Parelli question - yikes!

My WB backs up to a shake of the lead rope if she gets in my space. She had issues when we got her and its been a long time working with her but that one command is a real help.
Anyone who brings her in knows to do it and she responded the same way, she is mostly a dope on a rope but can have the odd hyper moment and it helps get her brain back to the leader.

I haven't trained her in pp methods, just had a guy out to help us with bridle work (long story involving ear twitching in a previous home) and he taught her it for us as well as a few other leading exercises. He rides Weston, has worked on various ranches over the years but takes what he things works for the horses and has had loads of success with it.

But by no means does it meanjustvone person can lead my WB in. I hate horses that have to be led in a certain way, or by a certain person. It's not fair to the horses or person.
 
Wagtail has given the answer to this, you're giving this horse much bigger cues than he needs. As for running over people, some horses will always tend to this as a default if they get stressed.
Difficult really because personally I like my horses to be responsive and to take notice of small cues, but I do sometimes see a bit of confusion happening when someone from a more conventional background handles them for the first time. They don't go off their heads about it, but they do tend to match the energy of the handler. Similar things can happen when they are ridden as well, although their reaction from too much in the saddle tends to be to stop in confusion.
Poor Parelli training creates "problem" horses just as any poor horse training does. We all know large numbers of horses that are bargy, difficult to handle or otherwise in need of some remedial work, they are everywhere and created by people from all sorts of backgrounds.
 
I fail to see the value in training a horse in such a way that it can only be handled by experienced 'Natural Horsemanship' people.
I certainly wouldn't be capable of riding one of Mary Kings eventers or a top class dressage horse, but I'm pretty sure I could lead one to the field and back without incident.
 
I agree lastchancer, I think the horse in question has been over-tuned if that makes sense. However, that's what they do in order to pass the higher "levels", the horse has to be super responsive. Actually, I think that's the problem, some people are mistaking reactive for responsive.
I would say that my horses are pretty responsive. If someone asks with a bit too much energy you can see that they over-react, but it doesn't cause any particular problems or upset them. If they were continually handled by someone who asked differently all that would happen is that their responses would be dulled down, they wouldn't lose their brains.
 
Our farrier of 30 years experience has told us he would never,ever work with a parelli/ nh trained horse as it is like working with a ticking time bomb :o

I agree with him and please don't kill me but if that horse moves homes it causes all sorts of issues :(
 
Snowflakedale said:
Ime (IN MY EXPERIENCE :D ) I have NEVER met a parelli-ed horse (or parelli practising owner!) who do not have severe issues with personal space and communication.
I have only once known a person who trains using parelli methods who actually dares ride their horse. Most IME are nervous owners of confused and bargy horses.

I have to say that now you know 2. My mare came to me with severe issues. Too much for me to deal with so i enlisted the help of a really experienced horsewoman who was also doing parelli. She started her off and there was no whacking with the carrot stick or the clip, i would have gone elsewhere if she was heavy handed.
She was very headshy when she came.
She worked with both of us and the body language thing was key.

After a few months I had a really decent mare. We have been together for nearly 10 years and hack for miles around the countryside pretty much daily, she works more with my voice than anything else really now. she is so mannerable and never in your space, even leading her and gets wound up at something she would never barge. she is very sensitive to body language so anyone else handling her needs to know how to do it, but they don't need a big lesson to do it, just takes a few minutes really, someone tried to lunge her for me and she kept turning in as she is so sensitive to the signs and they weren't getting it . I see people doing that yanking thing on the head collar if their horse misbehaves, if they did that to my horse she would freak, there isn't used to anything rough. If i walk into her stable with her feed, she steps back and waits til i put it on the floor.
If you throw your hands up in the air, like to swat a fly she wouldn't react so wouldn't shoot backward. In the summer i ride swishing my stick all around her head and sides etc to keep the flies off and again no adverse reaction. a car once slowed down and the people were agog as i am sure they thought i was beating her.

I don't normally react to these parelli threads as each side seems to be very set in their ways. Lately i haven't been impressed with what i have seen from L and P parelli, in fact a few times quite horrified. I can assure you that none of my mares training was like that.

