Pass him by.

I can see your point PR and I don't think you're preaching, or trying to convert anyone. I kind of agree with you, there's nothing like a well cared for naked hoof that has been like that for all of the horse's life.
When I consider Rockley Farm for example I'm certain that there aren't many horses that can't make a transition to no shoes, including roadwork, hunting etc. But I do feel that a lot of owners are in a situation where their horses couldn't be unshod because the conditions they are in are wrong, and personally wouldn't be trying to persuade them.
 
My first BF horse did extremely well BF but once he was hunting two days a week and doing long days he got foot sore , one day or two short days where fine two full ones was not so he Had put shoes put on.
He now works with and without shoes depending on what he's up to it works really well.
My tb had night mare feet and spent a year BF but was not happy XC jumping bf he's big and a very extravagant mover we shod studded him instant improvement in performance .
He had his shoes removed in November had a short break and then went straight into light work with no soreness what so ever horses based on this addmittedly small sample the transition to BF is more difficult the first time after that it's much easier .
I feel that way we get the best of both worlds .
Handling the farriers is the tricky bit.
The trimmer is very open minded and supportive.
 
khalswitz said:
My horse DOES need shoes. He has good feet, even though a TB, and if we went barefoot he probably would cope fine to an extent, but our problem is that we do LOADS of roadwork. As in about 90% or our hacking is roadwork. We're decreasing our shoeing time from 8 weeks to 5 as he is wearing shoes to razors super quick. Can you imagine if that was his feet? Whilst good quality horn and hard, they don't grow very quick - and I could see them wearing to nothing with the amount of roadwork we do.

Whether a horse has shoes or not doesn't affect my judgement, but each to their own - for me, barefoot isn;t important itself, it's how my horses go, and if they need shoes, then they need shoes.
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I can understand why you think that way - I used to be in the same boat. I love hacking and the farrier I used before I moved, used to comment that CM wore her shoes out more than any of his other customers. When I ended up having to take her BF, I was worried about wearing her hooves to bloody nubs so built up the roadwork slowly. I was amazed by the difference in horn growth between the same horse being shod and unshod. I now struggle to do enough roadwork and I have never managed to reach the point of self trimming. She just responds to the upped roadwork by growing even more hoof.
 
I appreciate the sentiment - when I bought my big mare last year she wasn't shod but was usually shod in front when in work. She had symmetrical splits down the front of both hooves, hardly any heel bulb or frog to speak of and a massive gutter insead of a white line. She was hugely over weight as well and I thought if I could get the weight down and calm her metabolic system down with correct feeding and minerals this would come. Whilst it has def improved we still have the gutter which just won't tighten up and means she is prone to getting gravel v stuck etc

Its def something Id be happier with when buying, and tbh Id love to breed off one of my own just to see if the way I keep them, i.e. track system, balanced minerals etc would give pretty good feet on one who'd never been shod.

Id be wary of buying something which has been used in studs a lot due to the extra exertion on the tendons when going at speed but effectively having a handbrake on the bottom of the hoof.
 
LittleRocketRider said:
fair point...but where did the brumbies descend from...escaped horses from european settlers. i t would be interesting to do a study in the uK
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The brumbies are probably a good group to study as they would be close to the domesticated horses that the study is going to be applied to. What would be interesting is a study into ridden horses in the UK who are unshod - but I doubt that will happen as people may not like the results.
 
khalswitz said:
My horse DOES need shoes. He has good feet, even though a TB, and if we went barefoot he probably would cope fine to an extent, but our problem is that we do LOADS of roadwork. As in about 90% or our hacking is roadwork. We're decreasing our shoeing time from 8 weeks to 5 as he is wearing shoes to razors super quick. Can you imagine if that was his feet? Whilst good quality horn and hard, they don't grow very quick - and I could see them wearing to nothing with the amount of roadwork we do.

Whether a horse has shoes or not doesn't affect my judgement, but each to their own - for me, barefoot isn;t important itself, it's how my horses go, and if they need shoes, then they need shoes.
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Yes you'd think they would wouldn't you? But they don't. I ride in a city so all our hacking is roads or a stony track on the Cotswold way and even though I rode my boy daily on the roads, I STILL had to trim his feet!

Also, the quality of the hoof changes too when you do a lot of roadwork and it doesn't take long to change... Like three weeks!

If horses biologically NEEDED shoes, well, they wouldn't have evolved hooves in the first place. Check out The Cloud Foundation to see wild horses in America with the most amazing feet!
 
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Faracat said:
I can understand why you think that way - I used to be in the same boat. I love hacking and the farrier I used before I moved, used to comment that CM wore her shoes out more than any of his other customers. When I ended up having to take her BF, I was worried about wearing her hooves to bloody nubs so built up the roadwork slowly. I was amazed by the difference in horn growth between the same horse being shod and unshod. I now struggle to do enough roadwork and I have never managed to reach the point of self trimming. She just responds to the upped roadwork by growing even more hoof.
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First, no way am I suggesting you alter what is working! Regular trimming can also encourage growth as the hoof perceives it as wear so speeds up growth to try and keep up.
 
