Parelli

Personally I've never understood how people who use Parelli methods are by default "scared" of their horses. That's like saying people who use draw reins or martingales are scared? I've used some of the techniques and they helped immensely. I'm by no means a Parelli whizz or a member of the 'I LOVE PARELLI!" club, but there is nothing more annoying than a horse who has no concept of personal space and barges right into you. I'd prefer to just shake my finger at my horse to get him to take several steps back from me, rather than do the usual *smack chest* "GET BACK GET BACK!" that I see a lot of people doing!
 
fburton said:
I rather like the kind of horsemanship that requires no equipment at all, only knowledge. Don't know what it is called though...
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:D thats what gets me. it uses equipment so how can it be "natural". I got a book called Training the Horse the Rational Way or some such title which says that as horses are meant to be ridden it is not natural anyway!
 
FreddiesGal said:
I'm by no means a Parelli whizz or a member of the 'I LOVE PARELLI!" club, but there is nothing more annoying than a horse who has no concept of personal space and barges right into you. I'd prefer to just shake my finger at my horse to get him to take several steps back from me, rather than do the usual *smack chest* "GET BACK GET BACK!" that I see a lot of people doing!
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Tehe, suppose naturally though we should be able to pin our ears back and they back off. heres to wishing...... lol
 
Sam_1985 said:
Tehe, suppose naturally though we should be able to pin our ears back and they back off. heres to wishing...... lol
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I find that if I put this on and charge it works MUCH better..
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fburton said:
I rather like the kind of horsemanship that requires no equipment at all, only knowledge. Don't know what it is called though...
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My favourite type? :D Or possibly Cost Effective Horsemanship?

ETA, seriously though. I swore when I registered for H&H I would not get embroiled in any Parelli threads... but

I believe that most of the things that Parelli suggests you teach your horse are things that all horses should know. So, yes, you should be able to touch your horse all over - including their face, ears, sheath, legs, dock, in their mouth. Yes, your horse should back away from you, especially if you are carrying a bucket, or if you want to pass through a gate etc. Yes, your horse should be able to move sideways away from you (and, I would add, sideways towards you for mounting blocks). Yes, your horse should be able to walk off away from you either in a straight line for long lining or in a circle. Yes, your horse should, on request, be able to pass through narrow openings without fear.

So I agree with this - and would hope that it was fundamental to all horse handling.

My objection is in how Parelli suggests it should be trained. It is perfectly possible to train all of these things successfully, in a low key way, without using poking, prodding, stick waving, rope waggling or escalating pressure. In fact, it is quite possible to train all of these things using nothing more than a flat headcollar and soft lead rope, and with a bit of practice, it is possible to train them even without that and with the horse loose in a large field of grass... Oh, and without purchasing any DVDs, club memberships, special "unique" equipment, magic saddles, bridles, hats with logos, socks...
 
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FreddiesGal said:
I'd prefer to just shake my finger at my horse to get him to take several steps back from me, rather than do the usual *smack chest* "GET BACK GET BACK!" that I see a lot of people doing!
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Presumably you taught your horse to step back when you shake your finger - after all, it's not a natural signal. So surely it should be possible to teach a horse not to need having a finger shaken at it in the first place, i.e. good manners. I find a light touch on the chest is a good signal for stepping back as it's an obvious cue (less likely to be confused should one wish to waggle fingers for other reasons, and immediately transferrable to other people who might have to handle the horse). And the ones who have to smack and shout - they haven't taught their horse at all.
 
fburton said:
Presumably you taught your horse to step back when you shake your finger - after all, it's not a natural signal. So surely it should be possible to teach a horse not to need having a finger shaken at it in the first place, i.e. good manners. I find a light touch on the chest is a good signal for stepping back as it's an obvious cue (less likely to be confused should one wish to waggle fingers for other reasons, and immediately transferrable to other people who might have to handle the horse). And the ones who have to smack and shout - they haven't taught their horse at all.
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You know what? I was going to say exactly the same thing but Im working so didnt want my phone going off at me every two seconds with people moaning at me. lol. My boy has always taught back from a light touch on the chest (obviously a bit firmer at first). No finger wagging from me. If I did he would bite it off....lol
 
Sam_1985 said:
My boy has always taught back from a light touch on the chest (obviously a bit firmer at first).
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This is a good point, which I omitted from my earlier post. When you start backing lessons with a firmer touch, this is something that the horse should find readily understandable because it's pressure applied in the direction you want the horse to go. (Learning to yield to pressure is one of the very first lessons a horse will learn - or should learn - so if he already learned about that he will be able to respond to other yield requests very quickly.) After that, it's an easy progression to applying less and less pressure until the touch is just a cue to move.

The problem with the Parelli system, as I see it, is that some of the cues they teach are a bit obscure. I would be interested to hear an explanation for why they have to be that way. For instance, waggling the rope to get the horse to back away seems non-obvious. I wouldn't have any problem with that, except that the method used to teach it can entail getting overly (imo) rough with the horse - 'upping the phases' - including clunking the horse on the jaw with the heavy metal 'bull snap' at the end of the rope (which I personally think is awful).

