Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

[baymareb]

So how many posting here are PETA members?

Oh, goody! Non sequiturs!

 

[baymareb]

It seems that many of you condone Fox Hunting. And your stance on slaughter? What about wild horses? Of course you are all against metal of any kind on a horse, shoes, bits etc?

How many PETA members posting here?

I'm utterly mystified as to what that has to do with anything in this thread.

 

[7HL]

Oh, goody! Non sequiturs!

Good, you see the humor.

 

[7HL]

I'm utterly mystified as to what that has to do with anything in this thread.

They seem to be fixated on what they believe is abuse. So what will those, who seem to be making accusations of abuse based on clips of videos, except?

I believe that most post on here have an agenda. They were not even at the demo and are repeating things second hand.

 

[baymareb]

But what do fox hunting, slaughter, wild horses, metal and PETA have to do with it?

Are you saying that if a person puts shoes on their horses, they have no business complaining about abuse? Or if they are not a member of PETA, the same? What does anyone's opinion about any of those things have to do with what happened at this demo event?

People may be repeating things at second hand but they are making judgments based on the video which shows some questionable treatment, from the testimony of eyewitnesses who were upset, from the statement of the BHS that said Catwalk was injured and from the silence from the Parelli camp in regards to any explanation (beyond the patronizing remark that people were upset by what they thought they saw.

I think the only agenda here is to point out that something happened that a lot of people think was wrong.

What's your agenda?

 

[7HL]

...
People may be repeating things at second hand but they are making judgments based on the video which shows some questionable treatment, from the testimony of eyewitnesses who were upset, from the statement of the BHS that said Catwalk was injured and from the silence from the Parelli camp in regards to any explanation ...


I think the only agenda here is to point out that something happened that a lot of people think was wrong.

What's your agenda?

I know your agenda was to come here to post in this thread, you stated as much in your first post. It appears that your only reason was to add fuel to some anti-Parelli posts.

The only persons statement the counts at this time is Mr Whittaker's and the Vet that was present. And they haven't made one yet! They also don't owe you or anyone any explanation.

Second hand and fabricated accounts of what happened are not fact.

You ask what does all of the other things have to do with the Demo? I believe that we should know who is making the accusations and what their agenda is. There seems to be some hypocrisy here.

 

[missyme10]

It seems that many of you condone Fox Hunting. And your stance on slaughter? What about wild horses? Of course you are all against metal of any kind on a horse, shoes, bits etc?

How many PETA members posting here?

This is a poor attempt to distract from the point !!!

I have watched the video and am appalled at what I saw. Previously to watching this, I thought parelli was a good thing, but this video and one of his missus repeatedly whipping a horse for god only knows what reason has now changed my opinion.
Its horse abuse in my opinion - which I am entitled to regardless of my view on other issues!

As for asking how many PETA members are there posting here? haha
Whether members or not, they are still entitled to their opinion !

 

[baymareb]

I think there's a lot of hypocrisy going around - won't argue with you there. I think a good deal of it comes from the Parelli people. And yes, I did join the forum specifically to comment in this thread - I don't feel any need to hide that though I don't think stating my opinion on the Parelli method is "fanning the flames" of anything. Nor is it an "agenda." It's just joining the discussion.

I guess you could say my agenda was to join the discussion.

 

[7HL]

I think there's a lot of hypocrisy going around - won't argue with you there. I think a good deal of it comes from the Parelli people.

Were is the hypocrisy?

It's hot hypocritical to have a difference in opinion. Since most people in this thread were not even there, all it is, is opinion.

Pony Dentist who was there and saw the demo in it's entirety gets ridiculed for posting what he and his wife saw.

I haven't heard Mr Whittaker claim his horse was abused. While it might be nice if he said something, he doesn't owe anyone any explanation.

As long as people have an agenda this thread will go on and on. But it serves no purpose but to let the anti-Parelli crowd, gripe and complain.

 

[baymareb]

Were is the hypocrisy?