I don't do any of the games and haven't for some years but she is still handled with a loose rope and if i want her to move back i could wiggle my finger, i do tend to just say back and she does though. There are things we probably do naturally that we learned from then. i was showing someone about moving them with the body language thing whose horse was moving them around and being bargy and she still moved with just very light signals like she did when we did parelli but there was no head collar on her and no stick or anything.

It was a means to an end for us and there was also good old fashioned common sense used also. so not all parelli is bad, depends on who is doing it. I think it is wrong for a novice to get a hold of the kit and dvds and think they can go and train a horse, that is my big issue with the system and why there are so many messed up parelli 'trained' horses with problems.
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tessybear said:
Our farrier of 30 years experience has told us he would never,ever work with a parelli/ nh trained horse as it is like working with a ticking time bomb :o

I agree with him and please don't kill me but if that horse moves homes it causes all sorts of issues :(
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Well, that's the opposite to what my farrier used to say when I had Parelli trained horses. He came to look after a yard of 6 "Parelli horses" and used to rave about how easy they were to do. Which just goes to show that it's the trainer that is the key, not the "system". One of my Parelli horses moved to a home that had no exposure to that whatsoever, and was fine. By then I didn't want him taken to any Parelli clinics and that was a clause in his loan contract... but they did learn about other forms of nh-style training and he was a great schoolmaster for them in that.

I just want my horses to be like Buck Brannaman's now. :-))
 
festnuttyfairy said:
If you throw your hands up in the air, like to swat a fly she wouldn't react so wouldn't shoot backward. In the summer i ride swishing my stick all around her head and sides etc to keep the flies off and again no adverse reaction. a car once slowed down and the people were agog as i am sure they thought i was beating her.
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I think that's a demonstration of intent and energy. I'm assuming if you want her to respond she will, and if you don't she won't. That's because your intent changes. I think that's when we start to talk about the word Feel?
 
Tinypony said:
Well, that's the opposite to what my farrier used to say when I had Parelli trained horses. He came to look after a yard of 6 "Parelli horses" and used to rave about how easy they were to do. Which just goes to show that it's the trainer that is the key, not the "system". One of my Parelli horses moved to a home that had no exposure to that whatsoever, and was fine. By then I didn't want him taken to any Parelli clinics and that was a clause in his loan contract... but they did learn about other forms of nh-style training and he was a great schoolmaster for them in that.

I just want my horses to be like Buck Brannaman's now. :-))
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Ah i see, he says some riskay stuff to say the least, but then i'm to much of a novice to work with a parelli horse, i'd end up giving mixed signals i think given a life time home with people who know what they are doing is great.

however these days it's hard to find that, :-)
 
Starzaan said:
My main problem with Parelli is the Parellis themselves.
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I agree!

I'm a bit out on the fence with the methods/ideas themselves. My YO practices parelli and has used it to great effect on bargy rude horses and none of them have issues with being handled by non parelli trained people. So it must be as much the trainer as the horse learning :)

I have tried parelli on my idiot TB, both with me at the end of the rope and my YO as a last ditch attempt to get him to behave after months of box rest (he refused to walk on 4 legs much preferring to dangle 2 in the air). He risk of re-injury meant his parelli time was cut short but he does still move back very well at the use of a hand, isn't headshy at all and I'm not sure I'll go back to it as he isn't normally bad, just circumstance prevailed and it did almost work for a time. Considering trying it on the rude cob alongside conventional groundwork as he is a tough cookie...

I do find it very odd leading a horse with them behind you, maybe I just know mine might just be up to something lol!
 
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Obviously some strongly held views, some folk talking out of the wrong orifice as usual.
Parelli for me is not a problem, it's natural horsemanship that's all, plenty of other NH trainers about.
I've seen a lot more horses knackered up in all sorts of conventional settings than ever with NH.
Over 50 yrs training horses half of that in Natural Horsemanship. I know which I prefer and my horses prefer.
Not much point going over the same old same old.
I'll get the pop corn out now, lol.
 
If my horses (who are trained to do non-conventional things) couldn't be handled/ridden by the average person I'd be absolutely mortified! Are we now saying that Parelli trained horses can/should only be handled by P-initiated handlers? That is ridiculous!
 
I have at least two friends who are into Parelli - neither of their horses are difficult to handle. One got into Parelli because her horse was big and nervy and could be a bit hard to handle - I guess a lot of people probably start down that road because their horse already has issues rather than the Parelli training created them.
 
