Passports and Trading Standards

[JillA]

Morning everyone - sorry I haven't been on here lately, long story but when it came to expertise in the world of horses I reckoned to find the best on here!
Has anyone had success with their local TS enforcing the passport regulations?
My friend (not the sharpest knife TBH) loaned his horse to someone who is now claiming he gifted it. I know passports aren't proof of ownership but he couldn't find it so as it was a loan he wasn't obliged to hand it over. He does have microchip and freeze brand details in his name. However, the loanee has taken out a second passport in her name, and I have been asking our local TS to see if they could find the original PIO and details. They have failed to and given up. BUT they are the enforcing authority and an offence has been committed by obtaining a second passport - they aren't interested, The new PIO should surely have questioned issuing a new passport for a 17 yr old horse, and this new one acts as a barrier to finding the original one so should they not have made extensive enquiries first?
I know it is a neglected area of law which makes it an expensive waste of time for us all but has anyone actually held TS feet to the fire and got them to investigate/prosecute as appropriate?
(We think by means of threats and negotiations we may have got the loanee to sign some sort of loan agreement, which we are awaiting, so fingers crossed that part of the problem will have been solved. But the lack of enforcement of the passport regulations is to say the least disturbing - have any transporters been found to be in breach??)

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s not a matter for trading standards .
Where is the original passport ?
Why did the owner not apply for a replacement .?

 

[Shay]

As you say passports are not proof of ownership. They have to be kept with the horse so in some ways the loanee was right to replace it. They would not be complying with the law themselves if they did not. There are no requirement tto check for previous passports - although that may change if / when NED becomes fully operational. Replacement passports should always have the horse signed out of the food chain just in case.

This is either a criminal matter - the horse was stolen - or a civil one. Tbh I doubt you will be able to interest the police so the best you can do is make a claim for the value of the animal through the courts.

 

[Pedantic]

Passports were just a money making scam.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think it will be a civil matter the loaner provided the loaner the horse without a passport , legally the horse needs one .
The owner has not got a passport (?) and appears not to have applied for an other .
The loaner got a passport and complied with the law .
It’s an ownership dispute .

 

[JillA]

It’s not a matter for trading standards .
Where is the original passport ?
Why did the owner not apply for a replacement .?

Trading standards are the enforcing authority for the law/regulations - it is they who are supposed to stop and check transporters and issue hefty fines. It is very much a matter for them. (If the loanee has a (fraudulent) passport she can sell the animal as a requirement is that you legally have to hand over the passport with the horse. Not the same for a loan). He isn't the most educated person and his paperwork is a shambles is the reason he couldn't find the original one.
Here is the relevant informaation http://www.standardbred.org/horsepassport.php.
I was just asking for experiences not holes to be picked in my post. The reason I haven't been here for a while

 

[ycbm]

Passports were just a money making scam.

Passports have stopped a lot of horse theft and microchips even more. It's a faff, an expense and a traceable record to have to reppassport a horse, so they steal quads instead these days. It also stopped the passing off of ex racers as part IDs suitable for anyone.

Horse owners sleep easier in their beds because of passports.
.

 

[JillA]

I think it will be a civil matter the loaner provided the loaner the horse without a passport , legally the horse needs one .
The owner has not got a passport (?) and appears not to have applied for an other .
The loaner got a passport and complied with the law .
It’s an ownership dispute .

Not true - see my answer above and read thee summary of the legal position - obtaining a second passport when one already exists is an offence

 

[ycbm]

Not true - see my answer above and read thee summary of the legal position - obtaining a second passport when one already exists is an offence

It's also an offence for the passport not to be kept with the horse. The loaner would have a good defence if the owner would not hand it over.
.

 

[JillA]

I am absolutely shocked at the lack of knowledge of the regulations - maybe you could read the summary linked above. It is important to all of us and vital that someone enforces it

 

[Shay]

Your own link clearly provides the manner in which a duplicate passport can be legally obtained. But I guess the answer to your question is no. I doubt anyone has any experience of trading standards enforcing this for the simple reason that they don't I'm afraid. Even if they did the penalty is only a fine - not the restitution of your horse. Passport regs have never been well enforced.

