Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

[martlin]

Ahh......Hallelujha.

People are starting to think.

Other use of the rope in that demo included the fixing of a rope atatched to the HALTER...and then to the horses LEG (remember the importance of legs and feet here when training horses...think "footfall" as considered in classical riding techniques)...at two points at seperate stages...above the knee first....then below the knee.

Can anyone tell me what the theroy behind the use of a standing martigale and a running martingale......does a running martingale not often involve putting pressure on the horses tongue???....one of the most domineering techniques involved in any form of horsetraining. Are these gadgets not forms of restraint employed to PREVENT a horse from lifting its head above a certain position??? Isnt that "prevention of freedom to display normal behaviour"?? Would not the sme thing but not used on the tongue be preferable??
Anymore lights comming on yet.
I make no appology for my manner here. I started this thread and asked for sensible discussions.....from open minded people who were there.......not unfounded accusations of abuse and cruelty from tunnel visioned narrow minded witch hunters.

I didnt ask for your views on Parelli Natural horsemanship. Look at my earlier posts posted last Sunday to see my experience and where im comming from ....Ive been....Ive seen and Ive handeled thousands and thousands of horses.

You are getting nicer and nicer by the minute. I've considered briefly a response to you that would maybe get understood better by you, but thought better of it - I can't justify resulting to insults.
As you won't apologise for your manner, I will just point out that if you need to be rude to put your argument across - you have lost the debate.

 

[SirenaXVI]

I have had Lessons with Christopher Bartle and his sister Jayne.....does that count?? I have treated horses for him.....and given lectures to his students. He and Jayne told a client who was looking for a reference from them for my services...."not only is he the best dentist we have ever used but he is also one of the best horsemen we have ever had working on our horses" I have also had lessons with Vicky Thompson and have treated horses for her at Oldencraig.

No official Brirtish dressage training sessions attended.

No official British Dressage Displays given

No Lessons had with Carl Hester

Dressage isnt my particular interest.....doesnt float my boat.

Have read some of Xenophon....he was one of the first to make references to dentistry in equines and his writings on bitting are thought provoking. Read it when working with Dale and Ron Myler of Myler bits fame.

Come on then.....whats the relavence?

I did state earlier what the relevance was but I will repeat it here.

You insinuated that Martlin's experience (which is considerable btw) was inferior to yours. You then attempted to prove a point by asking PNP based questions. As Martlin is not into PNP your questions were an irrelevant way to guage her horse experience, just as my dressage based ones are irrelevant to yours, lucky guess on my part that my dressage experience is considerably more than yours - no offence intended.

 

[baymareb]

I have spoken to the RSPCA and prepared to give a statement to the effect that NO ABUSE OR CRUELTY happeneed that night. I ave also contacted the head of welfare at the BHS and given a side of the story to the same effect.

And this is your right, just as others have a right to complain about it.

The techniques, methodology and rationalle used with that particular horse have been used....researched.... and proven to work in certain cases.

Let's assume that is correct (which doesn't mean I agree with it because your statement without any backing documentation - and I don't mean some quote from a Parelli website - proves nothing). Even if these techniques are correct, I will NEVER approve of these demos and clinics that give the impression (when they work) that horse training can be a quick and easy enterprise. It is not, nor should it be.

As far as I'm concerned, it is irresponsible of any horse professional to put on a show purporting to "fix" problem horse. Don't like it, never will. And a problem like bridling is known by every reputable horse person I know to be one that requires time and patience. A public demo seems an awful place for that type of horse.

Do you really honestly think in your wildest dreams that a man of this statuer in the horse world would commit suicide in sucha manner in front of hundreds of people.

You've made this argument before and it's a poor one. Just because a person holds a high position doesn't mean they won't act foolishly. In fact, many people in high positions have become so arrogant that they have subsequently been tumbled from them because of their arrogance.

This is a WITHCHUNT by people who's knowledge of horsemanship and training techniques extend only to the tiny little worlds they live in. Some people's experience of horses and horsemanship extend only to their own experiences of owning maybe a few horses and those of their friends.

This is just insulting to everyone who has objected. You know nothing of the experience of myself or anyone else on this thread and I know nothing of yours. I would no sooner accuse you of being an ignorant horse person than I would anyone else. It is the same knee-jerk argument I see in so many of the comments on the Parelli Facebook page - "they just don't understand." It is patronizing and does no justice to your argument.

