Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

I haven't read all the responses so apologies if I am duplicating what has already been said. I worked with a gelding who was difficult to bridle. We used a bridle with bit clips so we could put the headpiece over his ears then attach the bit.

Someone at the yard decided that the horse was being naughty and attempted to teach him using force and a rope around his leg to accept the bridle. Their reasoning being that it needed to hurt when he didn't accept the bridle so the he would.

Needless to say all that happened was that this person and the other person in there with them got squashed against the stable wall. Luckily this was a generally kind horse who wouldn't deliberately hurt you.

I had to intervene although he wasn't mine before the individual truly lost his temper. After doing some research it transpired that the horse had painful aural plaques in his ears. They don't affect all horses. I bought some cream on the internet and although it was hard to get in at first after two weeks I was applying it without a headcollar.

Although he was never perfect with the bridle he certainly improved a lot.

I can't see how the methods employed by the P's could have any long term beneficial effect unless what you wanted was a horse that was frightened of coming into an arena.
 
martlin said:
I think mine just put up with me;)
I make their life easy - ask questions they can answer and make the right solution easy and apparent:) I don't get angry - which doesn't mean I don't punish...
I tend to work around certain issues rather than confront everything head on, that's why, among other things, I thought that Catwalk's treatment was disgraceful.
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Zoomy is generally a really good girl and tries hard to please......she's very sensitive though. The only thing she gets told off for is rearing. She doesn't go right up and it is usually her way of saying 'I don't understand!' but it's not acceptable.

She has a big scar on her ears and is a bit funny about me touching them sometimes (eg trimming). So I simply don't trim her ears!!!!!! SIMPLES!

When she had fly bites in her ears and they needed to be cleaned, I twitched her, she fell asleep and cleaned them and then gave her a carrot.

My friends horse was horrible to bridle. We used to just take the bridle apart, slip it over his head and then slip the bit in. It wasn't massively ideal but he accepted that way of bridling without distress so it seemed silly to try and force him to have it on any other way!

I don't really understand why there is ever any need to pull a horse to the ground and cause him distress, when the issue can be worked around with little distress to horse or handler?? :confused:
 
Can the person (chris something) who said that Catwalk is fine, riding out everyday etc, please answer the question that was asked.....How are they getting Catwalks bridle on?

Thanks
 
ponydentist said:
So what do you understand about the techniques and rationale and pyscology being used in this particular instance then ?
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Technique = deprive horse of both fight and flight options for long enough in the belief that it will eventually shut down.
Rationale - I am god and my minions must continue to believe so.
Pyscology - Win at any cost. Any method used can be explained away later to the believers. The heathens dont matter.
 
How many PETA members posting here?
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! We now talking about the charity who believes that no animals should be pets and if you hand in a stray at their centres they would rather put it down than rehome it? Yes, I'm sure people on here who do horrible evil things like, OMG, sit on a horse!! would be members of that kind of charity.

Sorry, that made me chuckle rather a lot :D
 
This thread really ought to wrap up now. Nobody is really interested. Parelli made a big mistake and linda's violence is evident in video posted on you tube. Just don't pay for it!!
 
I think we need to be realistic here about what constitute's 'cruelty' in the eyes of the law.

If you could be prosecuted for restraining a horse by a limb, why not by head, mouth(via reins & bit) or nose?

Likewise, if you could be prosecuted for tack causing a minor lesion on the horse, a lot of us would be very worried - my own horse has a small girth gall AND a rub from a brushing boot currently!

It boils down to you either would or wouldn't apply these techniques to your horse. Nothing more. Chillax!
 
martlin said:
snip,
Believe me, not everybody here is 'upset' and 'distressed' by PP conduct.I for one, think it was wrong at many levels, I don't want to bring the word abuse into it - that seems to be open to interpretation.
I think it was wrong, regardless of the horse being injured or not, bad taste, bad judgement, even unethical and certainly hypocritical.
Both PP and RW have certain level of responsibility to the public - it was a public demo and as such has been 'judged' and people are entitled to explanation.
Snip.
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That pretty much sums up my thinking on this .

PS. Concerning language: I have been known to tell my Greyhounds to " Whoa!" and my horse to "Stay!", using the same handsignals .
 
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ponydentist said:
How many of you have ever watched Ceaser Millan.....the dog whisperer??/


Who has ever seen him take a dog which will not back down and put it on its back in a submissive posture and place his fingers into its throat and hold it there for a time??? CRuel man......hes Abusing that dog.......report him ..