I have never, in any practical situation, needed to get a horse to back away from me a great distance - I either go with the horse, or the distance is short - though I can see that this might look impressive.

ETA: Brightbay - yes, that is exactly what I am trying to convey, albeit rather wordily!
 
fburton said:
This is a good point, which I omitted from my earlier post. When you start backing lessons with a firmer touch, this is something that the horse should find readily understandable because it's pressure applied in the direction you want the horse to go. (Learning to yield to pressure is one of the very first lessons a horse will learn - or should learn - so if he already learned about that he will be able to respond to other yield requests very quickly.) After that, it's an easy progression to applying less and less pressure until the touch is just a cue to move.

The problem with the Parelli system, as I see it, is that some of the cues they teach are a bit obscure. I would be interested to hear an explanation for why they have to be that way. For instance, waggling the rope to get the horse to back away seems non-obvious. I wouldn't have any problem with that, except that the method used to teach it can entail getting overly (imo) rough with the horse - 'upping the phases' - including clunking the horse on the jaw with the heavy metal 'bull snap' at the end of the rope (which I personally think is awful).

I have never, in any practical situation, needed to get a horse to back away from me a great distance - I either go with the horse, or the distance is short - though I can see that this might look impressive.
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I agree with you totally. How a gentle touch is worse than waggling a rope and it i dont know?? :confused: I also found that they say how lunge whips are used to encourage the horse to go forward yet My boy only ever learnt with a lunge whip. I carry it now but he goes and stops by words. Again, parelli/roberts seem to think flinging a grear thick hunk of rope at its hindquarters is better than a flick of a whip. Safe to say that i dont follow their practices at all :D If i do agree with anything they do then its mainly cos its common sense anyway and how any person should treat their horse. Someone suggested a dually headcollar for my boy when he was younger and a pain to lead. I led him in a bridle for a few weeks and he didnt pull once on it and now is fine in a headcollar again. I do think they like to make their money as well. everything for it is so expensive!!! I did buy my youngster a "parelli" ball the other day though to have a play in the school. Well its a Argos gym ball anyway. lol.
 
For instance, waggling the rope to get the horse to back away seems non-obvious. I wouldn't have any problem with that, except that the method used to teach it can entail getting overly (imo) rough with the horse - 'upping the phases' - including clunking the horse on the jaw with the heavy metal 'bull snap' at the end of the rope (which I personally think is awful).
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Having watched someone who is now a Parelli trainer train her horse, observation suggests that setting up a "wave" in the rope, so that the snap waggles back and forth under the jaw, causes the horse to lift their head and invert their neck (I think I'd probably do the same thing). If you release on this (i.e. stop waggling and let the rope and snap gradually stop moving - inertia means it won't be immediate), and then ask again, the horse will eventually convert the upwards movement of the head and backwards movement of the neck into a step backwards.

This is why, when you look at the finished product, where the horse backs up off a threat (you wiggle your finger the way you did when you were about to set the wave up on the rope), the horse runs backwards with head up and back inverted.

Yes, it gets the horse to back up. No, it does not look good, and no, it will not be a useful move to incorporate into any gymnastic training you might want to do with your horse. It comes down to "it is effective, but that doesn't mean it's the best or only way to teach it".

Whereas the method of asking the horse to back by moving towards them and directing your pressure at their chest will, if done well, get you a nice smooth back up without the head up, and with proper diagonal pairs of legs moving back without rushing. That's what I aim for anyway, and I like the shape my horse makes when he moves backwards ;)
 
Brightbay said:
Whereas the method of asking the horse to back by moving towards them and directing your pressure at their chest will, if done well, get you a nice smooth back up without the head up, and with proper diagonal pairs of legs moving back without rushing. That's what I aim for anyway, and I like the shape my horse makes when he moves backwards ;)
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I do too. he arches his neck and looks like a proper horse as opposed to a gangly young warmblood. lol :D
 
Brightbay said:
It's nice to see, isn't it? :)
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I always thought too that yes the horse learns to go back from the rope waggling but does it not encourage them to go back as they initially start of with a "flight" reaction to is as opposed to just yielding from pressure? or am i talking c**p? lol
 
fburton said:
Presumably you taught your horse to step back when you shake your finger - after all, it's not a natural signal. So surely it should be possible to teach a horse not to need having a finger shaken at it in the first place, i.e. good manners. I find a light touch on the chest is a good signal for stepping back as it's an obvious cue (less likely to be confused should one wish to waggle fingers for other reasons, and immediately transferrable to other people who might have to handle the horse). And the ones who have to smack and shout - they haven't taught their horse at all.
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Actually I used the "rope wiggle" technique to start with, and then started to wiggle my finger each time I wiggled the rope. So now I have no need for head collar/rope etc.

