Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

[Bramley]

I am still furious to. I have a great friend who is a Parelli instructer who is standing up for him and refuses to see what he did. I am sure the parelli followers are brainwashed , like a religious cult with him as God and all good sense leaves them. I taught her for years to love and respect her horses and all that seems to have gone out the window!

 

[Tinypony]

I can place a rope around any of my horses' legs and place their feet where I need to. It is not cruel - nor different to placing a restraint on the horse's head.

That's not what happened with Catwalk though is it? Have you looked at the videos that are available? I too can "lead my horse by the leg", all of my horses, any leg, any direction. The difference is that my horses didn't go through plunging about with two people hanging on the rope to acheive that.
I agree with you that there are some exagerated rumours flying around about this incident. However, there are also some short videos to be seen, and even though they are poor quality, they are clear enough to show some of the work with Catwalk. Will you allow people to object to what they have seen with their own eyes on those videos?
I hope that Pat P is proud enough of what he did to release the full 2+ hours of work in that first session. Then the speculation can stop, because people will be able to see for themselves. Just as they could see Linda working with the one-eyed horse on the Level 1 instructional DVD I guess. (They may interpret what they see differently, but that's another story.)

 

[showjumperxo]

parelli is an absolute pile of w**k!
the horse was obviously upset by the 'experience' and if i'm right, it wasn't allowed to jump the next day?

they shouldn't be allowed near horses.

 

[tictactoe]

Hello everyone, I am new to this (so much so that it took me 3 attempts to register )
For now I just want to say hello, and say that I have read a lot of the posts, got to page 121 , and did mean to finish, but jee whizz it takes time.
I will say that I have been pleased by some comments, views and honesty, and yes giggled at some too, and worried by some words that can only be aimed to cause problems, although, free speach and all.
I will prob say how I feel too, but for now, partly because it took me soooooooooooo long to register that I cant remember most recent posts , and the time of night, I will say goodnight to all, uk, usa and any other country on here (still find it really cool that I can chat with someone so far away with such ease, yes I can be a little saft a times )

 

[zefragile]

parelli is an absolute pile of w**k!
the horse was obviously upset by the 'experience' and if i'm right, it wasn't allowed to jump the next day?

they shouldn't be allowed near horses.

Erm, the horse "wasn't allowed to jump the next day?"... where did you find that out?

 

[amandap]

Why does this matter? Because it's a major obstacle to PNH improving. I really want to see Parelli improve, to extend into areas previously shunned, to be less dogmatic about certain approaches. The system has much to commend it in terms of connecting with members and the quality of its teaching materials. I know it has helped a lot of people; I would like it to help horses more, much more. But how can it do that effectively if it is convinced of its own infallibility to the degree it appears to be?!

ROFL! I cannot believe what I'm reading I'm afraid. Parelli is based on what you call 'dominance games' so what on earth you could possibly see to commend it is a very odd thing for you to write imo! You do not believe that dominance in any shape or form plays any useful part in horse society or training from my reading and understanding of your posts so how can you see any good in any NH?? All NH is based on dominance in my understanding so my understanding of your opinion is that all NH is fundamentally flawed, even bad and wrong. So to say you wish any of it to improve is rather condescending and hypocritical. Connecting with owners is done through 'shows' and the modern love of things/equipment all things where helping the horse is not necessarily the aim... ie. teaching is. I imagine you wish it were wiped from the face of the earth surely???

I go much further if I'm to continue to submit to this view (that dominance is irrelevant or non existant) and say that we humans have NO business or right whatsoever to USE any animals because it involves us interferring with them, influencing them, controlling them, confining then and inhibiting them. Where this becomes abuse is only a human individual idea depending what your beliefs are and where your bottom line is... imo any captivity/use of animals is abuse.

'It depends' is no longer acceptable to me if I accept that dominance is not an ethical part of my life with my horses.
I'm frequently called hypocritical these days (fair enough) especially by people like leogeorge but aren't we ALL and don't we ALL rationalize things to make what we do alright and acceptable??? Or am I a hypoctrite because I don't see certain things the way some others do??

 

[leogeorge]

I'm frequently called hypocritical these days (fair enough) especially by people like leogeorge


I'm sorry???? I suppose if you were one of those who defended Montys use of the buckstop recently and is now disgusted by what PP did to catwalk, then yes you would be a bit of a hypocrit, but I can't remember if you did, so therefore not aimed at you directly.

