Parliament Square Protest 2004 v G20 2009

[rafferty]

Quote "Someone with five dogs that he lets off the lead in the middle of nowhere?"

badgers dont run as fast as dogs and dont run full stop.
you're either making it up or letting your dogs attack badgers, which is it.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I know this was directed at Hebegebe but to me it doesn't matter if they were pro-hunting or anti-hunting demonstrations - those people did not deserve that level of force directed at them.

The sad thing about 2004 was that it was the first time hunting supporters were involved in direct confrontation with the police. In 2002, we blocked Parliament Square for over an hour (several hundred people sitting peacefully in the road) and the police agreed a time at which we would clear the road - and stood back until we did. There were friendly discussions and agreement between organisers and the police -and a totally peaceful protest.

In 2004, we knew in advance that things had changed. Senior police officers made it clear that they had their orders from 'on high' and that there would be zero tolerance. They were apparently fearful that we would 'storm Parliament' (which was NEVER considered as a tactic by the CA or by CAN. The Govt. was determined not to be 'humiliated' by a high profile protest - and Otis and his 'troops' were already inside Parliament anyway.

Some police officers took their orders rather literally - and zero tolerance became extreme force. Some hunt supporters DID wind things up a bit - throwing plastic pop bottles and letting off a few fire-crackers - the police got rattled and innocent people got hurt. But that does tend to happen when Governments try to prevent peaceful protest!

 

[zigzagzig]

The Parliament Square riot was a PR disaster for hunters. Far more of a disaster than the other pathetic PR stunts which you supported, namely defacing an ancient monument and blocking motorways.

 

[Hebegebe]

Quote "Someone with five dogs that he lets off the lead in the middle of nowhere?"

badgers dont run as fast as dogs and dont run full stop.
you're either making it up or letting your dogs attack badgers, which is it.

Don't be stupid when they chased a badger I called them off. What do you think I am? Do you thi9nk I would let my dpgs attack a badger? That's bloody ridiculous. Besides the dog would probably come off worse!

If they chase a deer then iit runs far faster so there is no problem.

If they chase a squirrel it runs up a tree, again no problem.

PS badgers do run btw, or this one did. Maybe not especially fast.

 

[Scratchline]

"the drunken yobbo hunters were attacking the police outside the home of democracy"

I was there all day and I saw no-one who was drunk. Furthermore, no protester was convicted of attacking the police.

If the behaviour of these protestors was not drink induced then I for one am even more horrified. It is very rarely we see such anger directed at our police who represent all of us!

 

[Hebegebe]

What do you think of the policeman pushing over the newspaper seller at the G20 protest?


What vdid you think of the behaviour of the police at the Hunting Protest?

Have you ever been at a protest which turned violent?

Have you ever witnessed people being beaten by police?

 

[Hebegebe]

What do you think about the way the police man hits this woman?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8005503.stm

Do you think that is the kind of thing that makes people get violent?

 

[Scratchline]

What do you think of the policeman pushing over the newspaper seller at the G20 protest?

Newspaper seller? lol lol lol His profession has absolutely nothing to do with it. I believe from what we already know and have seen he was an obsructive drunk who wouldnt move on however many times police had tried over some hours. Police push drunks away every Friday and Saturday night on our streets.
Beyond that I dont know much more and dont wish to speculate given the current situation and forum rules on such investigations/court cases.

 

[Scratchline]

What vdid you think of the behaviour of the police at the Hunting Protest?

Considering the anger and emotion involved and shown by the protestors ( perdy explained to us about the anger pre event and it was clearly on show at the protest), I do not believe the police did anything wrong. The video evidence is avaliable and very eye opening. Many of the hunting fraternity were absolutely out of control and payed the price of unlawfull protest/riot IMHO

 

[Scratchline]

Have you ever been at a protest which turned violent?
Have you ever witnessed people being beaten by police?

I have never been at a protest which turned violent. I wouldnt ever be a party to it if I had, I would F off the other way immediately!
I have attended numerous football matches ( in the bad old days.......I am an Everton supporter and true Scouser. I came here to Cornwall when I left the Army), so have seen all the violence as you can imagine. The riots in Liverpool, running battles against Man U fans across my home city on a Saturday afternoon regardless of the public. Anyone who gets involved with violence or disorder of any kind on our streets should be dealt with as necessary. Treat the police that badly and expect the worst. Rightly or wrongly, that is how it is. Why should we expect the police to put up with such behaviour?!

