Parelli's return!

drover said:
Golf girl,

Sorry if I offended you but it appears you've jumped to a conclusion.
Maybe you should re-read my first question and the later posted questions as they are very openly worded and inviting for all.

Yes there are a higher proportion of people who dislike the parelli method who have stated an opinion but there is no reason why the many people who favor the method cant voice their opinion and share their thoughts on the questions is there???
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Actually anyone who is in favour of Parelli on here get attacked. People who post pathetic silly childish comments need to wake up. Jeez do they really think they are so perfect. I certainly don't.. I have read many a post on here with dangerous pathetic advice from know it alls that know naf all.

Saying parelli people are like sheep or brainwashed is immature after all aren't they the brainwashed sheep adding to the slandering comments from others.

Its a sad thing when the H&H forum is known for being immature and bitchy. I rarely post here because of that and when I do pop in all I see is more bitchy comments.

Soo childish....
 
AshTay said:
This is all very one-sided.

First of all - I'm not a Parelli fan... I think it's all too much about the money and they have let themselves and their students down big-time with the recent displays of "unnatural horsemanship" discussed above.

However, I think it's unfair to be so critical of the followers of Parelli.

First of all - in response to the comment above "why doesn't she just ride it?" - owning a horse isn't just about the riding and for a lot of people it's so much more than that. But that's a whole other thread (bashing people who think horses are just for riding and valuing that above all else).

Secondly, I was at the Parelli celebration in 2009 (my friend won tickets - I'd never have paid to go and I was very sceptical) and I can't deny that seeing the relationship the more advanced students had with their horses was awe-inspiring and I defy anyone on here to say they would not like that level of understanding with their horses. I have a few friends who are Parelli followers and they range from an advanced dressage instructor who takes what she believes is right from the Parelli methods and uses it alongside her own methods very successfully, to a friend who has a full time job and limited time and finds the Parelli steps a great way to spend the little time she has in a focussed way, getting to know her horse. She can afford the prices and she enjoys having a set of "rules" to work to and she's smart enough to also acknowledge that Pat went too far with Catwalk. How can you criticise that???

Thirdly, not one of us is perfect in how we look after out horses. Some of us think it's ok to slap the latest gadget on our horse to "fix" a problem. Some of us think it's acceptable to keep them stabled for long periods at a time or to keep them in little separate individual paddocks with no contact with other horses. Some of us keep our horses purely to ride and the only time we spend with them is preparing them to be ridden. Some of us rug our horses early to stop their winter coat growing. But most of us do our best. And that's what Parelli followers are doing.

So please go ahead and bash Pat and Linda all you want to but please don't judge Parelli followers for wanting to achieve something special with their horse.

That was my twopenneth :)
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One of the best posts I have read in a long long time on here, says everything that needs saying. I've posted a couple of posts a few minutes ago that will upset those that are narrow minded but heck I don't care. if it upsets you then maybe you need to consider the real reason why.

It gets very tiring seeing constant Parelli bashing threads. I'd like to see those same people go and ear bash some of the top showjumpers, dressage diva's etc that enjoy and use some Parelli methods. :rolleyes:
 
Maybe the person who had the ride on Catwalk needs their ear bashing about the parelli methods.
While you are quite right about their being bad treatment in every sphere of horse care, most is not sold as the only way to relate to/work with your horse. I feel that the evangelical nature of the Pareli trademark causes some if not all of the reaction. Along with some awful behaviour towards horses.
 
I think the thing that gets me about Parelli is how, imo, they seem to be saying Parelli is the only way, and any other way is creul to your horse. Now I know not everyone who follows Parelli believes this, but I know an awful lot that do. And no matter how much Pat/Linda screw up (The Catwalk incident) they will take the bullet for them and somehow explain that what is quite obviously creul to me, is infact beneficial to the horse.
 
AndySpooner said:
Well Parelli again eh!

It's with some trepedation that I stick my toe into this particular stretch of water, but, here goes.

A number of topics here on the forum seem to provoke quite polarized views from the contributors. Barefoot and shod, natural horsemanship as opposed to more traditional methods of training, with Parelli natural horsemanship evoking very strong reactions.

Ray Hunt died recently, and he of course is one of the trainers in the line of Bill and Tom Dorrance, men who took a kinder gentler approach to horse training in the American West where pressures of time and money was great to 'break' large numbers of semi feral horses for the cattle ranching trade.