 

[amandap]

I would be one who was called a hypoctrite about Monty's use of the buckstopper and Monty's methods as a whole on many, many occasions despite me also saying what I wouldn't personally do in his methods. But then I haven't hardly past any comment about PP because I haven't studied PP and I wasn't there so perhaps I'm only a 3/4 hypocrite?. Hopefully these incidents and discussions will put a stop to shows, clinics and any exhibitions by humans using horses... in fact hopefully people will stop using horses (and other animals) to amuse and 'better' themselves full stop no matter what reasons and excuses humans try to say that it's justifiable.

I was speaking of my 'former' belief that occasionally discomfort and pain is justifiable but now after my thoughts about 'it depends' have been 'shaped', I think we need to ask if any animal keeping is justifiable if none of us are to be hypocritical.

People who are consitantly nasty and abusive to and about people and not prepared to use the extreme postive approach they use with horses with humans as well are imo hypocritcal.

It's so easy to blame and dismiss Trainers for teaching what some believe are 'bad' methods but I believe it's high time we as owners took the full responsibility that is ours and ours alone when we buy or become a carer of any animal. We as owners are ultimately responsible for the horses in our care not some Trainer or Behaviourist or even Vet or other professional... it is up to us to learn about horses and individual 'professionals' who may be involved with our horses and make choices and take responsibility ourselves for those choices.
We can all sit here and blame a Trainer, a Vet, a Trimmer, a Farrier etc. but who employed them?? Who allowed them near our horses??
If we get it wrong, learn and move on but blame gets us no where except push this responsiblity away from ourselves.
NH and all Trainers will die a death naturally if they have nothing but bad training to offer when and only when owners get informed and get to know their horses.

I personally am one who likes to focus on the horse itself for lessons but now my experiences and beliefs are thrown out as untrue and some sort of fanciful 'story' because it makes me feel good I am left in a no mans land because I just cannot feel at all comfortable with keeping horses at all with this new found knowledge because there should be no compromise if we truly wish to 'help' horses.
This is my problem I know but for me compromise at any level in terms of another animal has now become unethical.

 

[Caledonia]

Why are you putting words into my mouth, Caledonia?

I didn't?

This is my real objection to this whole thread. As golfgirl is saying, there are those who have used this incident for their own anti-Parelli campaign, distorting what may very well have been a regrettable incident - I cannot say because I was not there and the fact that no-one is prosecuting PP for what happened rather belies some of the histrionic posting on this thread.

From the section of your prose I have highlighted in black, by your own definition you are no more entitled to an opinion than the rest of us.

I most certainly am not using this sole incident as an anti-Parelli campaign, there is much I dislike about Parelli, this was yet another incidence of their hypocrisy. I also don't recall being histrionic at any stage?

There are also others who do not seem to understand what "natural" means in the context of Parelli. I'd advise them to take the time to study a little of it so they can become more enlightened. Nothing that we do with horses is natural to them. For me the "natural" part is communicating our wishes to the horse using the language he understands - body language. just my humble opinion.

So, tying up the leg and using a gumline is body language? Seriously, listen to yourself.

I would not personally use a gumline on a horse - but I don't know what led up to one being used. I have never seen PP use one before and I have seen a great deal of his pulications of all sorts.

Lucky he just happened to have one to hand on this particular occasion, huh?

I do know that stallions can be very aggressive and some need to be handled with great expertise. Again, I don't know what this horse was like which led to it being gumlined.

That is a sweeping statement and not relevant in the case of this horse, at no point is he said to have shown any aggression, merely a desire to avoid PP.

I once saw another famous handler use one to teach a horse not to buck - the horse came up against his own pressure and never bucked again. Job done, whether you support the means to the end or not. It was the saving of the horse's life, I feel, as previously the horse was unrideable.

Totally irrelevant in this instance. This horse's problem was not endangering either his life or his future.

Many people who work with horses, whether professional or amateur, used "natural" horsemanship to a greater or lesser extent. Some may not even realise that they are doing it. It is not some mystical cult, and it is unfair of the hate brigade to condemn the entire ethic on the basis of something that most of them didn't even witness. Cut out the hysterics and
keep to the realistic facts, IMHO

Please credit us with some intelligence. I think most of the detractors are fully aware it is not remotely mystical, it's simply another way of making horses do what humans want them to. However, the facts are he used force and methods totally against his supposed ethos that he preaches.

 

[EAST KENT]

COULD SOMEONE EXPLAIN PLEASE exactly WHAT A GUM LINE IS AND HOW IT IS APPLIED /WORKS?

 

[amandap]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5O4JHJhiUE

I'll only comment here that as long as humans continue to say, 'stop my horse bucking by tomorrow or my horse goes to be shot' then there will be people who will use this and similar devices.