The hypocrisy comes from telling people they have a better way to train and that they don't believe in dominating and using mechanical means and then resorting to them for hours on this horse.

As long as people have an agenda this thread will go on and on. But it serves no purpose but to let the anti-Parelli crowd, gripe and complain.

Then why are you bumping it up over and over?

 

[7HL]

The hypocrisy comes from telling people they have a better way to train and that they don't believe in dominating and using mechanical means and then resorting to them for hours on this horse.

That's not what this thread was started about. No one is saying "better". Pat freely admits that the methods he uses are from others. While you may have run into someone that says it the only way to train. Most following Parelli chose to show by example.

There are many out there that have their favorite trainer and method. Many of the trainers in the US probably would translate well elsewhere but that doesn't mean their methods are wrong.

I'll let you get the last word in here because that seems to be your concern. You keep kissing up here and telling them how much you are like them because you where raised in New England. I am sure they are buying that.

 

[baymareb]

You keep kissing up here and telling them how much you are like them because you where raised in New England. I am sure they are buying that.

lol "keep telling them." Yes, that's what I'm doing - I must have mentioned it a dozen or more times. Oh, wait, it was once - to point out that not all Americans come from the wild west. And who is "they?"

Never mind - you're letting me have the last word. How gallant!

 

[AmyMay]

What's with the poltergeist reference?

More like salem witch-hunt!

I honestly can't see that this post has become a witch hunt. Just a discussion between a bunch of people who are shocked at what they saw, and the descriptions given vs one or two of you who are not shocked. Most of us are really struggling to understand what was trying to be achieved, and why PP went so far left of what he aspouses to be his way of doing things.

Rather than comming on here and throwing around accusations of witch hunts and slander (there has been none, perhaps conflicting information from RW and those that were actually there.....) why not try to explain to people what exactly was supposed to be happening - and why it was supposed to work..........

 

[brighteyes]

I'm not sure why RW's statement is more valid than that of ponydentist (or his wife) as the latter both watched the demo from start to finish. The vet, I presume, was called in afterwards. Robert may have watched it all, that seems unclear, but there were a couple of others on this thread who were, for at least some of the time, in the audience. Their reports also need consideration.

I am certain that neither of the videos showing footage of PP and Catwalk are helpful in deciding whether what occurred on Friday evening was inhumane, unnecessary or even produced a successful outcome in terms of the objective of the session.

The horse was further worked on during the following day, behind the scenes so to speak, but not behind closed doors, as there was a witness to this (unbeknowns to PP anyway) for some while. I would imagine a vet would have been notified about that.

As yet, I'm not too uncomfortable with what went on because it is all second hand to me and the videos twisted it in different directions. The OP was
just wondering if anyone else watched the demo and would like to comment. It was further qualified with Open minds only please for sensible discussion. which in places has been overlooked as personal views about PNH have overwhelmed some people's objectivity.

I am still waiting for the 'no holds barred', fully-narrated, close up and personal entire footage before I make MY mind up. I am perfectly capable of doing this without biased reports irrelevant anecdotes, personal differences with PP/NH, pure speculation, rumour and everything else.

I'm sure the OP would allow me to differ, if the conclusions I reach are not in accordance with his own views, as I will discuss it sensibly without going off on crazy tangents.

 

[brighteyes]

I honestly can't see that this post has become a witch hunt. Just a discussion between a bunch of people who are shocked at what they saw, and the descriptions given vs one or two of you who are not shocked. Most of us are really struggling to understand what was trying to be achieved, and why PP went so far left of what he aspouses to be his way of doing things.

Rather than comming on here and throwing around accusations of witch hunts and slander (there has been none, perhaps conflicting information from RW and those that were actually there.....) why not try to explain to people what exactly was supposed to be happening - and why it was supposed to work..........