I have seen more horsemanship than most

You are able to tout your expertise but no one else here has any knowledge?

and understand that everything he did that night was done for a reason .....one reason.....to help the horse.

If he wanted to truly help the horse, he would have conducted his "training" in a quiet environment over time.

i hope the hell he sue's the arse of you all who have accused him in writing.....but I know he wont....but he should.

And this shows a singular lack of understanding of the realities of defamation when one is a public figure. One of the key elements is that the statements have to be shown to be untrue - I'm not aware that anything on here that has been stated has been untrue - the great majority has been opinion.

 

[PapaFrita]

Golf Girl.
This question:

Ok, a genuine question. Actually questions.
Do you think that Catwalk's briding issues could've been handled differently? Over more time, for instance, gradually introducing him to the bridle. Or do you think that Pat handled the situation the best way possible?
If you think that Catwalk's issues could've been dealt with differently, over weeks rather than hours or days, don't you think that THAT's the example he should have set?

Also this question.

Weeell, if he's giving a demonstration of his techniques, isn't the point to explain? And if we are all guilty of a 'misunderstanding' why is there no explanation forthcoming? Surely this would be the way of settling everyone's grievances? Does he think he's above explaining as we're all too ignorant to understand? If so, as I asked in a previous post, surely he should be demonstrating the techniques the spectators CAN understand and put into practice themselves without running the risk of hurting themselves or the horse (because you CAN see how this could've happened, can't you?)

Also, how is 2 people holding a horse with ropes not about dominance? This is clear from the very grainy video. If the horse is not given the chance to retreat/escape then that is most certainly dominance.

I know the first question was not addressed to you personally in the first instance, but it would be nice to get a straight answer. Heck, any answer that wasn't a deflection or evasion would be good.

 

[SirenaXVI]

Hey, read my lips. I am not Pat Parelli, therefore I can't say why he did what he did - only he can explain that. I wasn't there, I didn't see the whole thing, so how can I (or anyone else who wasn't there throughout, and doesn't have the benefit of knowing what his rationale was at the time) possibly comment on that specific subject?

Yup I repeat you did not understand it either then

 

[Abay]

Hey, read my lips. I am not Pat Parelli, therefore I can't say why he did what he did - only he can explain that. I wasn't there, I didn't see the whole thing, so how can I (or anyone else who wasn't there throughout, and doesn't have the benefit of knowing what his rationale was at the time) possibly comment on that specific subject?

AGAIN, I DIDNOT ASK YOU TO EXPLAIN WHY PP DID WHAT HE DID. I asked, if YOU (yes YOU, not PP), think what he did was dominating the horse or the correct way, in YOUR eyes to form a partnership with a horse.

Sorry, now writing in cap. letters is rude, but but but....................

 

[ponydentist]

Pops head above parapet.

Ok Ponydentist. I've seen 2 Monty Roberts demos in the Uk and have been to the Illinois Horsefest where i got to see Linda tellington Jones, Gawani Pony boy and Chris Cox in action.
I have a ticket to see Andrew McLean next month.

Am I entitled to an opinion? If so, please hear my disgust at the video i have viewed on Youtube.

You have seen a few different horsemen then .....some of who use "NH" some of who dont....Gawani Pony boy......( the jewish guy who poses as a native American)....hmmmmm.

Have any of these people dealt with many extreeme stallions as in this case in particular case. If they have they may be familiar with the methodologies and techniques involved.


All I am saying here is that what some people saw was what they wanted to see.....they may not have int insight to see deeper and understand the pyschology involved i what happened.

Taking aside the marketing of Parelli Natural Horsemanship and all its strategies and the way it promotes itself......Is anyone...hand on heart stupid enough to think that one of the worlds greatest horsemen....horse trainers...call him what you will or wont.....would "abuse" or be cruel to a horse in front of hundreds of people?

What he may be guilty of is failing to explain fully what his rationalle was in using those methods with that particular horse. I have absolutely no doubt at all that what he did....he did for a reason.....to help the horse.

My own personal feelings are that there will be a full unedited video available with FULL NARRATION of the rationale and pyschology behind the techniques used. I feel it will be offered for view to the world leading equine welfare organisations firsrt for their understanding and critique....before offering it to those who are lower down the scale in terms of familiarity with those philosphies.

