Parelli question - yikes!

Oberon

Oberon

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Genuine question and not intended to be contentious ;).

I don't have much experience with Parelli but recently I've been around a Parelli trained horse.

It kept getting too close to me on the lead rope and invading my space.

I raised my hand to indicate to back off a bit. This is my method of communication (not a threat to hit :)). When I raise my hands/arms - it means "careful/back off". If that fails - then I will wave. I've found most horses understand this....

The result with this poor Parelli horse was to run backwards and flinch with his head up in the air :o.

It's not just this occasion - when I clip the lead rope on/off or move near his head, he flinches.

I know the owner is a sensible and experienced horsewoman with many 'traditional years' behind her as a groom. I know she isn't smacking him around the head :o.

In my ignorance of the system, it's easy for me to jump to the conclusion that Parelli has caused the horse to be head shy......
But it could also be said that I made the wrong move with this horse and triggered such a response by being too 'big' in my movements (a bit like getting on a racehorse and kicking :eek:).

I'm not sure where I went wrong?
 
Pale Rider said:
Parelli training won't cause a horse to be headshy. If it has, it's been trained inappropriately, the person training has got it wrong.
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Could it be then, that we non-Parelli folk are mis-communicating with the horse and causing the issue?

It's head shy with others on the lead rope, but with the owner it seems fine.

The third option is that the horse is just uncomfortable with strangers :confused:
 
Pale Rider said:
It's not fair for horses trained to a high level in natural horsemanship to go to conventional handlers, causes massive confusion.
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That's another thought as well.

Why train a horse a certain way so that it struggles to understand other humans?

No horse will be handled by the same person all it's life. Sometimes they have to go on part/full livery while an owner is away.....

I feel sad that I distressed this horse - but at the same time....I don't know how to communicate with it and I'm not sure that is my fault.
 
It's not your fault. It's taken 16 months for us to be speaking the same language as our parellied boy. He's got all the usual symptoms of a parellied horse but he's not headshy. I actually agree with pale rider that it's not fair to send a nh trained horse to a "normal" home. Lack of communication between us led to a nasty accident and it's been 16 months of tears and exasperation. I will never ever buy another parellied horse.
 
blackandwhite said:
It's not your fault. It's taken 16 months for us to be speaking the same language as our parellied boy. He's got all the usual symptoms of a parellied horse but he's not headshy. I actually agree with pale rider that it's not fair to send a nh trained horse to a "normal" home. Lack of communication between us led to a nasty accident and it's been 16 months of tears and exasperation. I will never ever buy another parellied horse.
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That's interesting.

What problems did you encounter?
 
Ime (IN MY EXPERIENCE :D ) I have NEVER met a parelli-ed horse (or parelli practising owner!) who do not have severe issues with personal space and communication.
I have only once known a person who trains using parelli methods who actually dares ride their horse. Most IME are nervous owners of confused and bargy horses.

Because of what I have found, and what I have seen of Pat Parelli himself, I have made a positive correlation between Parelli training and horses that are difficult to handle, confused, and sometimes aggressive.

So IN MY OPINION yes, it is probably Parelli training and 'games' (not to mention the recommended lead rope reprimand) that have caused this horse to be headshy.

Without seeing the horse, that would be my opinion based on what I have seen of Parelli in the past :)
 
Snowflakedale said:
Ime (IN MY EXPERIENCE :D ) I have NEVER met a parelli-ed horse (or parelli practising owner!) who do not have severe issues with personal space and communication.
I have only once known a person who trains using parelli methods who actually dares ride their horse. Most IME are nervous owners of confused and bargy horses.

Because of what I have found, and what I have seen of Pat Parelli himself, I have made a positive correlation between Parelli training and horses that are difficult to handle, confused, and sometimes aggressive.

So IN MY OPINION yes, it is probably Parelli training and 'games' (not to mention the recommended lead rope reprimand) that have caused this horse to be headshy.

Without seeing the horse, that would be my opinion based on what I have seen of Parelli in the past :)
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Patterdale, we seem to agree on everything. Please be my friend. Forever.......
 
Parelli trained horses are trained to back out of your space with just a look or the wiggle of a finger. Raising your hand like that is a massive amplification of that command and therefore gets an amplified response.
 
Snowflakedale said:
Ime (IN MY EXPERIENCE :D ) I have NEVER met a parelli-ed horse (or parelli practising owner!) who do not have severe issues with personal space and communication.
I have only once known a person who trains using parelli methods who actually dares ride their horse. Most IME are nervous owners of confused and bargy horses.