I have already had this discussion and although I would STILL like to see an unexpurgated edition of the whole thing, I am fully prepared to try and see what was intended, although wouldn't make any promises not to be uneasy or against any one part of it, have a positive feeling about it as a whole nor expect a positive outcome. This is simply because the extent of the damage done previously and this horse's personality etc are unknown factors.

But I am not going to condemn it out of hand.

Ponydentist is a bit rubbish at putting things down on paper and I can see he's getting frustrated. Thankfully, he has the patience of a saint with horses...

 

[AmyMay]

By JHL: Pony Dentist who was there and saw the demo in it's entirety gets ridiculed for posting what he and his wife saw.

Not sure he's been ridiculed - just questioned. He was not the only person who was there who has commented on this thread..............

 

[vandypip]

All this left brain, right brain stuff is very interesting. Perhaps practitioners should examine their own particular mindsets before operating and considering whether their own behavioural characteristics are symptomatic with each individual equine.

 

[Crackerz]

Urgghhh, i got a bit of bile rise in my throat reading the past 10 pages that i was behind on.

2 of my very close friends were there, who's opinions always mirror my own. Thier account of it, and the short clips i've seen, imo, allow me to comment as i already have in this post.

I have a rig and a stallion at the yard, who live together. The rig is very dominant, always has been. But never, ever dominant to a human. The stallion is much younger, and although is submissive, doesn't get 'walked' over by the rig. I've spent 13years working with the rig. He was a 6yold when i got him on my 13th birthday, unbroken. You can appreciate the hard work, effort and understanding that i went through to get him broken, out competing and winning when i was that young. Any bullying would have resulted in me probably ending up in hospital. Everything was done sympathetically and carefully, whilst not faffing. I can do anything with him, he dotes on me, he's my shadow and i'm his 'leader' so to speak, but he retains his character.

I've spent endless hours just sat in the field watching these 2 ponies interact, how much differently they interact together than my geldings & mares. Identifying what makes them tick, what tips them over the edge, how they react when they put one another under pressure etc.

I could wind the rig up to the point he'd over-react and hurt me, i know how his mind works. I like that, i like the fact he hasn't lost his heart, soul and everything about him. I like he retains it all but chooses not to use it against me. It's his spirit and i'd never ever take that away from him, or any other horse.


I once had a TB that didn't make the grade in the racing industry. When i brought her into work, she would throw herself around at the sight of a bridle, double barrel at me and white eyes would be apparent. After a full vet check, and getting the news that it was all 'in her mind' i started work.
Would i ever have expected her to 'be cured' in a demo, with floodlights and loads of people watching? No. I'd NEVER have inflicted such thing on her. 10 weeks it took, from trying to floor me (well, the bridle) to allowing the bridle on in her terms, and the most restraint used was someone holding her to stop her whipping round to buck at me.
She's the most extreme horse i've worked with, handling wise, but not the only problem horse i've come across.

I'm not a miracle worker by all means, never claimed to be, never will be. But i know for a fact, that the 'intelligent' man that PP is, he should have stopped the demo when he realised how difficult it was going to be.

My slightly rambling, slightly off topic post's point is, PD, not everyone is narrow minded, or sells on a difficult horse, or results to violence. There are plenty of people who choose to sort the problems, successfully, with or without help. To say people that disagree with Fridays demo are 'stuck in their own little worlds' is very patronising!

I've seen some terrible sights in my mere 20 years of horse ownership, and no doubt you've seen alot more. But that doesn't give you the right to be so patronising

 

[Natch]

Naturally, can I ask you a question? Well, I'll ask anyway...

As I've gathered you dab in NH, so thought you'll be qualified to tell me:

Do you really, truly believe that your horse thinks you are another horse?

Lol! No-ooooo I don't. I just think that we're trying to train 1/2 a ton of muscle, and its a good idea to try to make that as easy for the 1/2 ton of muscle as possible by trying to make our training language as easy to understand as possible for them.