Their methods became known as Natural Horsemanship, but as Bill Dorrance himself said, 'It is not natural for horses to be around people, and its not natural for a person to sit on a horses back. When we use these words we speak about what's natural for the horse to do within his own boundaries.

These old horsemen have all gone now, and the world for horses will be a poorer place for their passing. Their methods however, go back to the advocacy of gentle methods by Xenophon in Ancient Greece.

The divergence, of European methods of horse training and North American methods only goes back to the 1800's and the openning up of the West. The people who did that were European with European values and traditions.

It was about this time that Black Beauty was published here, in an effort to highlight the routine cruelty to horses, on a daily basis, in our own towns, cities and villages.

There are lots of natrural horsemanship trainers now all over the world ,many of whom cite people like the Dorrances as being influential, indeed Pat Parelli, constantly refers to them and others.

Parelli Natural Horsemanship, has attempted to become synonymous with natural horsemanship, which of course, it is not. What they have attempted to do is package this skill and market it to the masses, by drip feeding information for money. Corporate America.

I have no problem with anyone marketing their skill, this is what every riding instructor does every day.

What worries me is this vociferous outcry by some to 'ban' Parelli. If you call for a ban on Parelli training, you must surely ban dressage and steeple chasing, horse racing, trotting the list goes on.

No one can say that cruelty does not exist here in the UK, ask HAPPA and Redwings and the rest.

In my opinion, and I have been around horses all my life, owned and worked strings of horses, natrural horsemanship, is not the only way, but it is a fantastic way of building a truely wonderful relationship with your horse.
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Nice response!
 
Charem and YorksG - totally agree that the Parelli message seems to be that Parelli is the only way. Of course Parelli are going to say that - saying that has brought them multi-million dollar facilities and near-world domination (joke). If you talk to a car manufacturer they're going to say that their car is the ONLY car to be driving.

That's marketing.

(but the same accusation can also be applied to a lot of people who didn't have the entrepreneurial skills to put a brand on their methods and sell them to the world).

It's up to us as a horsey community to decide whether they're right. We can spend all day bitching about it because we can't afford it or aren't skinny and blonde enough to look like the girls in the promotional videos but I'd be interested in hearing some more specific reasons why we should hate them (aside from the extreme Catwalk and Linda episodes- which were bad but also seemed to be used as an excuse for flaming all their methods).
 
AndySpooner said:
There are lots of natrural horsemanship trainers now all over the world ,many of whom cite people like the Dorrances as being influential, indeed Pat Parelli, constantly refers to them and others..................................



................What worries me is this vociferous outcry by some to 'ban' Parelli. If you call for a ban on Parelli training, you must surely ban dressage and steeple chasing, horse racing, trotting the list goes on.

No one can say that cruelty does not exist here in the UK, ask HAPPA and Redwings and the rest.

In my opinion, and I have been around horses all my life, owned and worked strings of horses, natrural horsemanship, is not the only way, but it is a fantastic way of building a truely wonderful relationship with your horse.
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While I agree with much of what you say, I'd like to respond with a couple of points. No one has actually called for a ban of Parelli on this thread. Yes, there is bad practice in all disciplines, but the Parelli's are marketing themselves as Natural Horsemen, working in partnership with the horse. What I have witnessed at Demo's is abuse and very unatural.
They use the names of respected old American horsemen to promote their approach to training, claiming they have influenced by their practice. Hmmmm, I don't think so...
The more I see of so called Natural Horsemanship, the more I think it has lost its way amidst a sea of different pracititioners all marketing their own package.
My respect goes to a local trainer, traditional and knowledgeable, who sorts out professional eventers most challenging young horses with no magic, just good old fashioned wisdom and talent.
 
Charem said:
I think the thing that gets me about Parelli is how, imo, they seem to be saying Parelli is the only way, and any other way is creul to your horse. Now I know not everyone who follows Parelli believes this, but I know an awful lot that do. And no matter how much Pat/Linda screw up (The Catwalk incident) they will take the bullet for them and somehow explain that what is quite obviously creul to me, is infact beneficial to the horse.
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I know you say IMO but since when has it been stated that Parelli is the only way and any other way is cruel to your horse.. Prove me wrong please do and show me an offical statement to back this up.

As you mentioned Catwalk, I to disgaree with what happened but a lot of statements are fictional and many by people who were not even there.

I like using a mixture of traditional and natural horsemanship, I am certainly not brainwashed nor a sheep but I do have happy healthy horses that people often comment on how good they are.