Because of what I have found, and what I have seen of Pat Parelli himself, I have made a positive correlation between Parelli training and horses that are difficult to handle, confused, and sometimes aggressive.

So IN MY OPINION yes, it is probably Parelli training and 'games' (not to mention the recommended lead rope reprimand) that have caused this horse to be headshy.

Without seeing the horse, that would be my opinion based on what I have seen of Parelli in the past :)
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I agree with this ^^^
 
Oh what have we not had...

He came to us as a "safe cob" for novice daughter and for me to ride occasionally. We new he lacked schooling but I'm perfectly capable of doing that. What we didn't know was that he was a maniac on the ground. He'd spent 4 years just doing the 7 games. A combination of an owner with great but no idea what she was doing and a life with very little stimulation for his intelligence turned him in to a hideous bully.

He is beautiful and surprisingly muti talented for a hw cob which is the only reason we didn't get rid. His behaviour is a million times better than it was but he's still difficult and at times downright dangerous.

February last year he decided to leave his stable by just throwing me out the way and going straight over the top of me. He's learnt that his strength is no match for a human. Humans can pretend all they like that they're part of the herd but Radley knows they're not! He uses body towards people in exactly the same way he does to other horses and he's never been taught that's not ok. His previous owner explained me that that was him expressing his "horsenality" while is was nursing a dislocated shoulder and wondering if it would be better to pts.

Now he's thriving on a traditional life and he loves to compete. He's been showing, jumping and cross country this year and he's a different horse. We've learnt how to handle him better and he's learning that it's better to behave and be nice. He'll also happily show you what he thinks of long ropes and games! Our poor friend got a hell of a shock when she tried to show us the parelli cues and he whipped round lightning fast and gave her both barrels!
 
Snowflakedale said:
Ime (IN MY EXPERIENCE :D ) I have NEVER met a parelli-ed horse (or parelli practising owner!) who do not have severe issues with personal space and communication.
Most IME are nervous owners of confused and bargy horses.
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I find this really interesting - so does parelli 'usually' end up teaching the horse to be pretty bargy?
Reason I'm asking is I got my mare as a 3 1/2 'backed' horse from a lady who does 'natural horsemanship', no specifics named. She's now rising 8 and I've always had some problems with her and personal space. Most of the time she's ok but if she wants to go somewhere she will just go through you. I've found that she'll 'get it' for a while once I've majorly blown up at her but then she forgets after a while and reverts despite me trying to be consistent with her handling. I'm wondering now if had some parelli when she was younger that has contributed to this?
 
A lot of people talking with little or no experience of Parelli. First of all I have to say I don't personally like it and would never have the program practiced on any of my horses. However, it does NOT make horses bargy, quite the opposite in fact. Properly trained parelli horses will stay out of your space and are exceptionally respectful of humans. The problems come when numpties blindly try to follow the program and haven't a clue what they are doing.

Numpties create numpty horses, whether they practice Parelli, or any other NH methods, or whether they follow traditional methods.
 
Wagtail said:
Parelli trained horses are trained to back out of your space with just a look or the wiggle of a finger. Raising your hand like that is a massive amplification of that command and therefore gets an amplified response.
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That's what I was afraid of.

Poor horse - he must wonder why I keep 'shouting' :o
 
OberBaubles said:
That's what I was afraid of.

Poor horse - he must wonder why I keep 'shouting' :o
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Yes, the shaking of the horrid bit of metal to clatter the jaw bones is just the first stage (not required with most horses, just the more stubborn ones). It instills a fear of reprisal, which can then be toned down and down so that finally, only a look is required. When properly trained they will move their shoulders or quarters over, just in response to where the trainer is looking.
 
Wagtail said:
Yes, the shaking of the horrid bit of metal to clatter the jaw bones is just the first stage (not required with most horses, just the more stubborn ones). It instills a fear of reprisal, which can then be toned down and down so that finally, only a look is required. When properly trained they will move their shoulders or quarters over, just in response to where the trainer is looking.
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Well that would explain why he's a bit like a kite, flying around me.

All I'm trying to do is bring him in from the field and put him in the stable :o.
 
Properly practiced, Parelli doesn't create bargy horses IMO. Properly practiced it creates horses who will not come into your space unless invited. Trouble is there are many amateurs who do not properly practice it but who think they do. I think a novice using parelli will confuse a horse far more than a novice using traditional methods.