Incidentaly I think the whole NH and all the other approaches are incredibly flawed. Since when does a horse in the wild move away when you put pressure on their skin? Body language pressure from a herd leader or bully, yes, but for the skin we have to teach the horse that, as their nautral reaction is to push back.

 

[martlin]

7HL, I'm slightly disappointed with you, we had a decent discussion going, then you swan in and bring up a ridiculous argument
Believe me, not everybody here is 'upset' and 'distressed' by PP conduct.
I for one, think it was wrong at many levels, I don't want to bring the word abuse into it - that seems to be open to interpretation.
I think it was wrong, regardless of the horse being injured or not, bad taste, bad judgement, even unethical and certainly hypocritical.
Both PP and RW have certain level of responsibility to the public - it was a public demo and as such has been 'judged' and people are entitled to explanation.

PS. Will somebody from the NH (broadly speaking) crowd answer my question, please? It was a serious question, I really would like to know if you truly believe that your horse sees you as another horse...

 

[siennamum]

I really like your reply Crackerz & really like your description of your relationship with your horses. I think mine is like that. Sometimes my older mare has a bit of a laugh at my expense and I rarely sanction anything she does any more. She has earned the right to make many of her own decisions - they are almost always right.

When she is approached by one of her friendly people, she doesn't go glazed over and stand a respectful distance away. Instead she often hooks her nose around you and requests a mutual grooming session. She will sniff and lick your face & neck and I grab the opportunity to kiss her on the muzzle. Her body language is completely at odds with anything I see from Parelli trained horses, that itself makes me suspicious of the relationships these people have with their horses. My mare will compete successfully in any discipline to the very best of her abilities, and tries her heart out for her rider btw, she is alo a wonderful schoolmistress & would carry a toddler down the M4 in complete safety. I wouldn't humiliate her by making her do tricks tho.

I have a young, colty, gelding. He is very concerned if you so much as look at his legs, especially that special spot above the knee on his front legs, and I'm well aware why Ponydentist.

I could probably have forced him to submit to me & he is very responsive to dominance & submission games. I can't really be bothered tho. He will learn in time, what is expected of him and will end up as happy to be around people as the mare. I just think he has to arrive at that understanding in his own time. If I wanted to demand he does as I say and accept my absolute authority I could probs adopt an approach like PP's and get him there in a week. I am old fashioned tho and think horses have the right to some self respect and to make their own decisions, it makes them better at their jobs.

 

[Natch]

PS. Will somebody from the NH (broadly speaking) crowd answer my question, please? It was a serious question, I really would like to know if you truly believe that your horse sees you as another horse...

See above No, I don't think the majority of people who practice NH believe that they can hoodwink their horse into thinking they are another horse.

 

[martlin]

Lol! No-ooooo I don't. I just think that we're trying to train 1/2 a ton of muscle, and its a good idea to try to make that as easy for the 1/2 ton of muscle as possible by trying to make our training language as easy to understand as possible for them.

Incidentaly I think the whole NH and all the other approaches are incredibly flawed. Since when does a horse in the wild move away when you put pressure on their skin? Body language pressure from a herd leader or bully, yes, but for the skin we have to teach the horse that, as their nautral reaction is to push back.

Thanks
I generally agree with your sentiments, just was checking if I got it right, as there are so many references to natural behaviour between horses etc.

For me, the alfa horse impersonation is very flawed indeed:
for starters, we want to be the leader at all times, don't want are leadership disputed periodically.
I, for one, want my horses to behave for any human, not just me as their alfa If they believed I'm part of the heard (even alfa), then my new groom, introduced to the heard, would be put at the bottom of the pecking order - no good I'm afraid!
thus I teach them to stick their head in a headcollar and follow whatever/whoever is at the end of the leadrope without standing on them

 

[Sarah1]

Ponydentist - ok you win, you're wonderful, PP is god and the rest of us should bow down to your superior knowledge & expertise & perhaps even just hand our horses over to you before we ruin them...now go away...you're boring me...