I am a huge fan of barefoot but not to the detriment of the horse I have a pony with me just now that has spent her first 7 and a half years barefoot She went lame in november as a result of wearing her feet to quote from farrier "If I had trimmed her feet that short she would be pouring blood" three weeks on she has for the first time got shoes on the front and is happier more relaxed moving better and even schooling better No longer snatching her feet from the floor and is no longer lame. However I have three more that will likely never wear shoes have feet like concrete and are happy hacking miles and miles along the road without issue So horses for courses One will stay shod as that what keeps her comfortable the other three will remain barefoot unless they too have problems
 
Half the horses here are shod, the rest are barefoot. Even my farrier who's livelihood depends on it, says shoeing is bad for horses' feet. He said problems such as under run heels were extremely rare many years ago because virtually all horses had a break from shoes for a few months every year. Horses such as hunters would have had the shoes removed when the hunting season ended and would not be shod again until they came back into work. Now these hunters very often go on to do other things such as show jumping or eventing when there is no hunting and so never get a break from shoes.
 
Wagtail said:
Even my farrier who's livelihood depends on it, says shoeing is bad for horses' feet. He said problems such as under run heels were extremely rare many years ago because virtually all horses had a break from shoes for a few months every year. Horses such as hunters would have had the shoes removed when the hunting season ended and would not be shod again until they came back into work. Now these hunters very often go on to do other things such as show jumping or eventing when there is no hunting and so never get a break from shoes.
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I have read having a regular break from shoes for the hooves to recover is also in most Farriery text books.
 
Breaks from shoeing are vital and as wagtail says have fallen out of fashion for many reasons.
I have always given my horses twelve weeks per year with out shoes but one thing I realised from the forum that I can have them without shoes and work and train them and then shoe when I really need to .
It's still pretty unusal though judging by people's reactions when the horses go to clinics and things without shoes .
 
Faracat said:
I can understand why you think that way - I used to be in the same boat. I love hacking and the farrier I used before I moved, used to comment that CM wore her shoes out more than any of his other customers. When I ended up having to take her BF, I was worried about wearing her hooves to bloody nubs so built up the roadwork slowly. I was amazed by the difference in horn growth between the same horse being shod and unshod. I now struggle to do enough roadwork and I have never managed to reach the point of self trimming. She just responds to the upped roadwork by growing even more hoof.
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I tried barefoot to start (he came barefoot) but he was continually footsore when hacked on the tarmac. I kept him barefoot for six weeks after starting roadwork, and he was just getting more and more uncomfortable (and therefore grumpy! as a super sharp horse I try to avoid that!). Since he's been shod, he's never had a problem - but wears shoes out like no tomorrow. And when he was barefoot, he was doing much less work than he is now, too!

Part of his hoof problem I think is that he needs a relatively high selenium content in his diet for his EPSM, to help with muscle problems, and it does decrease hoof quality in higher levels. So shoes help balance that out. And re: diet (as I'm so often told if he doesn't take to barefoot then must be a diet problem) he is on an EPSM diet anyway, so super low starch and sugar, high oil and fibre. So it's not sugars etc in his diet causing a problem. He just doesn't grow quickly enough to avoid going footsore.

And tallyho, I appreciate your points, except that regarding being 'biologically evolved'. TB's etc are so bred for purpose that I think it DOES affect the feet - they aren't selected for good feet the way more natural breeds are, and use shoes to compensate, therefore the average quality of feet goes down. Not to say they can't go barefoot, but they have adapted to being made sound by shoes, and that carries on genetically, so there is a higher incidence of horses with poor feet/lack of horn growth etc. Mine just struggles to grow horn at the rate required for the roadwork we do (1.5-2 hrs 5 mornings a week of pure roadwork).

Not that I haven't tried, and on much less distance of roads, but I had essentially a lame horse on my hands even six weeks later after introducing work on the hard ground (and this horse had been barefoot for two years when I got him...)
 
windand rain said:
I am a huge fan of barefoot but not to the detriment of the horse I have a pony with me just now that has spent her first 7 and a half years barefoot She went lame in november as a result of wearing her feet to quote from farrier "If I had trimmed her feet that short she would be pouring blood" three weeks on she has for the first time got shoes on the front and is happier more relaxed moving better and even schooling better No longer snatching her feet from the floor and is no longer lame. However I have three more that will likely never wear shoes have feet like concrete and are happy hacking miles and miles along the road without issue So horses for courses One will stay shod as that what keeps her comfortable the other three will remain barefoot unless they too have problems
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Very sensible.
 
khalswitz said:
I tried barefoot to start (he came barefoot) but he was continually footsore when hacked on the tarmac. I kept him barefoot for six weeks after starting roadwork, and he was just getting more and more uncomfortable (and therefore grumpy! as a super sharp horse I try to avoid that!). Since he's been shod, he's never had a problem - but wears shoes out like no tomorrow. And when he was barefoot, he was doing much less work than he is now, too!