 

[Hebegebe]

And swipe that them with batons?

So this guy was walking away from the police with his hands in his pockets and they push him violently to the ground and you think this is acceptable.

You also think the police behavior on the hunting demo was acceptable.

Do you think giving women a blow across the face with the back of one's hand is acceptable too? And beating her across the ;legs with a stick when she gets a bit uppitty?

It strikes me there is a pattern here.

How about if I smacked your dad across the mouth and pushed him to the ground on the street. Would that be ok?

 

[Scratchline]

What do you think about the way the police man hits this woman?

Seen it and think it was out of order when he hit her with his hand.

Do you think that is the kind of thing that makes people get violent?

Yes and it did when he hit her, the mood of those around changed immediately. When the atmosphere changes like that, if you stay and fight the police you will lose. Go home, get out of there. If it is not why you attended then do not be a party to any of it. If you stay, get involved then people will have no sympathy for you.

 

[Hebegebe]

So you accept that the way the police behave can maker a massive difference to how a demonstration pans out?

Basically they can change the course of a demo and make it turn violent?

Say for instance smacking a crowd of angry people across the head with pbatons. How do you think that might influence things.

Moreover if people get cross there will be no sympathy for them? That's your view?

So basically the police have a free rein then?

 

[Scratchline]

And swipe that them with batons?

Oh, a new question. To keep order or prevent further disturbence, as necessary yes. Dont like it then do not in anyway get involved in violent protest!

So this guy was walking away from the police with his hands in his pockets and they push him violently to the ground and you think this is acceptable.

He had been hanging around obstructing the police for a long time. He had already been involved in a confrontation with the police. He wouldnt move on, he wouldnt go home. it happens all the time. Drunks causing a nuisence will not get out of the way and are forcebly encouraged. This time he went down. Unless you know more about the case which you care to divulge, that is what happened.

You also think the police behavior on the hunting demo was acceptable.

Faced with such anger and violence on the streets of this country, yes. It matters not who was involved. The police met force with force with a riotous mob on the whole!

Do you think giving women a blow across the face with the back of one's hand is acceptable too?

Answered.

And beating her across the ;legs with a stick when she gets a bit uppitty?

His first action was wrong. Beyond that she had no intention of walking away and was going to play a part in an escalation of the situation IMO. I guess that is why he then used his stick rightly against her legs to get rid of her. Like I have said, go home, get out of there or no doubt you will pay a price.

It strikes me there is a pattern here.

It strikes me this is the point you will get silly although heaven knows why you feel the need to mate!

How about if I smacked your dad across the mouth and pushed him to the ground on the street. Would that be ok?

I was right then. I will not answer because you are just being silly and arguementative unless you are talking of exactly the same situation???

 

[Hebegebe]

" Dont like it then do not in anyway get involved in violent protest!"

What chouice doid the newspaper seller have? He wasn't even facing the police his hands were in his pockets and he wasn't even protesting!

Why swipe him with a baton?

Do you thinki it is good policing to hit drunks with batons?

As for the woman. You are saying it was wrong for hhim to hit her but when that made her angry and she started remonstrating with him he bwas right to beat her with a baton.

So basically if a policeman hits you jusrt walk away. If you get annoyed you deserve a good hard battering?

 

[Scratchline]

So you accept that the way the police behave can maker a massive difference to how a demonstration pans out?

Basically they can change the course of a demo and make it turn violent?

Say for instance smacking a crowd of angry people across the head with pbatons. How do you think that might influence things.

Moreover if people get cross there will be no sympathy for them? That's your view?

So basically the police have a free rein then?

If people get "cross"??? FFS either face up to the reality of the anger and violence of these protests or dont debate them!
The police do not have free rein as any action following complaints will show. They have to use their judgement but when faced with such agresive and violent protests they have the backing of us to deal with it, we expect them to.
It is very obvious and always has been that those involved in such protest or who support it moan about police behaviour whilst completely ignoring the behaviour of the protestors.

When viewed without high emotion by those not involved both sides are seen clearly. If you know the nature of the protest has changed yet choose to be involved STILL then you will not get much sympathy form the public. Simple.