I have done Parelli training with my horse - we got into it for fun really and to do something different. We also participate in other activities such as having classical dressage lessons and I think there are parallels.
My horse can be ridden and handled by anybody - last time the vet needed to blood test her, he did it with her loose in the field. She spent a couple of years on loan to a BHS approved riding school teaching children how to ride.
My horse has never seemed confused between any of the methods - BHS, parelli or classical, as long as they are applied correctly. She often gets confused when I am in a dressage lesson asking for a lateral manoeuvre sitting crooked riding like an idiot but there you go. Once my instructor straightens me up she is fine.
 
I've found reading this thread interesting.
I have used Parelli techniques on my horse and I understand they may not work for every horse, but they do for him. He was beaten when he was young therefore head shy & generally a nervous horse. Using the Parelli techniques he's much better and I can say he is definitely not hard to handle, even my mum who had never done aching with horses has managed to turn him out without me there recently :)
I agree with what others have said, it very much depends on the person training the horse. I know quite a few people who do Parelli and I learnt through them before training my horse, and all of there's are well mannered too.

I always say to people when I tell them I sometimes do a but of Parelli that I understand its not for everyone/ every horse & I'm definitely not one of those people who forces my views on other people. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to do what they like with their own horses I think :)
Oh and I don't agree with some of the videos I've seen of the Parellis themselves, just some of their techniques work for me :)
 
My horse had some parelli training when she was young before backing (I am not a big fan either). Her behaviour does confuse me occasionally and if you tell her off for biting or something she can get quite aggressive back, thankfully I am not a very temperamental person and she is learning that its something she will have to deal with if she is going to be a horror! Once I went to pick up a foot and she went absolutely bonkers and tried to flatten/bite/kick/circle me, but other than that one time she is very good.

She does seem to like walking backwards and in fact does it all the time if she thinks she might get food... Could probably do a backwards dressage test! She is also great to lead and very polite on a leadrope, which are things I can't complain about really!

I feel I might like to learn an outline of what might have been done with her so I can understand how I might teach her to lunge and things like that.
 
Cortez has it in one. That's my feeling. I need horses to be handled by anybody.

But having said that Parelli did not reinvent the wheel. They did however package it, sell to the masses, add some cute catchphrases, and bingo you have people that should never be practicing the methods now thinking their horseman.

I also am sick of the "traditional methods are cruel" aspect. I know I don't deprive mine of water to get what I want. Not saying all do but the man himself uses the method. I really wouldn't give a hoot what anyone does except for the fact many practitioners seem to think we are being cruel.

So I have to think to myself am I to turn out horses the general population that may not be very experienced can handle or do I want to practice a way that means the communication may get lost in translation.

My best friend in the world is a practitioner. I think she'll be heading down to FLA again this year for more courses. Quite a few of my old racetrack friends are now practitioners. As long as we have happy horses that want to work for people we don't care which way they get there. But they don't try and insult who I am because I don't practice Parelli. Something I find most other Parelli people aren't capable of doing. They assume you have zero clue, can't be in tune with your horse, trot out the you know nothing of it while at the same time deciding traditional methods are cruel.

I am a huge fan of Buck and find him more down to earth and an amazing horseman.

Terri
 
There are a couple of people on the yard I'm on now who are into NH and use the Parelli headcollars. Their horses are no better behaved than the conventionally trained horses.

At a previous yard there was a woman with 4 horses who were all supposed to be Parelli trained. They were the most badly behaved horses I've ever seen - they frequently managed to get away from the owner when she was leading them. She used to yank hard on those headcollar things resulting in the horses pulling and shying away from her. They were uncatchable in the field by her, but when anyone else who worked on the yard went to get them in in ordinary headcollars they were lovely and came in no problem. So from my experience of Parelli, I wouldn't entertain it. I haven't seen anything in the method, either in RL or by the Parellis themselves that would make me change my mind.
 
Cortez, all I'm saying is that I don't want my horses treated like someone is screaming at them in Chinese.

People who are horse people can handle horses no matter how they are trained. I don't want numpties getting hold of my horses and blaming the horse for their own shortcomings.
 