 

[dorsetladette]

I know passports aren't proof of ownership but he couldn't find it so as it was a loan he wasn't obliged to hand it over.

I think your friend has miss interpreted the law. A passport is a movement document and as such should be with the animal not the owner. Livery yards often ask for passports to be held on site for this very reason. And passports go with animals when they are transported.

 

[Shay]

Looking at the legislation the offence appears to be only if you declare the previous passport as lost when you know that it was not. In this case the origional was lost. Twice actually - the origional owner lost it and the new keeper (of whatever status) also has not got it. The passport is therefore lost and can be legally replaced.

 

[southerncomfort]

Slightly off topic, but if the passport is not proof of ownership then what is the point of going through the 'transfer of ownership' process and being listed as the new owner in the passport.

Surely the PI authority has seen a signed transfer of ownership form signed by the former owner giving approval to transfer ownership to the new owner? So how is that not proof?

Or does this refer to a case such as Jill has described whereby someone has a passport but their has been no authorisation to transfer ownership?

The whole system seems a bit of a mess to me.

 

[ycbm]

Looking at the legislation the offence appears to be only if you declare the previous passport as lost when you know that it was not. In this case the origional was lost. Twice actually - the origional owner lost it and the new keeper (of whatever status) also has not got it. The passport is therefore lost and can be legally replaced.

I'd go as far as to say it MUST be replaced and the loaner had no alternative.
.

 

[ycbm]

Slightly off topic, but if the passport is not proof of ownership then what is the point of going through the 'transfer of ownership' process and being listed as the new owner in the passport.

Surely the PI authority has seen a signed transfer of ownership form signed by the former owner giving approval to transfer ownership to the new owner? So how is that not proof?

Or does this refer to a case such as Jill has described whereby someone has a passport but their has been no authorisation to transfer ownership?

The whole system seems a bit of a mess to me.

The passport is for an animal in the meat chain. Change of ownership is a legal requirement for the tracing of the health history of the animal. We are odd ones out that we don't eat horse meat and we have lost sight of the main original purpose of horse passports.
.

 

[ycbm]

I am absolutely shocked at the lack of knowledge of the regulations - maybe you could read the summary linked above. It is important to all of us and vital that someone enforces it

You don't seem to be concerned that your friend can't find the original? They are the only one in this that has actually committed an offence, by not replacing it. The loaner was required to, by law, and did.
.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Ref TS, they have been involved in various large welfare cases when police and rescue agencies are involved in a lift. They are there to ensure and check that each animal has a passport and chip, it adds to a welfare case every time.

 

[meleeka]

The same thing happened to an acquaintance of mine (she had the original passport and receipt of purchase in her name) Nobody was at all interested in upholding the law and she never did get the horse back either. She doesn’t have the funds to take it to court. Sorry I couldn’t give a more positive reply, but horses are treated no more importantly than a bicycle in this country which imo is wrong.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Morning everyone - sorry I haven't been on here lately, long story but when it came to expertise in the world of horses I reckoned to find the best on here!
Has anyone had success with their local TS enforcing the passport regulations?
My friend (not the sharpest knife TBH) loaned his horse to someone who is now claiming he gifted it. I know passports aren't proof of ownership but he couldn't find it so as it was a loan he wasn't obliged to hand it over. He does have microchip and freeze brand details in his name. However, the loanee has taken out a second passport in her name, and I have been asking our local TS to see if they could find the original PIO and details. They have failed to and given up. BUT they are the enforcing authority and an offence has been committed by obtaining a second passport - they aren't interested, The new PIO should surely have questioned issuing a new passport for a 17 yr old horse, and this new one acts as a barrier to finding the original one so should they not have made extensive enquiries first?
I know it is a neglected area of law which makes it an expensive waste of time for us all but has anyone actually held TS feet to the fire and got them to investigate/prosecute as appropriate?
(We think by means of threats and negotiations we may have got the loanee to sign some sort of loan agreement, which we are awaiting, so fingers crossed that part of the problem will have been solved. But the lack of enforcement of the passport regulations is to say the least disturbing - have any transporters been found to be in breach??)