If he wants to sell it a highh price....so be it....if he gets the ubderstanding of those afforementioned "officials".....then so be it. Upto him....it was his demo.

When you have a greater understanding of some of the techniques involved...eg why the use of legs was so instrumental in this approach....then maybe some may see how it may fit more into the "natural" mode....eg using what happens in nature to good effect.

 

[Abay]

Yup I repeat you did not understand it either then

Sorry to say, I think you are right

 

[henryhorn]

Jennyharvey sorry but your rant doesn't make sense.
The P organisation has set itself up World Wide as something "natural" and kind.
I fail to see how a flash noseband is in the same league as giving a horse an injury however minor, subjecting it to an out and out fight in front of an audience then telling them what happened was ok..
You P lovers can rant and shout as loud as you like that the rest of us can't see what we should, but judging from the number of experienced horse people who have responded to the initial thread, it's the P people who have their eyes blinkered.
I agree PP handled that stallion badly, but what worries me somewhat is if he felt it was acceptable to treat it like that in a public demo, what on earth may he be doing out of sight?
I was more than happy to learn about any new training methods when P first appeared in the UK. Then I saw the results of several horses who had been parellied by inexperienced horse owners. As a professional it was obvious what had happened was despite attending the training courses the owners had "trained " their animals to do things incorrectly, making it a hell of a task to rehabilitate (yes I use that word deliberately) said horses.
I then watched a number of parelli demonstrators getting ready behind the scenes before a demo, their carrot sticks were just that STICKS...
And they used them the same way and far too frequently as well.
I am afraid you protest too much, we can all see with our own eyes in various clips (the blind horse as well as this stallion) how incompetent the head people at Parelli can be, and how clever marketing has made their organisation look.
The members on H and H forums cover a huge spectrum, from professional event/dressage riders and trainers to happy hackers, but one thing unites them all; they aren't stupid....

 

[ponydentist]

I did state earlier what the relevance was but I will repeat it here.

You insinuated that Martlin's experience (which is considerable btw) was inferior to yours. You then attempted to prove a point by asking PNP based questions. As Martlin is not into PNP your questions were an irrelevant way to guage her horse experience, just as my dressage based ones are irrelevant to yours, lucky guess on my part that my dressage experience is considerably more than yours - no offence intended.

Sorry....am a little lost.....what do you mean by PNP based questions? I am talking about and was refereing to in my questions to the poster concerned....techniques used by several different horse trainers ? behaviorists / horsemen and women. I dont recall being specific to PNP methods.

 

[baymareb]

Have any of these people dealt with many extreeme stallions as in this case in particular case.

Oh, stop it with the "extreme stallion" nonsense! There is nothing in any of these videos or with the eyewitness accounts that makes me believe there was anything "extreme" about this stallion. He's a high level HJ - if he was that "extreme" it would not be possible to use him in that way.

That's as ridiculous as the argument that if he hadn't been "fixed" by Parelli, he'd have gone for dog food.

 

[SirenaXVI]

Sorry....am a little lost.....what do you mean by PNP based questions? I am talking about and was refereing to in my questions to the poster concerned....techniques used by several different horse trainers ? behaviorists / horsemen and women. I dont recall being specific to PNP methods.

OK my mistake not PNH but def NH no? Not difficult to guess that Martlin was not into NH was it? My point remains the same.

 

[Golf Girl]

Golf Girl.
This question:

Ok, a genuine question. Actually questions.
Do you think that Catwalk's briding issues could've been handled differently? Over more time, for instance, gradually introducing him to the bridle. Or do you think that Pat handled the situation the best way possible?
If you think that Catwalk's issues could've been dealt with differently, over weeks rather than hours or days, don't you think that THAT's the example he should have set?

Also this question.

Weeell, if he's giving a demonstration of his techniques, isn't the point to explain? And if we are all guilty of a 'misunderstanding' why is there no explanation forthcoming? Surely this would be the way of settling everyone's grievances? Does he think he's above explaining as we're all too ignorant to understand? If so, as I asked in a previous post, surely he should be demonstrating the techniques the spectators CAN understand and put into practice themselves without running the risk of hurting themselves or the horse (because you CAN see how this could've happened, can't you?)