Personally I'd much rather be able to tell my horse to either "stay" or "go back" from 3 metres away from him, rather than having to walk over to him and prod his chest.
 
Personally I'd much rather be able to tell my horse to either "stay" or "go back" from 3 metres away from him, rather than having to walk over to him and prod his chest.
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Personally, I prefer that my horse backs away from me on a cue regardless of where I'm standing. And I prefer to teach it without touching the horse at all :)
 
FreddiesGal said:
Actually I used the "rope wiggle" technique to start with, and then started to wiggle my finger each time I wiggled the rope. So now I have no need for head collar/rope etc.

Personally I'd much rather be able to tell my horse to either "stay" or "go back" from 3 metres away from him, rather than having to walk over to him and prod his chest.
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So you send your horse away from you if he gets within 3m? bit harsh maybe?
 
Personally I'd much rather be able to tell my horse to either "stay" or "go back" from 3 metres away from him, rather than having to walk over to him and prod his chest.
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Personally, I prefer that my horse backs away from me on a cue regardless of where I'm standing. And I prefer to teach it without touching the horse at all :)

But if I had to train by touching the horse's chest, that's still a far cry from poking, and poking is still a far cry from slapping either side of his face with a metal clip :)
 
FreddiesGal said:
Actually I used the "rope wiggle" technique to start with, and then started to wiggle my finger each time I wiggled the rope. So now I have no need for head collar/rope etc.

Personally I'd much rather be able to tell my horse to either "stay" or "go back" from 3 metres away from him, rather than having to walk over to him and prod his chest.
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So you send your horse away from you if he gets within 3m? bit harsh maybe?
 
Brightbay said:
Personally, I prefer that my horse backs away from me on a cue regardless of where I'm standing. And I prefer to teach it without touching the horse at all :)

But if I had to train by touching the horse's chest, that's still a far cry from poking, and poking is still a far cry from slapping either side of his face with a metal clip :)
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and no one said anything about poking/prodding their horses chest anyway :D
 
Yes, sometimes I do send him away from 3 metres, sometimes 5. Why shouldn't I? He should respect my space.

Metal clip? I don't remember mentioning a metal clip?
 
FreddiesGal said:
Yes, sometimes I do send him away from 3 metres, sometimes 5. Why shouldn't I? He should respect my space.

Metal clip? I don't remember mentioning a metal clip?
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By respecting space i teach my boy he is not to get right in my face IF i dont want him there. however, coming within 3 or 5 m is not a problem for us and I see no sense in sending him away from 3 m away. Thats plenty distance.

How is the lead/line attached to the headcollar then?
 
Sam_1985 said:
By respecting space i teach my boy he is not to get right in my face IF i dont want him there. however, coming within 3 or 5 m is not a problem for us and I see no sense in sending him away from 3 m away. Thats plenty distance.

How is the lead/line attached to the headcollar then?
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It's a piece of cotton rope knotted to a piece of elastic which attaches to the clip of the head collar.

But how does your horse know when you don't want him there unless you touch his chest? Surely that defeats the object of the word teach if the only way you can get him out of your space is to use physical force?
 
FreddiesGal said:
It's a piece of cotton rope knotted to a piece of elastic which attaches to the clip of the head collar.

But how does your horse know when you don't want him there unless you touch his chest? Surely that defeats the object of the word teach if the only way you can get him out of your space is to use physical force?
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Dont get me started and certainly do not accuse me of using physical force to get my horses to do what i want. I say back and sometimes he goes back when i put my hand towards him and other times I have to just gently touch him. Its not PHYSICAL FORCE. I am not pushing him back. Are you saying that when you ride you do not apply pressure with your legs? in that case you are saying that you physically force the horse forwards be asking them to go forward with your legs. Oh, and my horse respects my space so he very rarely gets in it in a bad way anyway :D and hes only three so yes he is still learning. Much better than flinging a rope around in the air methinks.
 
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Sam_1985 said:
Dont get me started. I say back and sometimes he goes back when i put my hand towards him and other times I have to just gently touch him. Its not PHYSICAL FORCE. I am not pushing him back. Are you saying that when you ride you do not apply pressure with your legs? in that case you are saying that you physically force the horse forwards be asking them to go forward with your legs. Oh, and my horse respects my space so he very rarely gets in it in a bad way anyway :D and hes only three so yes he is still learning. Much better than flinging a rope around in the air methinks.
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Any pressure applied is physical force.

Of course I use my legs when riding, however I can't see the relevance of that comment.

Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't know because I don't have to do that.
 
The relevance is that you say me gently touching my horse to ask him to move back is physical force, which you imply to be bad and you use it in a sense that makes it sound violent. So touching your horse with your legs is physical force and therefore bad. yes or no? Of course a horse will move back if you are swinging or waggling a rope at him, so would you, due to not wanting to be hit with it!
 
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