 

[skewbald_again]

What tickles me is all this Pat says this and Linda says that whereas Monty did this malarkey. First name terms LOL. Are you all best chums with these marketing experts?
For that is what they are. I have known know several toothless old buggers who have forgotten more about horses than either of them ever knew or will ever know, and willingly shared their knowledge without a dvd or gadget in sight. Cost me a pint or two and a lot of swallowed pride as they weren't known for being either polite or PC.

 

[jahseh]

COULD SOMEONE EXPLAIN PLEASE exactly WHAT A GUM LINE IS AND HOW IT IS APPLIED /WORKS?

I don't know for certain but I am fairly sure in this case it is simply a smooth looped rope, which in this instance would be a 'savvy string' the same thing found on the end of a 'carrot stick' which all parelli professionals carry all the time either in a pocket or looped through a belt loop etc. The looped rope would then be put in the mouth and be able to take the place of a bit and curb or bit and drop noseband?

 

[tictactoe]

OMG just wrote, in my opinion some intersting things, and lost it when posting
ok, I'll try again.
Tho would be happier if someone would ask me things cuz its much easier than writing own stuff out of my head, cuz I waffle like a fruit loop, and use saying after saying and get lost in my own words. But... I will use, many roads lead to rome. Horses for courses. And, one mans cold is another mans cancer.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I feel that Pat Parelli was pressurized to train this stallion in an allotted time which made him lose his patience. Everyone makes mistakes, his program does change horses and I feel that it's maybe unfair to make this much fuss when many people turn a blind eye to much worse abuse of horses everyday. Robert Whitaker hasn't stepped up and complained ...

Sorry - but that's plain rubbish.

1. If Prelli felt 'pressured' - who by?? He selects the horses he will use in HIS demos - if he thought it was unsuitable he wouldn't have used it! BUT, it was RW's expensive problem horse - he saw kudos in 'sorting' a horse RW couldn't - so common sense went out the window.

2. A trainer who loses patience because he can't get the response he wants when he wants it is not FIT to be called a trainer - let alone to preach to others!

3. There IS far worse abuse every day of the week, sadly. What made this SO wrong is that Prat Parelli has tens of thousands of naive followers who hang on his every word. They see HIM publicly abusing a horse (and there is quite a bit of abuse within the Prat Parelli 'system') and figure it's ok because Prat does it!

The basic underlying flaw in the Prat P system is the idea of 'dominance'! You CAN'T 'dominate' a horse that has ANYTHING about it WITHOUT using brute strength or gadgets - you can dress them up with fancy names but they are still tools that allow you to FORCE a horse to submit!

 

[Archiehorse]

All I can say is: disgraceful. I had no preconceptions about Parelli and in fact have looked at their website with interest a few times. But having watched the video, the only way to describe it is abuse.

Next time I see them advertising at Olympia (or whichever other horsey event they happen to be adverstising at) I will be telling them exactly that - loudly and publicly. Lets see how good that is for business...

 

[Tinypony]

Go back a page and amandap has posted a link to a Monty Roberts video that explains exactly what a gumline is, and how he uses one. It works by pressure on the gums, not the tongue or bars of the mouth like a bit.

 

[galaxy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by EAST KENT
COULD SOMEONE EXPLAIN PLEASE exactly WHAT A GUM LINE IS AND HOW IT IS APPLIED /WORKS?

posted by Jayseh
I don't know for certain but I am fairly sure in this case it is simply a smooth looped rope, which in this instance would be a 'savvy string' the same thing found on the end of a 'carrot stick' which all parelli professionals carry all the time either in a pocket or looped through a belt loop etc. The looped rope would then be put in the mouth and be able to take the place of a bit and curb or bit and drop noseband?




No it's not as above.

A "gum line" works the same as a commanche calmer. If you google it you'll see they're for sale in most tackshops as an alternative to a twitch.

A gum line is inserted into the mouth and lays ontop on the gum above the teeth below the lip and then comes out the other sise. To have the desired effect (of a twitch) only slight gentle pressure needs to be used. PP USED IT COMPLETELY INCORRECTLY!!!!!!!!! I have used a commanche clamer as an alternative to a twitch and never left a mark on my horse.

A gum line/commanche calmer is completely different to a buck stop for those people who are trying to compare them. A buck stop yes goes under the top lip but never has the action of a twitch. It has no action at all unless the horse puts it's head down and bronks when it will experience discomfort.

I have also seen a buck stop used (and after 2 attempts the horse never bucked again!) and it also never marked the horse.

 

[Tinypony]

Maybe you should watch the video, Monty Roberts starts by saying "So, the buckstopper is a gumline..." (ect)
I think Pat P may have been using his gumline with the same intention as a buckstopper, in other words so that the horse would only feel it if it did the "wrong" thing. If that is the case then I guess he was using it correctly. I doubt he was intending to use it as a twitch, but maybe that will get clarified one day. "Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult" is a phrase used quite frequently in Parelli training.