Also, how is 2 people holding a horse with ropes not about dominance? This is clear from the very grainy video. If the horse is not given the chance to retreat/escape then that is most certainly dominance.

I know the first questions was not addressed to you personally in the first instance, but it would be nice to get a straight answer. Heck, any answer that wasn't a deflection or evasion would be good.

I'm sorry, I don't know what Catwalk's 'bridling issues' were. I don't know how Pat handled the situation, I wasn't there. I don't know what the point of the whole exercise was - whether it was a 'demo' to showcase Pat's skill as a horseman, a 'clinic' to sort out real people's/horses' problems, or an 'overview' of the Parelli methodology for those not familiar with it. I'm not an expert in PNH (or anything else for that matter). Whilst I really would love to give you the answers that you seek, I'm afraid only Pat Parelli is in a position to do that.

 

[Onyxia]

Have any of these people dealt with many extreeme stallions as in this case in particular case. If they have they may be familiar with the methodologies and techniques involved.

Dude,get over yourself

Can you post a link to a video showing Catwalk behaving as a dangerous wild stallion that will kill or maim PP if not dominated ASAP?
Go on,try to find one
Refusal to accept the bridle/fear of the bridle is a common issue(normaly IME caused by rough handling and/or the handler letting the bit bang the mouth as it is put in or taken out).
Catwalk was acting like a horse confronted by something it fears,not a dangerous animal.
Mares are also entire,does that mean we should be on the offensive with them too,you know-just in case they decide to be dominant and dangerous?

All I am saying here is that what some people saw was what they wanted to see.....they may not have int insight to see deeper and understand the pyschology involved i what happened.

Taking aside the marketing of Parelli Natural Horsemanship and all its strategies and the way it promotes itself......Is anyone...hand on heart stupid enough to think that one of the worlds greatest horsemen....horse trainers...call him what you will or wont.....would "abuse" or be cruel to a horse in front of hundreds of people?

Define how he is great?
Numbers helped? MR has been at it longer,must have a greater total by now.
Money made?Thats simple marketing.
Number of payed up followers? See above

We are smart enough to know that a man given enough "power" will come to belive his own hype,eventually beliving his actions to be beyound question and right becaause they are his actions.
That would fit the above if you decide to acept PP as a good horseman to begin with

What he may be guilty of is failing to explain fully what his rationalle was in using those methods with that particular horse. I have absolutely no doubt at all that what he did....he did for a reason.....to help the horse.

Epic fail for a teacher,don't you think?

My own personal feelings are that there will be a full unedited video available with FULL NARRATION of the rationale and pyschology behind the techniques used. I feel it will be offered for view to the world leading equine welfare organisations firsrt for their understanding and critique....before offering it to those who are lower down the scale in terms of familiarity with those philosphies.

As has been pointed out to you allready,if you have to resort to insults you have allready lost the debate.
I would simply like to add that if you are going to use insults,make 'em good ones please.
Poor ones are just boring

When you have a greater understanding of some of the techniques involved...eg why the use of legs was so instrumental in this approach....then maybe some may see how it may fit more into the "natural" mode....eg using what happens in nature to good effect.

I hope like mad I never come to think the way Catwalk was treated is a good way to deal with horses.It may have done the job(time will tell) but the end does not justify the means.

 

[Golf Girl]

AGAIN, I DIDNOT ASK YOU TO EXPLAIN WHY PP DID WHAT HE DID. I asked, if YOU (yes YOU, not PP), think what he did was dominating the horse or the correct way, in YOUR eyes to form a partnership with a horse.

Sorry, now writing in cap. letters is rude, but but but....................

I WAS NOT THERE, I DID NOT SEE WHAT HAPPENED!

With respect, no one is in a position to comment on what went on unless they were there throughout and saw the whole thing! I don't see how I can make it any clearer!

 

[Munchkin]

ponydentist, you have an incredibly high opinion of yourself, don't you? I can see why you and Prat would get along.

Now, in my experience (which I know is of course pitiful compared to your Godly status), people who feel the need to tell everyone how wonderful they are, constantly, usually aren't.