Sorry no, my ponies son was stolen from my friend the seller of my pony, and when pony pts due to colic, she gave me his son, but bf stole him changed passports, and passport agency and TS were useless.

 

[Goldenstar]

Of course the loaner is at fault .
While the loanee may have put their name of a replacement passport it’s a bit much to blame them when the owner of the horse ought to a fixed the issue when they handed over the horse .
The first infringement against the regulations was the owners .

 

[sport horse]

The original passport should have been with the horse and it is the owners responsibility to see that this happens. If he lost it then he should have replaced it.
The owner loaned the horse - where is the loan agreement? Did he not have one? If not more fool them.
The loaner got a new passport - did he inform the owner that unless the original was produced that would happen?
The loaner is claiming that the horse was a gift? What proof does he have? Was an agreement drawn up and signed by both parties?
It seems possible that everyone concerned may have been rather too casual in their dealings.
How to sort it? Go to court? For a 17 year old horse?
Probably just learn from your errors for next time but meanwhile please make sure the welfare of the horse is paramount.

 

[Equi]

Unfortunately it’s a civil matter. The only paper that should matter right now is the loan agreement or any texts/messages to the effect of loaning not gifting.

just out of nosiness, why does it all matter? Does the owner want the horse back now?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I would *think* that the loanee would have to show proof of ownership if she's claiming she owns the horse. This is why people often sell a horse for $1, in America, anyway. Then ownership can change hands, money was exchanged, there is a bill of sale and so on. Even if you are "gifted" a horse, you need proof that was what happened/how you became the owner.

I'd think that the actual owner would have some kind of proof that he owns the horse. Even if it is a long established history of paying for and caring for the horse. But then, how long has this loanee had the horse?

Either way, when you say you own something, I'd think they the burden of proof is on you. However, if neither one of these individuals can prove (not sure what the standard is here) that they outright own the horse, then it gets a bit more complex and I imagine they'd then look at how long the horse has been under the care of the most recent carer (loanee), who has been paying all of the expenses, etc.

 

[scruffyponies]

Many (most?) owners do not hand over the passport when loaning a horse, certainly for low value hackers / companions. It's seen as an insurance to prevent the loaner selling on.
If the loaner were to apply for a passport in their own name, that would be fraud and evidence of intent (theft).

 

[ihatework]

What is the owners ultimate aim for the horse? Do they want it back hence the ownership dispute?

 

[Dexter]

You do not have to hand over a passport when loaning. You do have to be able to produce it within a set number of hours though, I think its 2.

 

[Dexter]

And no sadly, trading standards will not enforce passports. I tried very hard to get them to do something when a horse I bought had duplicate passports and chips but they weren't interested at all.

 

[ycbm]

The same thing happened to an acquaintance of mine (she had the original passport and receipt of purchase in her name) Nobody was at all interested in upholding the law and she never did get the horse back either. She doesn’t have the funds to take it to court. Sorry I couldn’t give a more positive reply, but horses are treated no more importantly than a bicycle in this country which imo is wrong.

Depending on the value of the horse, it was £25 to open a small claim and another £25 to take it into court In 2018.

I'm not sure if people realise how easy and cheap it is to take a claim to the Small Claims court. You don't need a solicitor.
.

 

[ycbm]

Many (most?) owners do not hand over the passport when loaning a horse, certainly for low value hackers / companions. It's seen as an insurance to prevent the loaner selling on.
If the loaner were to apply for a passport in their own name, that would be fraud and evidence of intent (theft).

Wouldn't that depend on whether the owner can produce the passport at the place the horse is within 2 hours? It's the keeper who would be prosecuted if a passport can't be produced, so they would have every right to apply for a new one.
.