A raised hand can be a command for a parelli'd horse to back up, as you discovered ;)

The trouble with the parelli rope/halter combi and the way it is initially used to train such commands is that a great heavy metal thing creates quite a lot of pressure on a thin rope halter and clunks the horse around the jaw. It's no use parelli fans denying this... Pat and Linda have put plenty of video evidence out there. Upon refinement it's not so severe, but I question how many people get to refinement. It's why I bought a knotted end rope to use not a metal clip one, although my opinion now means that I don't currently use natural horsemanship equipment, but that's a different story.

I agree, it's not fair on any horse to not be handled consistently by all who handle them, and it's not your fault Oberon.
 
Whilst not what I do I know a horse who has been parrellied since a yearling, now 7 who competes locally with a parelli instructor, just a finger movement will back him from the gate. In her words the initial rope waving is like the squeeze, kick, smack aids when getting a horse to move off the leg, make a small aid and then make it bigger until you get a reaction whereupon the aid is stopped. Her horse is in no way head shy but she is constantly aware of her body language, I wouldn't even hold the lead rope on it else I confuse it but she does like other people to talk to him so he knows normal human. Must say it does work for her, horse is happy, she adores it and the dressage judges seem to cope with her special saddle.

Off to hide now....
 
My general experience of parelli horses is like Patterdales. But, in fairness the ones I know well enough to comment on, are owned by numpties who would make a right royal **** up whatever method they'd chosen. My dislike of parelli stems from dislike of the parellis & some training methods, rather than the end results.
 
Wagtail said:
Numpties create numpty horses, whether they practice Parelli, or any other NH methods, or whether they follow traditional methods.
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I have to agree with you there!

I know someone who had a few NH lessons with her horse, then bought a pony for her kids. Pony was a very well mannered R&D, traditionally brought up but a bit green. Owner started to show her kids how to make it go backwards by shaking a lead-rope in its face (not hitting it). Needless to say, this pony, who would back on command and a touch on the headcollar, was somewhat startled and threw its head up in the air before leaping backwards. Not what you want a child's pony to do!
I did say.......
 
Snowflakedale said:
Ime (IN MY EXPERIENCE :D ) I have NEVER met a parelli-ed horse (or parelli practising owner!) who do not have severe issues with personal space and communication.
I have only once known a person who trains using parelli methods who actually dares ride their horse. Most IME are nervous owners of confused and bargy horses.

Because of what I have found, and what I have seen of Pat Parelli himself, I have made a positive correlation between Parelli training and horses that are difficult to handle, confused, and sometimes aggressive.

So IN MY OPINION yes, it is probably Parelli training and 'games' (not to mention the recommended lead rope reprimand) that have caused this horse to be headshy.

Without seeing the horse, that would be my opinion based on what I have seen of Parelli in the past :)
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This.

I'm sure it'll cause controversy too in agreeing with all of that.

A horse I had in the past to work with/re-back[though who still to this day will remain one of my all time favourite horses], in the wrong hands, could have been down right dangerous.
We got him from a Parelli NH home where he'd been since a youngster.
He again had personal space issues, if asked of something 'normal' was extremely unhappy and aggressive and also head shy. When asked of anything 'new' [ie, that hadn't been done before], he was lovely and genuine and a different horse.

12 months later after being completely restarted, he was the most loveliest, quiet easy horse to do....but my god it took a long time and persistence to change his attitude to people.

Put back into a 'normal' routine with no frills and 'normal' handling, you wouldn't have recognised him a year on. I trusted him with my life and he got me out of trouble no questions asked if I ever made an error [jumping/hacking/or similar], which if done previous, I'd have not had the same response to put it politely.

One thing he would never tolerate [or rather wasn't 'happy' with is probably a better description], was bareback or form of a hackamore again however.

And yes, he was also completely seen to for any causes of pain, right down from multiple chiros, to scoping for ulcers, etc. He had not a thing 'wrong' with his physically.

His brain was just fried and was completely confused and quite frankly, *issed at the whole concept of people and being 'played' with and hated ropes round him.

So yes...I do think Parelli was the cause and undoing of him if I'm honest.


ETA - For the record also, the NH home previous was not a 'numpty' either, but a 'professional' [for want of a better word].
 
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I know thousands of people who are Parelli students and instructors who have some fantastic horses and superb relationships.
There are a few who will never train a mouse to squeak, just like in anything else.
The people who seem to have the biggest problems are generally those who know little or nothing about it, or just don't like PP.
It's only natural horsemanship at the end of the day like the rest.
 
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