I've had lessons with Chris and Jane too. And a few other very well thought of international riders and trainers. My vet is one of the top vets in the country, I learn an awful lot from him, as he chooses to talk me through treatment and let me take over when I can. Nice to be trusted. Do I think I know more about riding and veterinary care than everyone else on here? No. Do I think I have a lot to learn? Yes.

Seen plenty of NH demos, including Prat's. Learnt some things at many of them, "banked" in case I ever come across a horse who requires another approach. I can honestly say, hand on heart, that Prat Parelli is the only "NH" person who has failed to impress me. I have always found him and his followers somewhat amusing... or should that be bemusing? Most of what all of these people demonstrate, however, is common sense.

Since Friday last week I've had a pony who wouldn't come near a human being (and would spin and kick out at a person who attempted to approach him in an enclosed space). He's now letting me climb all over him while he stands in the stable. Am I a "natural horsewoman?" No, I just used my experience to deal with him and to be honest it wasn't rocket science.

I've competed in show jumping (mainly), showing, dressage and hunter trials. I hunt, had a crack at team chasing, I break my own horses in, I break other people's horses in, I reschool so-called problem horses.

Do I think I know more than everyone here? No. Do I think I know more about some aspects of horsecare and riding than some here? Yes. Do I think some people here know more about some aspects of horsecare and riding than me? Yes.

Point of my post?

GET OVER YOURSELF.

 

[martlin]

OK my mistake not PNH but def NH no? Not difficult to guess that Martlin was not into NH was it? My point remains the same.

Oh, but Sirena, I AM the one and only TRUE horse whisperer! Doesn't get any more 'natural' than that, does it?
Anyway, I've answered Ponydentist's questions in as much detailed as I'm prepared to go into, hope that helped and he will maybe tell you that, because as I can see, he prefers to talk about me rather than to me, which is fair enough.

 

[SirenaXVI]

You have seen a few different horsemen then .....some of who use "NH" some of who dont....Gawani Pony boy......( the jewish guy who poses as a native American)....hmmmmm.
Irrelevant to this particular case
Have any of these people dealt with many extreeme stallions as in this case in particular case. If they have they may be familiar with the methodologies and techniques involved.
Blimey did you really believe that was an 'extreme' stallion, my oh my you have led a sheltered life

All I am saying here is that what some people saw was what they wanted to see.....they may not have int insight to see deeper and understand the pyschology involved i what happened.
Oh please not that *******s again! WE ARE NOT STUPID AND RECOGNISE BAD TRAINING METHODS WHEN WE SEE THEM sorry for shouting
Taking aside the marketing of Parelli Natural Horsemanship and all its strategies and the way it promotes itself......Is anyone...hand on heart stupid enough to think that one of the worlds greatest horsemen....horse trainers...call him what you will or wont.....would "abuse" or be cruel to a horse in front of hundreds of people?
Not so much stupid, but very very arrogant

What he may be guilty of is failing to explain fully what his rationalle was in using those methods with that particular horse. I have absolutely no doubt at all that what he did....he did for a reason.....to help the horse.
Yup blindly believe without question

My own personal feelings are that there will be a full unedited video available with FULL NARRATION of the rationale and pyschology behind the techniques used. I feel it will be offered for view to the world leading equine welfare organisations firsrt for their understanding and critique....before offering it to those who are lower down the scale in terms of familiarity with those philosphies.
I await this with interest

If he wants to sell it a highh price....so be it....if he gets the ubderstanding of those afforementioned "officials".....then so be it. Upto him....it was his demo.
Of course he will sell it at a high price, that's a given!

When you have a greater understanding of some of the techniques involved...eg why the use of legs was so instrumental in this approach....then maybe some may see how it may fit more into the "natural" mode....eg using what happens in nature to good effect.