 

[siennamum]

Thanks
I generally agree with your sentiments, just was checking if I got it right, as there are so many references to natural behaviour between horses etc.

For me, the alfa horse impersonation is very flawed indeed:
for starters, we want to be the leader at all times, don't want are leadership disputed periodically.
I, for one, want my horses to behave for any human, not just me as their alfa If they believed I'm part of the heard (even alfa), then my new groom, introduced to the heard, would be put at the bottom of the pecking order - no good I'm afraid!
thus I teach them to stick their head in a headcollar and follow whatever/whoever is at the end of the leadrope without standing on them

I agree. I like to think I have ultimate authority. I would need to for safety's sake, but believe that the glue that binds horses & people is based more on a theory of friendship and respect which is earned by making a series of good decisions. I have read some Lucy Rees and unless I'm very much mistaken that is her thinking and makes lots of sense.

When I go and move my electric fence for the horses who are being strip grazed, and they see me as the leader who knows where the good food is, that is more of a reinforcer than any amount of bullying.

 

[Natch]

Thanks
I generally agree with your sentiments, just was checking if I got it right, as there are so many references to natural behaviour between horses etc.

For me, the alfa horse impersonation is very flawed indeed:
for starters, we want to be the leader at all times, don't want are leadership disputed periodically.
I, for one, want my horses to behave for any human, not just me as their alfa If they believed I'm part of the heard (even alfa), then my new groom, introduced to the heard, would be put at the bottom of the pecking order - no good I'm afraid!
thus I teach them to stick their head in a headcollar and follow whatever/whoever is at the end of the leadrope without standing on them

I agree with you.

I don't know any NH people who don't want their horse to be easy to handle with all people. I know a few traditional people who do... (hastily adds this is the minority on some ego trip)

I also think that horses suss out the new groom themselves, regardless of how they are trained. Correction: Its usually ponies, the horses I know are on the whole a dream to handle

 

[Natch]

When I go and move my electric fence for the horses who are being strip grazed, and they see me as the leader who knows where the good food is, that is more of a reinforcer than any amount of bullying.

Sorry, just had a chuckle to myself over this When I move elec fences back I always have the distinct impression that the horses are more of the opinion that I am a horrible opressor who starves them nearly to death all day long, and the only way they hang on to life is because we feed them just enough to keep them going, hence why they are always so starving and eager to get at the new grass ...

*tootles off to work, wondering if this means I have a mental attitude problem and should see the glass as half full more often... *

 

[siennamum]

Sorry, just had a chuckle to myself over this When I move elec fences back I always have the distinct impression that the horses are more of the opinion that I am a horrible opressor who starves them nearly to death all day long, and the only way they hang on to life is because we feed them just enough to keep them going, hence why they are always so starving and eager to get at the new grass ...

*tootles off to work, wondering if this means I have a mental attitude problem and should see the glass as half full more often... *

I think that attitude is completely disgraceful tbh and you should hang up your 12 ft line in shame. By admitting this you have completely denied all assertions that horses are robotic in their reactions and have gone so far as to think they may not all fit into clearly defined types. If you keep up this shocking laissez faire thinking you'll be saying next that they have personalities.

 

[Shysmum]

check out the thread "An invitation to RW " , a video by Chris Irwin.

 

[martlin]

I agree. I like to think I have ultimate authority. I would need to for safety's sake, but believe that the glue that binds horses & people is based more on a theory of friendship and respect which is earned by making a series of good decisions. I have read some Lucy Rees and unless I'm very much mistaken that is her thinking and makes lots of sense.

When I go and move my electric fence for the horses who are being strip grazed, and they see me as the leader who knows where the good food is, that is more of a reinforcer than any amount of bullying.

I think mine just put up with me
I make their life easy - ask questions they can answer and make the right solution easy and apparent I don't get angry - which doesn't mean I don't punish...
I tend to work around certain issues rather than confront everything head on, that's why, among other things, I thought that Catwalk's treatment was disgraceful.