


How do they manage with putting his bridle on?
 
Abay said:
I did not ask you to speak for PP, I asked you to explain to me, that what he did was not dominating and how that is building a partnership.

Let me re-formulate the question. Do YOU think, that, that is the way to build a partnership with a horse, or do YOU think what he did was dominating?
Click to expand...
Hey, read my lips. I am not Pat Parelli, therefore I can't say why he did what he did - only he can explain that. I wasn't there, I didn't see the whole thing, so how can I (or anyone else who wasn't there throughout, and doesn't have the benefit of knowing what his rationale was at the time) possibly comment on that specific subject?
 
chrisnapthineEDT said:
just a reminder here people,,,,catwalk is fine....he is his usual self and has been ridden out everyday.....i think this will be a learning experience for everyone involved.......but the main priority here is catwalk not people egos and reputations and he is fine and in no way traumatised or affected by the demostration ..........
Click to expand...

While I am sure everyone is extremly happy that Catwak is fine and dandy,that in itself makes him now NOT the priority.

People are weird creatures,and if someone gets away with bad behaviour once they will do it again.....then again.......and again. Then hell,why not try something more extreme? not had anything bad happen for previous bad behavoiur right?
Catwalk may have walked away with no long term issues(although if his mouth was cut he did get some short term problems) the next horse or another somewhere down the line may not be so lucky.
The way PP delt with Catwalk may be fine in his little self centred world but it is not and never will be in the UK.

Treat the animals in your care right or face the music.
A favorite quote of mine from childhood,although I have no idea where it came from-
We ordane the hour of their birth and the hour of their death,in between-we have a duty.
Click to expand...
 
Jennyharvey said:
I think what a few people have said that has bothered people the most is that pat parelli is supposed to be "natural horsemanship", and what he did they dont class as "Natural" at all. Does that mean that someone who does this and does not use natural horsemanship are "allowed" to do this sort of thing?Absolutely not

What gets me is that people get all hot and bothered when we see this kind of treatment from a NH person but when it is by someone who isnt NH, such as a dressage rider or a jumper, its just seen as training.
NO it is not
lets take draw reins? Im sure no one here uses them, but a lot of the pros do. Although they prevent the horse from being able to say anything by moving his head, they are seen as useful tools.
I [personally don't like draw reins either and have said so, many many times
What about flash nose bands. Again, im sure no one here uses one, but most people will agree they have a place in horse training. Again, they prevent the horse from saying anything because his mouth is clamped shut. Maybe his mouth hurts him or he doesnt like the bit. Lets shut him up by tying his mouth shut. Again, im sure no one here does that.
I hate flash nosebands

I think that before we judge someone on his techniques we really have to evaluate our own. People here have said that us in the UK treat out horses kinder and have higher welfare standards than the US? Really? Examples please if any one has them. Actually I don't believe this for a moment, I am perfectly confident that there are some excellent horse people in America, I am equally confident that the UK has some terrible horse people

Do our higher welfare standards include the use of whips, spurs, bits, draw reins, bungies, clamp nosebands?
I use a dressage whip and I also use spurs, neither is used as a form of abuse and I have never hit a horse in anger

And its the people at the top of their game, the pros, who are more guilty than others because they have more of a desire to win, sometimes at any cost. Who looses out, the horse.
You may well be right but abuse is also committed by non professionals - on both sides of the pond


Im not saying what pat did was the right thing, he made a judgement error. Wrong horse, wrong place.
wrong methods
But from what i have seen in my life of the treatment of traditional trainers at all levels, im glad to be associated with what people term natural horsemanship. In my views, its just good training. wether is parelli or another trainer.
I will never ever think of Parelli as NH again
People really need to open their eyes to the cruelty in our own backyards. People at county level shows or affliated events are just as guilty of cruelty by the use of certain bits, nosebands, whips etc. If people cant see this sort of thing as common, then maybe it is them who is blinded by the truth.
Yes and I am sure that each and every person who has commented on this thread would step in if they saw real abuse - I know I have.
Rant over
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I don't know what methods you 'think' we non NH people use but I can assure you that in the main they do NOT involve what you describe above, I don't dispute for a moment that not all conventional people use the soft approach, but then Mr P has just proved that not all NH people do either
 
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