How when someone tries to approach them they don't want to know but come neighing and cantering over to me. So using some Parelli methods can't be as bad as many make out.

What I do agree with is many people start using Parelli methods and methods of say MR, MP etc and suddenly think they are horse experts and do use the equipment very wrongly upsetting the horses. This then gives NH a bad outlook.
 
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Andy Spooner I like your style, but I think you're wasting your largely breath on this forum. I think that we could have good discussions elsewhere.
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I think a lot are missing the point here. Nobody in Parelli is going to care if some here "boycott" what they do (I do agree - how can you boycott something you never attend?). You are not their target market, and they have plenty of interested people who will fill the seats.
I'm always amazed when people proclaim that they are pro Monty and anti Parelli. I know on the surface what they does looks different, but in terms of how they train horses I don't think you could get a fag paper between them.
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Tinypony said:
Andy Spooner I like your style, but I think you're largely wasting your breath on this forum. I think that we could have good discussions elsewhere.
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I don't see why said discussions can't take place here. If you go elsewhere you've let the bullies win. This is a public UK equestrian forum and people who practice Parelli have as much right to be here and express their opinions as anyone else. The very vocal minority of 'haters' will just have to learn to live with it.
 
I have other forums where I go to discuss nh-type stuff Golf Girl. We have some pretty "robust" discussions about Parelli there as well, because many feel that Parelli is getting the whole nh movement a bad name, and others think it isn't a great example of that sort of approach. The difference is that on this forum I think many people dismiss most of what nh-style trainers have to offer, because of their experiences and perceptions of Parelli. That isn't the case on other groups.
So I choose what I want to discuss on a particular forum, it's easier and less stressful.
 
KS1 said:
I know you say IMO but since when has it been stated that Parelli is the only way and any other way is cruel to your horse.. Prove me wrong please do and show me an offical statement to back this up.

As you mentioned Catwalk, I to disgaree with what happened but a lot of statements are fictional and many by people who were not even there.

I like using a mixture of traditional and natural horsemanship, I am certainly not brainwashed nor a sheep but I do have happy healthy horses that people often comment on how good they are.

How when someone tries to approach them they don't want to know but come neighing and cantering over to me. So using some Parelli methods can't be as bad as many make out.

What I do agree with is many people start using Parelli methods and methods of say MR, MP etc and suddenly think they are horse experts and do use the equipment very wrongly upsetting the horses. This then gives NH a bad outlook.
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And thats what makes you different from the die hard parellis, you choose the ones that are sensible, good horsmanship and avoid the ones that, are well lets say not so good. I too agree with some of the things they do but tbh people have been using such techniques for a long time before Parelli came along.

The problem I have is a novice horse owner, which from what I can see tends to be their market will not know which techniques are good and which are bad.

'Rather than using fear and dominance to force or coerce change, teamwork is the operative model.'
^ This is taken from their website, now to the average rider it seems to be saying that everybody beats their horse in to submission to make them do the things required.

Ages ago I also got a Parelli flyer out of a magazine advertising their saddles. It had a picture of a hollow horse in red with the title 'traditional saddle' above it and saying all the bad things the traditional saddle does to a horse and then a picture of a round horse in green with the title 'Parelli saddle' and then saying lots of ways their saddle promotes the horses natural way of going. So basically, unless I fork out nearly £4000 (£3000 if your a 'saavy member!) on a parelli saddle my horse is always going to be in pain? I'm sure we are sensible enough to know that a correctly fitted tradional saddle is fine for our horse, but a novice may not realise this. Also, I understand that several other companies use this 'all saddles except ours will damage your horse's back' selling technique though Parelli's was pretty black and white with it.
 
Well said Charem. I didn't realise they were selling saddles for £3000. Seems they don't think much of our saddlers in the UK. did they say where their saddles were made.
 
You might think it's an ego thing Echo Brave, I don't care what you think really. What it is in fact is exhaustion. I'm just exhausted trying to have a sensible conversation about anything vaguely "nh" on here. That is because it doesn't matter how many open-minded people there are prepared to join in, the threads always go off down the same route with the same people (who are anti-Parelli and don't know much about other nh training) saying the same things. "It's too commercial" "It's just common sense" "I have a woman on my yard who does Parelli and her horse is a nightmare so natural horsemanship ruins horses". I defend their right to say it, but when it happens all the time then it just means the threads are constantly hijacked and the original topic gets lost.
So here I talk to people about the things they are mostly interested in, and that I am also interested in. Then I go elsewhere to talk to people who like to chat about nh, generally on forums where there is slightly stronger moderation so threads don't get so bogged down.
 