Who says that Catwalks leg was hobbled above the knee as a restraint??? restraint for what?? at NO TIME during the short moments that the leg was temporarily incapacitated in this manner was any attempt made to put a bridle or anything else on the horse. the trainer stood back from the horse....gave him time to adjust to the situation which he did without ANY stress, fear or anxiety (he lowered the held up leg to the floor for a split second. In his mind the leg was gone or totally useless and that was it....accepted end of.....when the trainer realised that the horse had acceoted this....hey resto he flipped a rope and the horse had his leg given back to him....can anyone see the pyscology involved??? How was this seen as RESTRAINT....restraing to do WHAT?? it wasnt done in that context.....this was a master horseman using techniques with well grounded and researched methodology to ask a horse to start thinking in its limted capacity to think. Remember horses live totally in the here and now....they have no forward thought...but do have excellent long and short term memory processing ability.They have to learn much quicker than a lot of animals....or die. Any lights comming on yet??

Other use of the rope during other parts of the demo were also thought provoking tried and tested and sucessfull methods which cause absolute minimum impact to the horse welfare.
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Sorry, but the dog whisperer is not a great example to use! his methods are old fashioned and outdated and in some cases abuse. I have read posts in the dog section about him and know some people her think highly of him, but I dont. IMO, him and PP are the same type.
 
Originally Posted by ponydentist
You have seen a few different horsemen then .....some of who use "NH" some of who dont....Gawani Pony boy......( the jewish guy who poses as a native American)....hmmmmm.

Is that the same as an old horse-wrangler posing as the Messiah?
 
ponydentist said:
How many of you have ever watched stallions fight when fighting for supremacy?? What do they try to to do to each others legs??/ in particular the foreleg?? What is the thing a horse treasures most (body part) and what part of the body are horse most reluctant to let anyone or anything touch, handle or incapcitate???? Are we getting there yet anyone???? Any lights comming on in empty heads??/
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So if I (in my empty-headedness LOL) interpret what you are saying correctly, PP was trying to behave towards this stallion in the same way as another stallion would during a fight (i.e. by incapacitating the forelegs, although that's actually more common among asses than Equus caballus - the latter are more likely to rear in an attempt to knock the rival over - and that's usually during less serious fighting. In really serious fights biting at the head and neck, or attempting to kick the rival's head, are more common.). Do you really think this would be sensible behaviour (assuming, that is, that the horse understood it in horse terms, not just as a two-legged thing trying to incapacitate him)? If the stallion did understand PP's behaviour in horse terms, what do you think he would do? If he was an exceptionally well-behaved (or naive) stallion, he might react as Catwalk did - and PP would be damned lucky (as he was with Catwalk). If he tried it with a less tolerant stallion, he might well be toast. I don't care how 'alpha' (a bogus concept if ever there was one) PP thinks he can make himself, he can't take on a full-grown, mature stallion like that and expect to win. As it was, Catwalk did rear to try to get away, but that's just what any self-respecting horse would do in that situation.

Both our stallions are sweet-natured, well-behaved boys, who are a dream to handle; but I tell you what: if anyone did to either of them what PP did to Catwalk, he'd end up splattered all over the yard. And I wouldn't blame the stallion one bit.

No wonder PP has such a negative 'take' on stallions: his ideas about them (as well as the whole alpha-dominance nonsense) are not just half-baked, they aren't even in the oven.
 
I feel this thread should only wrap up when we have the answers we are all looking for ;

- an outcome from the BHS
- an outcome from the RSPCA
- a statement from Robert Whitaker
- a statement from Pat Parelli
- possible proceedings under the Animal Welfare Act 1996

This was a serious incident, and I feel we owe it to the horse world to chase this up, if only to prevent it from happening in the UK again. Until we know what is/isn't being done, a lot of people will still be very uneasy.

sm x
 
Chris Irwin has posted an invitation to Robert Whittaker on You Tube, he will fly to the UK at his own expense to work kindly with Catwalk on this problem.
People are slating him as publicity-seeking, but he is a man who is secure in his success and he really wouldn't need to stoop to stunts, he has already made his name. I think someone who knows Robert should direct him to that and take Chris up on the offer.
Sadly though, by now Catwalk is probably "accepting" being bridled, as he was already showing signs of shutting down in the video taken after the main demo.
For me this is not about whether the treatment Catwalk got worked or not, eventually it will. It's about how much violent treatment of a horse is justified and using the kindest and fairest approach to help a horse over their problems. This was neither kind or fair. (And should be a warning to all to never leave their horse in the hands of Pat Parelli).
 