Actually, I never have and never will want to have a greater understanding of what went on. You see my lovely mares and myself are very happy in our little bubble of ignorance. The fact that when I work them free in the school, they follow me round copying my movements - and I mean spanish walk and passage btw, they keep out of my space unless invited in and are happy and secure within themselves is enough for me

 

[Jennyharvey]

Jennyharvey sorry but your rant doesn't make sense.
The P organisation has set itself up World Wide as something "natural" and kind.
I fail to see how a flash noseband is in the same league as giving a horse an injury however minor, subjecting it to an out and out fight in front of an audience then telling them what happened was ok..
You P lovers can rant and shout as loud as you like that the rest of us can't see what we should, but judging from the number of experienced horse people who have responded to the initial thread, it's the P people who have their eyes blinkered.
I agree PP handled that stallion badly, but what worries me somewhat is if he felt it was acceptable to treat it like that in a public demo, what on earth may he be doing out of sight?
I was more than happy to learn about any new training methods when P first appeared in the UK. Then I saw the results of several horses who had been parellied by inexperienced horse owners. As a professional it was obvious what had happened was despite attending the training courses the owners had "trained " their animals to do things incorrectly, making it a hell of a task to rehabilitate (yes I use that word deliberately) said horses.
I then watched a number of parelli demonstrators getting ready behind the scenes before a demo, their carrot sticks were just that STICKS...
And they used them the same way and far too frequently as well.
I am afraid you protest too much, we can all see with our own eyes in various clips (the blind horse as well as this stallion) how incompetent the head people at Parelli can be, and how clever marketing has made their organisation look.
The members on H and H forums cover a huge spectrum, from professional event/dressage riders and trainers to happy hackers, but one thing unites them all; they aren't stupid....

I agree with you. There are alot of bad horse trainers who train using parelli and other so called NH methods. But what im trying to say is that i feel that some people are blinkered to what goes on in our own backyard and our own local shows.
Maybe other pepple here dont always see traditional horsemanship for what it is. And why wouldnt you class a flash as the same as injuring a horse? The damage a bit can do to a horses mouth, just because we cant see the horse shouting because his mouth is strapped shut doesnt mean that its not hurting the horse.
And by the way, i do feel that some parelli people are blinkered, but they are not the only ones.
Im not saying what pat did was appropriate, far from it. But i dont think that many people in UK equestrian sector arent guilt fee either. Maybe they are not charging a fortune to teach the stuff, but that doesnt mean its acceptable.

 

[PapaFrita]

I'm sorry, I don't know what Catwalk's 'bridling issues' were. I don't know how Pat handled the situation, I wasn't there. I don't know what the point of the whole exercise was - whether it was a 'demo' to showcase Pat's skill as a horseman, a 'clinic' to sort out real people's/horses' problems, or an 'overview' of the Parelli methodology for those not familiar with it. I'm not an expert in PNH (or anything else for that matter). Whilst I really would love to give you the answers that you seek, I'm afraid only Pat Parelli is in a position to do that.

So you haven't watched the video and yet defend him? Confusing.

 

[Jennyharvey]

I don't know what methods you 'think' we non NH people use but I can assure you that in the main they do NOT involve what you describe above, I don't dispute for a moment that not all conventional people use the soft approach, but then Mr P has just proved that not all NH people do either

I would agree.

 

[Crazy Friesian]

YAWN Hopefully their ticket out of the uk...

 

[Abay]

I WAS NOT THERE, I DID NOT SEE WHAT HAPPENED!

With respect, no one is in a position to comment on what went on unless they were there throughout and saw the whole thing! I don't see how I can make it any clearer!

You finally answered (well sort of), my question or you just do not want to.

With respect, I can personally make an opinion from the youtube clips.
Lip chains, rope around legs with 2 people pulling on them, is in my opinion dominating and not the way to build a partnership.

 

[Golf Girl]

So you haven't watched the video and yet defend him? Confusing.

Em, I watched the 'video' to which you refer, and these brief, poor quality clips taken out of the context of the full session are not sufficient to allow me (or anyone else) to make an informed opinion on what went on.

 

[Onyxia]

Im not saying what pat did was appropriate, far from it. But i dont think that many people in UK equestrian sector arent guilt fee either. Maybe they are not charging a fortune to teach the stuff, but that doesnt mean its acceptable.

I agree,as would anyone else.
I sadly see people digging in spurs while hauling on the mouth,feeding their allready fat horses to death and making bad decisions about their care due to lack of experiance (for example) all too often.I don't ignore it and don't think many would.

There are many issues in the horse world that need dealing with,many common practises that need to end and we do what we can when we can-startign with shouting loadly about treatment and training(of horse and rider).


Edit to add-
Ponydentist,you started this thread 5 days ago and Admin have not pulled it.
I very much doubt someone has yet to push The Big Button so they will be aware of it,but feel there is nothing(as yet anyway) to make them delete it.