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Tinypony said:
I'm just exhausted trying to have a sensible conversation about anything vaguely "nh" on here.
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Have there been threads started about NH in general (not Parelli)? I'm afraid I must have missed them because of the way threads disappear down the list so quickly. :(

Then I go elsewhere to talk to people who like to chat about nh, generally on forums where there is slightly stronger moderation so threads don't get so bogged down.
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Where would recommend to go for a reasonable discussion?
 
It does seem that NH is a dirty word, mainly because of the Parelli contribution. I can't think of any mainstream UK horse forums where the Parelli's are greeted with anything but scepticism. I would be interested to know of one that isn't.
That does not automatically mean their critics are traditional, clip-rug-stable-shoe-& whip'em-diehards. Quite the opposite in my case.
Unfortunately, I have yet to see a postive example of parelli, either by demo's I have walked out of, or by parelli devotees I know. Not one of them actually rides their horses, with the exception of one lady, who will ride her horse in company with a 'safe' horse and only at walk. And definitely not on 'bin collection' day.
 
I am fairly critical of Parelli, based on the knowledge I gained when I was a Parelli student. However, with a bit of common sense I think I managed to avoid my horses being switched off, or over sensitive. They were safe to handle and good fun to ride. All my Parelli friends rode their horses too. I expanded my horizons, learnt more, that clarified why I was uncomfortable with certain aspects of Parelli, and I moved on. Still very nh style, but not a lot like Parelli (apart from long ropes and the occasional cowboy hat LOL).
 
horserider said:
Unfortunately, I have yet to see a postive example of parelli, either by demo's I have walked out of, or by parelli devotees I know. Not one of them actually rides their horses, with the exception of one lady, who will ride her horse in company with a 'safe' horse and only at walk. And definitely not on 'bin collection' day.
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Unfortunately, some horses are not safe to be ridden by the person who owns them, for one reason or another. Parelli offers a solution to such horse owners other than the more usual 'get rid of it and buy another'. It allows horse and owner to stay together and work on the underlying problems, and at the same time build a firm bond of communication and trust between them. How can that not be, as you put it, 'positive'?

As I've said before, it's not a 'quick fix', it's a lifestyle choice that some people make if they value their relationship with their horse more than anything else (such as winning prizes) :)
 
Golf Girl said:
Unfortunately, some horses are not safe to be ridden by the person who owns them, for one reason or another. Parelli offers a solution to such horse owners other than the more usual 'get rid of it and buy another'. It allows horse and owner to stay together and work on the underlying problems, and at the same time build a firm bond of communication and trust between them. How can that not be, as you put it, 'positive'?

As I've said before, it's not a 'quick fix', it's a lifestyle choice that some people make if they value their relationship with their horse more than anything else (such as winning prizes) :)
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Quite true that some horses are not safe to be ridden and finding other ways to stimulate and have interaction with your horse is pretty important, particularly for horses living on restricted acreage with small numbers of horses.
I do not think Parelli is the solution for vunerable horses though. Horse I bought 6 months ago was deemed very dangerous,vet, YO and farrier thought she was too disturbed to ever be right and all said she should be shot.
Took 3 months of commonsense and no carrot stick to get that horse confident, happy and loving her work.
In contrast, old yard had two Parelli students who had gone through some levels, can't remember how far now, but one of them wouldn't talk to anyone except the other parelli fan and neither could actually ride their horses,2 of which had been bred by their owner.

I'm not into winning prizes either, we go to a 'party' once or twice a year as part of their all round education if its a nice day for a picnic.
 
horserider said:
Horse I bought 6 months ago was deemed very dangerous,vet, YO and farrier thought she was too disturbed to ever be right and all said she should be shot.
Took 3 months of commonsense and no carrot stick to get that horse confident, happy and loving her work.
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Good on you! Many would just have blindly followed the 'experts'' advice ....
 
Oh, and at the beginning of August I got a Section B 10 year old broodmare who wasn't handled at all. She couldn't bare to be away from another horse, and she reared constantly as she didn't know any better. You couldn't touch her at first.
Now in October, she's the sweetest little mare who loves attention, cuddles, and working. She's also registered BSJA now. No carrot sticks or 'taches in sight :D !!
 
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