Hmm. I've seen that second Stoneleigh video.

I found Catwalk's change in behaviour disingenuous. Curious whether PP would be able to emulate that at an affiliated event.
 
How can a horse's behaviour be disingenous (lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere). With horses what you see is what you get. Bit confused by that post.
 
If someone posted on here -'Help, i have just bought a seriously head shy horse, how do i get his bridle on?' Which would be the best approach-

1) Put the horse in a large arena. Surround the arena by people coughing, talking and taking photos. Boom music out over the loud speakers. Run a rope under the lip, ensuring you draw blood. Wrap a rope around the horses front leg and get a couple of people to hold on tight. Make sure you pull harder when the horse reverses to get away. Carry on for at least 2 hours.

OR

2) Is there another way? :confused:

No 2 may not make as much money as no 1. No 2 may also take more time. No 2 wont be as sensational, nor as romantic or theatrical without the music. No 2 wont massage the ego very much.

No 1 it is then!:rolleyes:
 
teddyt said:
If someone posted on here -'Help, i have just bought a seriously head shy horse, how do i get his bridle on?' Which would be the best approach-

1) Put the horse in a large arena. Surround the arena by people coughing, talking and taking photos. Boom music out over the loud speakers. Run a rope under the lip, ensuring you draw blood. Wrap a rope around the horses front leg and get a couple of people to hold on tight. Make sure you pull harder when the horse reverses to get away. Carry on for at least 2 hours.

OR

2) Is there another way? :confused:

No 2 may not make as much money as no 1. No 2 may also take more time. No 2 wont be as sensational, nor as romantic or theatrical without the music. No 2 wont massage the ego very much.

No 1 it is then!:rolleyes:
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Love it :D
 
vandypip said:
You really are pathetic!!!
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My word, this strong statement will sort everyone out, won't it?

Gosh, i'm trembling at the knees as I type...

Dear, if you haven't got anything more constructive to say, then you really won't hold any credence in a debate, will you?

Run along now, and let the grown-ups get on with the things that they know best....
 
siennamum said:
I think that attitude is completely disgraceful tbh and you should hang up your 12 ft line in shame. By admitting this you have completely denied all assertions that horses are robotic in their reactions and have gone so far as to think they may not all fit into clearly defined types. If you keep up this shocking laissez faire thinking you'll be saying next that they have personalities.
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... Don't you mean "Horseanility" :D

Yes, I joined the forum JUST to comment on this issue - (gasp :eek:). I've been lurking since it started and I am not a member of PETA, if that makes any difference.

When I first read about and saw Parelli NH, I thought it seemed like a good concept. Then I saw how much money they wanted for their equipment and DVD's! Then I saw the video of Linda Parelli yanking on the leadline of a horse that clearly didn't have a clue of why it was being handled that way and what was being asked of it. Finally, I see Pat Parelli seemingly mishandling a horse, against what he publicly says that they doesn't do! My opinion of them as 'horse professionals' has taken a nosedive.

Reminds me of a saying that my mom says, "A fool and his money are soon parted"!
 
I think what mtj was getting at was that the Parelli crew were being disingenuous in displaying the 'change' in Catwalk's behaviour - am I right, mtj?
 
vandypip said:
Dragonslayer, you are an even bigger a******e. The rest of the world has moved on!! Little miss brain cell follow suit and astound everybody with your astute wisdom to end this now boring debate!!! bet you are not even capable.
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Why should we end this debate? we are interested in it,just becose you dont like it dosent mean the rest of us dont.
How rude you are
 
My point is that I would like to see that repeated under all circumstances required for affiliated competition.

Reckon, Admin would prefer me not to spell out my point. Sorry, you are going to have have to figure this out for yourself.
 
Surely,anyone who is not interested in this thread does not need to read it or add to it. I only joined today but may well not bother anymore if this is what happens. There seem to be some very silly, childish and rude comments.
A forum like this is supposed to be for debate and peoples views, not rude name calling.
 
vandypip, I think it's time you just stopped logging into this thread now. This is of serious concern for a huge number of people, and to be insulting to them is just - words fail me. I hope that your comments are removed. I am determined to know what is going to happen, as are most of the people on this forum. Who are you to tell us what we should/should not do ? This forum is being read internationally, and it is you who looks the complete numpty.

Itsmylife - please don't leave !! There are only a few who are showing their age. The vast majority of people are interested in everyone else's views - and that includes yours. Btw, welcome to the forum :D
 
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