A large company wary of legal action would not hesitate to remove the thread if they thought it would land them in hot water.

 

[Natch]

To those who keep on saying we can't possibly judge because we weren't there.

There are video clips.

Everyone who was there and has posted on here has stated the same facts of what physically happened. Which rather leads me to believe that the horse DID have a rope deliberately around its leg for the purpose of holding his leg up, and that the horse DID have a rope inserted between his gum and lip.

The BHS have confirmed to anyone who wishes to email them, that they did arrange for a vet to see the horse and that it did have a cut on its inner lip. They confirmed that the vet advised the horse not be used for a demonstration the following day (irrelevant as to if it was planned or not).

Anyone wish to say that the above are not statements of fact?

The reasons for it, and our opinions on that are being debated. Everyone has the right to be heard.

I stand by my assertions that:
a) Quite apart from anything else, as an equine science student and a person who has studied and practiced NH for years, the things above do not sit right with me, whether it be in the name of NH or anything else.
b) There is a PP quote that says in effect that he doesn't agree with twitches, spurs and tie-downs. The facts go against his previous assertions, which is hypocritical.
c) I don't think using a gum line or holding a horse's leg up for whatever reason should be classed as Natural Horsemanship. If there were a governing body of NH I would be petitioning them to have the words Natural and Horsemanship removed from the Parelli brand name.

 

[ponydentist]

Oh, stop it with the "extreme stallion" nonsense! There is nothing in any of these videos or with the eyewitness accounts that makes me believe there was anything "extreme" about this stallion. He's a high level HJ - if he was that "extreme" it would not be possible to use him in that way.

That's as ridiculous as the argument that if he hadn't been "fixed" by Parelli, he'd have gone for dog food.

Not necessarilly talking about stallion behaviour here (I was there....I did see....I am familiar with techniques and horse body language...behavioural traits). I mean this was an Extreme case of head shy / bridle evasion... one of the most I have seen i 46 years. There were elements of extreme resistance as well as those of fear of the bridle...Im sure it became clear to Pat Parelli that this was more than at first thought....but there were times when the horse said "ok...im happy with that ... move on to next stage" and when the trainer got to the next stage the horse said..."F**K **F. There was a wellestablished chain of events in the horses mind which had led him to display such behaviour when presented with certain scenarios. ONE LINK in that chain ha to be broken in order to get a way of moving forward. Once that one link has been broken, the whole chain of events can start to be dissolved and another view of the same scenario seen by the horse. I see this so many times with horses who have an extreem aversion to being able to cope with having routine dental treatments performed on them...association with the Gag ...etc etc etc...I have built a reputation of being able to treat cases such as this without sedation where it has always been reverted to in the past.....and no.....I dont use one leg hobbling. Just tried and tested appliance of pyscloglically sound techniques that others have not used.

Nobody has posted the video footage of the extreeme reaction rthe horse had to any attempt to put the bridle anywhere near his head. Major "breakthroughs" were made several times in touching his head, ears, mouth etc or placing a hand anywhere near his head. Its a pity that footage of this wasnt shown because you would see how extreme these reactions were. However, Pat Parelli has dealt with horses like this before.

I have helped many head shy, bridle shy horses.....but not one as extreme as this.

 

[LucyPriory]

elements of extreme resistance
QUOTE]

Apologies - I am just being a dumb old non understanding middle aged amateur all over again (obviously). But I don't get how you can be so experienced but not dealt with something like this?

 

[Onyxia]

Would you care to explain what Catwalks reaction was then?

I have helped a head shy horse.The people i was lucky enough to train with have helped extreme cases too as have many of the people you are intent on calling stupid and inexperianced on thsi forum-they don't think themselves special in some way and would always put what the horse needed above their own ego and desire to get the job done.
one of the horses came to the yard so frightened that he would attack you if he SAW the bridle in your hands.
We all worked through it-little by little he became a horse happy with his bridle and that is the way to do it.
Granted,lacking in the drama PP demo's like but it worked and was fair to the horse.

 

[baymareb]

I have helped many head shy, bridle shy horses.....but not one as extreme as this.

So it seems like an incredibly poor subject for a public demo. And choosing to use a horse that extreme for a public demo seems to negate your assertion that everything he did was for the good of the horse.