 

[baymareb]

What tickles me is all this Pat says this and Linda says that whereas Monty did this malarkey. First name terms LOL. Are you all best chums with these marketing experts?

Okay, this made me literally laugh out loud. How true it is!

I have known know several toothless old buggers who have forgotten more about horses than either of them ever knew or will ever know, and willingly shared their knowledge without a dvd or gadget in sight. Cost me a pint or two and a lot of swallowed pride as they weren't known for being either polite or PC.

And how true THIS is. Couldn't agree more. Our old blacksmith from when I was a kid was wonderful with horses, kept teams of Belgians that he competed with in pulling contests and all the years I knew him, I don't think I ever heard him raise his voice to a horse or saw him lose his patience.

Of course, he's retired now and lives in poverty. If only he'd had the sense to put out a bunch of DVD's.

 

[Tinypony]

I've got advice from the toothless old buggers and all sorts of people, including some who I have paid for the benefit of their experience and skill. I don't actually object to paying someone for their time and help. Personally, I try not to work for free.
If it makes any difference to anything, which I don't think it does, I have been on first name terms with Pat and Linda Parelli in the past, having spent time with them and done some work for them. Doesn't make me best mates with them, but I don't see a problem with using their first names in a discussion where it's bliddy obvious who is being refered to.

 

[tictactoe]

It will die on it's own.

H&H shouldn't delete it or close it. They would then say Parelli got them to close it down.

how would we ever know.

Do you know if Michael Jackson is dead ?
Do you know how much money Richard Branson has ?
Do you know if Brad Pitt was actually voted sexiest man alive?
Do you know if the ozone layer is going to collapse ?

all of whats written, spoken or seen can be manipulated. Have you ever played chinese whispers or been around when 5 unconnected people describe the same accident, with different facts. Who knows whats "true" or "fiction" but, this is a good place to speak about what we all would like to say, cuz to chat is good, to discuss is good, to debate is good, even to read the bad spellings is good so lets not start saying what should or shouldnt be done with this forum, and then who did or didnt do it, cuz, well, we all have the right to free speach

 

[galaxy]

Maybe you should watch the video, Monty Roberts starts by saying "So, the buckstopper is a gumline..." (ect)
I think Pat P may have been using his gumline with the same intention as a buckstopper, in other words so that the horse would only feel it if it did the "wrong" thing. If that is the case then I guess he was using it correctly. I doubt he was intending to use it as a twitch, but maybe that will get clarified one day. "Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult" is a phrase used quite frequently in Parelli training.

But the how it comes into effect is totally different. I have used/been involved with both and have seen the video of the Catwalk demo. The buckstop could be called "a gumline" in that is a rope that goes across the gum, but the action that happen with how the buckstop comes into action and the line that PP used (and how the Commanche Calmer works) is totally different. The buckstop comes into action in a quick uncomfortable action, the Commanche Calmer and the way that PP used his gumline is used over a period of time (although should be gentle!)

Maybe PP was trying to use it in a quick uncomfortable action. But IMO that is not as it is intended to be used and it caused a sore of some description which proves that to me anyway. (although hauling on it with all your weight over a long period of time does not say to me he was trying to use it that way). I have never seen a buckstop cause any physical damage to a horse.

Just because Monty called it a gumline does not mean it the same thing.

 

[jahseh]

But the how it comes into effect is totally different. I have used/been involved with both and have seen the video of the Catwalk demo. The buckstop could be called "a gumline" in that is a rope that goes across the gum, but the action that happen with how the buckstop comes into action and the line that PP used (and how the Commanche Calmer works) is totally different. The buckstop comes into action in a quick uncomfortable action, the Commanche Calmer and the way that PP used his gumline is used over a period of time (although should be gentle!)

Maybe PP was trying to use it in a quick uncomfortable action. But IMO that is not as it is intended to be used and it caused a sore of some description which proves that to me anyway. (although hauling on it with all your weight over a long period of time does not say to me he was trying to use it that way). I have never seen a buckstop cause any physical damage to a horse.

Just because Monty called it a gumline does not mean it the same thing.

which videos show this being used?