Part of his hoof problem I think is that he needs a relatively high selenium content in his diet for his EPSM, to help with muscle problems, and it does decrease hoof quality in higher levels. So shoes help balance that out. And re: diet (as I'm so often told if he doesn't take to barefoot then must be a diet problem) he is on an EPSM diet anyway, so super low starch and sugar, high oil and fibre. So it's not sugars etc in his diet causing a problem. He just doesn't grow quickly enough to avoid going footsore.

And tallyho, I appreciate your points, except that regarding being 'biologically evolved'. TB's etc are so bred for purpose that I think it DOES affect the feet - they aren't selected for good feet the way more natural breeds are, and use shoes to compensate, therefore the average quality of feet goes down. Not to say they can't go barefoot, but they have adapted to being made sound by shoes, and that carries on genetically, so there is a higher incidence of horses with poor feet/lack of horn growth etc. Mine just struggles to grow horn at the rate required for the roadwork we do (1.5-2 hrs 5 mornings a week of pure roadwork).

Not that I haven't tried, and on much less distance of roads, but I had essentially a lame horse on my hands even six weeks later after introducing work on the hard ground (and this horse had been barefoot for two years when I got him...)
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Fair enough. Incidentally, the horse I was talking about had EMS and I was surprised how well he did!

As for biological/genetics, I don't think it's true that TBs have bad feet because of the breeding, its more to do with the diet that causes their problems. As you say, they are selectively bred but they are descendants of some of the hardiest breeds the world has seen! It just doesn't make sense that good feet have been bred out of them. Generally speaking!
 
tallyho! said:
As for biological/genetics, I don't think it's true that TBs have bad feet because of the breeding, its more to do with the diet that causes their problems. As you say, they are selectively bred but they are descendants of some of the hardiest breeds the world has seen! It just doesn't make sense that good feet have been bred out of them. Generally speaking!
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Load of rubbish if you ask me. Certainly where I live. I have loads of TBs on my farm and not one of them wears (or needs) shoes. They all have the most beautiful feet, hard and of terrific shape. I can't remember the last time I saw a TB for sale in my area saying it has to wear shoes, but then as I've said, in the area of the country I live in, ANY horse wearing shoes is definitely seen as an oddity.
 
tallyho! said:
Fair enough. Incidentally, the horse I was talking about had EMS and I was surprised how well he did!

As for biological/genetics, I don't think it's true that TBs have bad feet because of the breeding, its more to do with the diet that causes their problems. As you say, they are selectively bred but they are descendants of some of the hardiest breeds the world has seen! It just doesn't make sense that good feet have been bred out of them. Generally speaking!
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I agree with both points.

If you found that your horse really wasn't coping BF/unshod with that lever of work, then the horse's welfare must come first. Either reduce the work or shoe.

When you look at horses with real genetic hoof problems (eg Connemaras with HWSS) it is nothing like the long toe/under-run heels that you see with TB's (AKA typical TB feet). Also the hooves are such an integral part of running fast that I just don't believe that the hoof quality has been bred out of the breed. Plus you can get long toes/under-run heels/contracted heels in other breeds not just TB's or PBTB's. The key IMO is shoeing from a young age, not feeding a 'BF friendly' diet and damage from the shoes themselves (long term shoeing). If it was genetic, then you wouldn't be able to solve their hoof problems with diet/BF rehab etc... You can't fix HWSS whatever you do, because it's genetic.
 
Spring Feather said:
Load of rubbish if you ask me. Certainly where I live. I have loads of TBs on my farm and not one of them wears (or needs) shoes. They all have the most beautiful feet, hard and of terrific shape. I can't remember the last time I saw a TB for sale in my area saying it has to wear shoes, but then as I've said, in the area of the country I live in, ANY horse wearing shoes is definitely seen as an oddity.
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:) Quite, its just a misunderstanding in this country as most TBs are OTT having been shod since they were 2yo. Then fed a high starch diet. Feet will be affected as we all know that diet affects hooves radically. My friend owns a barefoot yard and the tbs there are unshod and have brilliant feet. They are not fed a racing diet as they are not racing. Henceforth the feet are healthy and more importantly, normal.
 
tallyho! said:
Fair enough. Incidentally, the horse I was talking about had EMS and I was surprised how well he did!