Snowflakedale said:
Ime (IN MY EXPERIENCE :D ) I have NEVER met a parelli-ed horse (or parelli practising owner!) who do not have severe issues with personal space and communication.
I have only once known a person who trains using parelli methods who actually dares ride their horse. Most IME are nervous owners of confused and bargy horses.

Because of what I have found, and what I have seen of Pat Parelli himself, I have made a positive correlation between Parelli training and horses that are difficult to handle, confused, and sometimes aggressive.

So IN MY OPINION yes, it is probably Parelli training and 'games' (not to mention the recommended lead rope reprimand) that have caused this horse to be headshy.

Without seeing the horse, that would be my opinion based on what I have seen of Parelli in the past :)
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I have to laugh out loud at this one!! I have been practising Parelli ground games since 1998 and none of my horses invade my space......and they are all ridden!!!! None of them are difficult to handle, confused or aggressive!!!! In fact they are the opposite!!
 
I was interested in Parelli for a short time, on one lesson, we were teaching to back up, horse woudnt move, so the instructor whacked the big rope in the air (kind of like a wave) and the big metal clip hit her straight in the eye. Never again, They might move from a wag of a finger once they are "trained", but its pretty harsh to get them to that stage.
 
I don't understand all this 'parelli horses can't be handled by anyone else'. :confused:

My sister has six horses at her yard. All of them are Parelli trained, none of them are head shy, and I could handle any of them. I don't follow Parelli. I don't like the inflexibility and I find it a little bit domineering. However, I can't argue with the fact that all her horses are impeccably behaved, very happy and all are ridden.

Personally I don't like to follow any particular training philosophy. I have what I like to call an individualistic approach. I like flexibility and adapt my training to suit each individual horse. I find Parelli trained horses very easy to handle, but I am very quiet and low energy when handling horses, so maybe that is why.
 
OberBaubles said:
Genuine question and not intended to be contentious ;).

I don't have much experience with Parelli but recently I've been around a Parelli trained horse.

It kept getting too close to me on the lead rope and invading my space.

I raised my hand to indicate to back off a bit. This is my method of communication (not a threat to hit :)). When I raise my hands/arms - it means "careful/back off". If that fails - then I will wave. I've found most horses understand this....

The result with this poor Parelli horse was to run backwards and flinch with his head up in the air :o.

It's not just this occasion - when I clip the lead rope on/off or move near his head, he flinches.

I know the owner is a sensible and experienced horsewoman with many 'traditional years' behind her as a groom. I know she isn't smacking him around the head :o.

In my ignorance of the system, it's easy for me to jump to the conclusion that Parelli has caused the horse to be head shy......
But it could also be said that I made the wrong move with this horse and triggered such a response by being too 'big' in my movements (a bit like getting on a racehorse and kicking :eek:).

I'm not sure where I went wrong?
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Parelli really isn't my bag, but my friend trained her horse with it... He is not head shy but. He will literally back up if you waggle your index finger from left to right, very subtle, a hand is in a sense way more pressure. Perhaps this horse is that finely tuned?
 
Alyth, Snowflakedale is epitomises the stupidity that's put on these threads though ignorance of the subject.

"I have only once known a person who trains Parelli ride.!" Where does Snowflake hang out? Mars?

These criticisms are really unwarranted, unsubstantiated and steeped in stupidity and ignorance.
 
Pale Rider said:
If it's flinching from a raised hand it's been thumped in the face. That's not training.
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What an absolutely appalling sweeping statement... PR that assumption I'm sorry to say makes you look rather unintelligent and whilst I don't always agree with your posts, you can come across as rather intelligent, but I'm really shocked at that statement:eek::confused:
 
Snow Queen, most horses I see that are head shy have had an owner that has tried to cure them nipping or biting and instead of dealing with it appropriately ends up hitting, which isn't right.
Horses are always blamed for poor horse skills by handlers, on this forum more than most.

I don't and won't defend poor trainer's conventional, Parelli or any other brand of NH.

Some make the biggest balls of Parelli going, and they always seem to be the ones people know about.

There are a lot in the program who are far more skillful than either of the Parelli's, but they don't get a mention.
 
Tinypony said:
As for running over people, some horses will always tend to this as a default if they get stressed.
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The trick is to avoid the horse getting stressed.

Remind me to tell you how to achieve this. The information won't be immediately available, as you have no need to know this at the moment. :D
 
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