 

[amandap]

All NH is based on dominance in my understanding

Mmmmm better clarify here. To me (in a previous belief system) all Horsemanship is based on dominance imo. All animal husbandry is based on dominance, to say that we don't dominate other species to some degree or another is imo denial and trying to say we work with the animals and want to 'help' them and give them choices is great but we mustn't forget that their fundamental choices about where they live, what they eat, who they live with and spend time with and when are controlled by us. We even control who they mate with and go so far as to dictate HOW they mate... call that what ever you like but to me that is dominating another species.
Previously it was 'how' we use this dominance that was important to me but if we don't 'dominate' and shouldn't dominate at all then we shouldn't have animals in domesticity or manipulate our environment to our own ends or manipulate genes or living conditions etc. etc.

I need a new word for what we as humans do to/with other species before I can dismiss dominance as inherently bad. The fact that we alter anything in other species is dominance to me therefore if we do not wish to dominate we shouldn't domesticate at all.
We can comfort ourselves with thoughts that we are giving them choices and being their partners and not forcing them but we are still in the end dominating them surely? The choices we give them are between things in our world but in all this are we giving them choices that they value as species??? Would they move around away from family and life long friends? Would they go off on their own leaving their herd for a jaunt around the countryside, would foals leave their dams at six months old and go to some strange place? Would they go off somewhere unknown to learn about life and then go 'home' again with their new skills? Would they stand on a podium to earn a treat???
I never had a problem with the word 'dominance' before it was how we use our dominance to use and abuse other animals that I thought was important in the world we have created for horses. However if dominance is bad, to accept this I need to find another world that I can rationalize to be acceptable and denying dominance leaves me without any basic structure to life itself.

Rambling on a load of rubbish as usual but just trying to explain how directing, asking (and even telling occasionally) horses to do stuff was not inherently bad in my world. Somehow all this discussion has left me with a strong feeling that we are missing vital points about our relationship with horses and what is important to them is being lost amongst us humans arguing about who is better or 'nicer' rather than really looking at what we are doing by domesticating horses and seeing just how completely we are manipulating them in ways that are not in their best interests.

 

[mjwilliams]

"The video" that was shown on UTube was of poor qualitly, The reactions that people have given are of disgust for Parelli and I wonder If they have ever seen any of his work live before, studied the programmes made for the Natual way, or even been blessed with a responsiblity to other people to INVESTIGATE the facts before posting on HH or any othe site.
I will say this it is everyone's own right to have a opinion, but Dont just agree with some one saying some thing before getting ALL your facts together first.

I truly belive that the way Parelli aproached the situation and worked with cat walk was not doing the horse any harm at all. BUT ........ AND I MEAN BUT !! Parelli should have stopped and put the mic back on and EXPLAINED what he was doing so all this would not be going on right now. But in hindsight that is fine, at the time it was probally not the first thing that came to his mind.

The comments about people going off and doing it them selfs, I am sure there are a few "stupid" people out there that would try this at home. But these are the sort of people that will try anything anyway Parelli or anything.
But the MAJORIRTY of horse owners would have the good sence to ask around/read up/watch tutorials before performing this type of thing on their beloved animal.

Comments about Parelli are wonderfull if given in a fair and educated way, I hate seeing comments from people that have not botherd to read up on the way Parelli work.


I am neither for or agains Parelli, but I do make a uniformed choice as to what is good or bad. I saw no harm come to this horse and as far as im concerned everyone has a opinion, it is your choice as a indervidual to choose what is right or wrong.

Melanie - HORSE OWNER, BREEDER AND TRAINER FOR MANY YEARS
*I make no appologies for my c**p spelling!*

 

[Tinypony]

"The video" that was shown on UTube was of poor qualitly, The reactions that people have given are of disgust for Parelli and I wonder If they have ever seen any of his work live before, studied the programmes made for the Natual way, or even been blessed with a responsiblity to other people to INVESTIGATE the facts before posting on HH or any othe site.
I will say this it is everyone's own right to have a opinion, but Dont just agree with some one saying some thing before getting ALL your facts together first.

Comments about Parelli are wonderfull if given in a fair and educated way, I hate seeing comments from people that have not botherd to read up on the way Parelli work.

Melanie - HORSE OWNER, BREEDER AND TRAINER FOR MANY YEARS
*I make no appologies for my c**p spelling!*

That's OK then Melanie, as many of the people making observations here have studied Parelli, maybe even seen Pat Parelli work with horses in person (away from demos), and they do understand how Parelli "works".

 

[Gingernut1]

Another Pepperoni vid. Apologies if it’s been posted before. If it wasn’t for the poor horse it would be hysterically funny.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ueprRcH5B4>

 

[Gingernut1]

Oops can't seem to do live links. If you're interested in watching the video (and IMHO it's well worth watching!) paste, Pat Parelli 1.mp4 into youtube.

 

[Shysmum]

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6856085/


simply had to copy and paste this video here - enjoy ! sm x