 

[Hebegebe]

But the police tactics are to contain protesters in a 'kettle'. Once in the kettle they don't have a choice but to stay at the protest.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8000641.stm

 

[Scratchline]

" What chouice doid the newspaper seller have? He wasn't even facing the police his hands were in his pockets and he wasn't even protesting!

Just what exactly was he doing there? Why was he falling out with the police all the time that afternoon? What had gone on with him and the police leading up to that moment? Why didnt he just go home? Why was he being as obstructive as possible to the police that day if he wasnt involved?

Why swipe him with a baton?

I didnt so you will have to ask the officer who did why he felt it was needed.

Do you thinki it is good policing to hit drunks with batons?

It depends on the circumstances. Having been a doorman, having had to deal with people who are drunk. I would either ban drink or allow drunks to be hit with just about anything to hand.

As for the woman. You are saying it was wrong for hhim to hit her but when that made her angry and she started remonstrating with him he bwas right to beat her with a baton.

His first hit with the hand across the face was out of order. He should have just hit her on the legs with the baton immediately if he felt it necessary to move her out of his face in the climate.

[qoute]So basically if a policeman hits you jusrt walk away.

Walk away and report the incident. Unless of course you want to escalate the situation and get yourself in serious trouble/danger.

If you get annoyed you deserve a good hard battering?

You are saying that, I have not. Get annoyed all you want. It is how you behave when annoyed that matters.

 

[Hebegebe]

You are saying that, I have not. Get annoyed all you want. It is how you behave when annoyed that matters.

and how she behaved was to get upset and shout at the policeman and for that she deserved a clubbing?

 

[Hebegebe]

I really don't get you. if what the guy was doing warranted him being violently assaulted surely they could just have arrested him.

It sounds to me that they were p1ssed off with him so they assaulted him.

 

[Scratchline]

But the police tactics are to contain protesters in a 'kettle'. Once in the kettle they don't have a choice but to stay at the protest.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8000641.stm

I am sorry mate and will not call you a liar but what you have written above is completely untrue. Even proven by the link you have provided.

"Anyone determined to stay - like Ms Trench - may be held for hours, without access to food and water. "


"Eventually", say the police, "most [protesters] get fed-up and agree to depart peacefully."

 

[Scratchline]

and how she behaved was to get upset and shout at the policeman and for that she deserved a clubbing?

You are asking me to answer questions that I am unable to because I do not have all the facts. I have given my opinion and I believe there is an ongoing investigation into this matter which will no doubt reveal all that happened and whether such behaviour was right or legal.

 

[Hebegebe]

Oh yeah quite and if a policeman hits you at a demo then go away and report it and it will all be sorted out lol

 

[Hebegebe]

The point is that you said if you don't want to be involved then just leave but kettling stops people from being able to leave.

 

[Scratchline]

I really don't get you. if what the guy was doing warranted him being violently assaulted surely they could just have arrested him.

This wasnt just a normal day in London. This was the notorious G20 summit. He was hit with a baton and fell when pushed. Let us await the investigation.

It sounds to me that they were p1ssed off with him so they assaulted him.

Okay. Lets leave it before we get ourselves in trouble with the forum bosses ))

 

[Scratchline]

The point is that you said if you don't want to be involved then just leave but kettling stops people from being able to leave.

Not according to the report you posted. Once the police feel it necessary to kettle they do so for a reason. If you then wish to leave, stop being involved, go home then you can. You cannot leave the kettle to continue to protest.

 

[Scratchline]

Oh yeah quite and if a policeman hits you at a demo then go away and report it and it will all be sorted out lol

Yeah funny. But not as stupid as staying, continueing with the behaviour that got you into trouble in the first place. Getting into even more trouble and then WHINGING about it! LMAO

 

[Hebegebe]

Oh yeah quite and if a policeman hits you at a demo then go away and report it and it will all be sorted out lol

Yeah funny. But not as stupid as staying, continueing with the behaviour that got you into trouble in the first place. Getting into even more trouble and then WHINGING about it! LMAO

Seems quite effective to me. She's got £50,000 for her efforts and the matter is being investigated :grin:

 

[Hebegebe]

"fell when pushed"

haha I LOVE that expression!

A bit like 'he knocked his head against my boot'

 

[Hebegebe]

"Police may occasionally relieve some of the pressure on the kettle by allowing people to leave"

Is what it actually says. In general you cannot go if you wish. They cannot tell if you want to go home or will carry on protesting elsewhere.