As for biological/genetics, I don't think it's true that TBs have bad feet because of the breeding, its more to do with the diet that causes their problems. As you say, they are selectively bred but they are descendants of some of the hardiest breeds the world has seen! It just doesn't make sense that good feet have been bred out of them. Generally speaking!
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Spring Feather said:
Load of rubbish if you ask me. Certainly where I live. I have loads of TBs on my farm and not one of them wears (or needs) shoes. They all have the most beautiful feet, hard and of terrific shape. I can't remember the last time I saw a TB for sale in my area saying it has to wear shoes, but then as I've said, in the area of the country I live in, ANY horse wearing shoes is definitely seen as an oddity.
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Faracat said:
I agree with both points.

If you found that your horse really wasn't coping BF/unshod with that lever of work, then the horse's welfare must come first. Either reduce the work or shoe.

When you look at horses with real genetic hoof problems (eg Connemaras with HWSS) it is nothing like the long toe/under-run heels that you see with TB's (AKA typical TB feet). Also the hooves are such an integral part of running fast that I just don't believe that the hoof quality has been bred out of the breed. Plus you can get long toes/under-run heels/contracted heels in other breeds not just TB's or PBTB's. The key IMO is shoeing from a young age, not feeding a 'BF friendly' diet and damage from the shoes themselves (long term shoeing). If it was genetic, then you wouldn't be able to solve their hoof problems with diet/BF rehab etc... You can't fix HWSS whatever you do, because it's genetic.
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Very fair points. However my experience with TB's has been quite often of actual soft hoof as well as the typical TB shape - do you just account this to do with diet?
 
Cortez said:
Is your area quite dry, Spring Feather?
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We have 4 true seasons. Right now we're under a foot of snow with ice all over the place, and we've been like this for months now. This weather will go on for another 2 months and then we'll get spring. Sunshine and rain for a bit. Then we have summer; mega hot!! And very dry. That lasts till around September time and then we get autumn with it's rain showers and some nice days inbetween and then we're back to winter.
 
In my experience "barefoot" works best where it is relatively arid (used to live in Colorado), British Isles conditions (especially at the mo!) are a little more difficult.
 
Cortez said:
In my experience "barefoot" works best where it is relatively arid (used to live in Colorado), British Isles conditions (especially at the mo!) are a little more difficult.
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I don't get mud on my farm, which I'm sure helps. However loads of flat lying farms around here do, and their horses are still not shod. It's just not the norm around here and most horses have never had shoes on in their long lives. I wouldn't say we have the feed choice that is available in England, a lot of people feed naturals around here. People ride on roads and on trails, often the trails are very rough and ready so good feet are a must. In winter it would be not a good thing to have horses who live outside with shoes on, the snow would just ball up in their feet and on ice I'd imagine lethal!
 
khalswitz said:
Very fair points. However my experience with TB's has been quite often of actual soft hoof as well as the typical TB shape - do you just account this to do with diet?
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Mostly yes. However, each is an individual and if you have underlying issues then its not as simple as that. However, generally its just a case of keeping everything dead simple. A plain hi fibre diet is all that's needed.
 
Spring Feather said:
I don't get mud on my farm, which I'm sure helps. However loads of flat lying farms around here do, and their horses are still not shod. It's just not the norm around here and most horses have never had shoes on in their long lives. I wouldn't say we have the feed choice that is available in England, a lot of people feed naturals around here. People ride on roads and on trails, often the trails are very rough and ready so good feet are a must. In winter it would be not a good thing to have horses who live outside with shoes on, the snow would just ball up in their feet and on ice I'd imagine lethal!
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I honestly think the choice of feed in the UK is half the problem!! Nearly everything you buy is mollassed... And get this..... If you want natural unmollassed feed, its classed as "specialised"!!! Lol!! Well, unless you know what you are looking for. Dengie unmollassed is £12 and its just chaff!!!! It has less ingredients than the normal molglo'd stuff!!
 
khalswitz said:
Very fair points. However my experience with TB's has been quite often of actual soft hoof as well as the typical TB shape - do you just account this to do with diet?
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Yes, the right diet has a huge influence on the quality of the horn grown. Biotin alone just doesn't do it IME.
 
tallyho! said:
I honestly think the choice of feed in the UK is half the problem!! Nearly everything you buy is mollassed... And get this..... If you want natural unmollassed feed, its classed as "specialised"!!! Lol!! Well, unless you know what you are looking for. Dengie unmollassed is £12 and its just chaff!!!! It has less ingredients than the normal molglo'd stuff!!
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Since living here (and feed choices have grown in the time I've lived here but they're still nothing in the vast leagues of what you have available in the UK) I've often wondered if the UK makes just too many feeds and people become confused with everything out there. Sometimes it's maybe easier having limited choices and doing your own research to find out what works best. I feed mostly naturals to the regular riding horses and I feed balancers to the mares and foals. I don't overfeed though; the horses all have adlib hay all year round so I'm more a fibre feeder.
 
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