Passports and Trading Standards

[meleeka]

Depending on the value of the horse, it was £25 to open a small claim and another £25 to take it into court In 2018.

I'm not sure if people realise how easy and cheap it is to take a claim to the Small Claims court. You don't need a solicitor.
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That’s true but the person that now has the horse would have employed a solicitor to act and the rightful owner couldn’t have afforded one. If they were successful they may well have been awarded the value of the horse, given that the horse had “disappeared” by this time, but it wasn’t actually worth much in monetary value.

 

[ycbm]

You do not have to hand over a passport when loaning. You do have to be able to produce it within a set number of hours though, I think its 2.

https://www.gov.uk/horse-passport

You must keep a valid horse passport with your animal at all times. This includes at their stable or when you move them.

 

[ycbm]

That’s true but the person that now has the horse would have employed a solicitor to act and the rightful owner couldn’t have afforded one. If they were successful they may well have been awarded the value of the horse, given that the horse had “disappeared” by this time, but it wasn’t actually worth much in monetary value.

You don't need a solicitor to take a small claim. The process is set up to be easy for people to take a claim without paying for a solicitor. It doesn't matter if the other side has one or not, you don't need one.
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[CanteringCarrot]

Some jumbled thoughts here:

So, let me understand this (because I really don't know), it is on the loanee/person keeping the horse to make sure that the horse has a passport?

Why is the responsibility not on the owner to provide a passport with the horse? As in, if the horse doesn't have the passport, the owner must get a new one, not the loanee.

However, if you really want to take the horse on loan, and the loaner is uncooperative in getting the horse a new passport (a red flag and you'd possibly not want to deal with this person anyway, tbh) I suppose it is quicker and easier to do it yourself as the loanee? Is that how this happened?

I get that if the horse is in your care it is your responsibility to have the passport, but why is there no responsibility on the actual owner to keep/provide a passport when loaning?

 

[ycbm]

Some jumbled thoughts here:

So, let me understand this (because I really don't know), it is on the loanee/person keeping the horse to make sure that the horse has a passport?

Yes, it's on the person keeping the horse.

Why is the responsibility not on the owner to provide a passport with the horse? As in, if the horse doesn't have the passport, the owner must get a new one, not the loanee.

It is. At the point up to the loan the loaner is the keeper. The horse should not move without its passport.

 

[honetpot]

The same thing happened to an acquaintance of mine (she had the original passport and receipt of purchase in her name) Nobody was at all interested in upholding the law and she never did get the horse back either. She doesn’t have the funds to take it to court. Sorry I couldn’t give a more positive reply, but horses are treated no more importantly than a bicycle in this country which imo is wrong.

Why does she not take it to small claims, its cheap, you represent yourself and a lot is done over the phone. The person who has the horse will have to prove they have bought it from your friend. She may not get the horse back, but if they have to pay her they may give the horse back.
https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees

 

[meleeka]

You don't need a solicitor to take a small claim. The process is set up to be easy for people to take a claim without paying for a solicitor. It doesn't matter if the other side has one or not, you don't need one.
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If you need to attend court (which you would if the other side dispute the claim) and they have a solicitor, it would be hard to win when it’s essentially one persons word against another’s. I’ve done a few claims through work and luckily nobody has disputed it so far, but if they did we would need to attend a hearing.

 

[meleeka]

Why does she not take it to small claims, its cheap, you represent yourself and a lot is done over the phone. The person who has the horse will have to prove they have bought it from your friend. She may not get the horse back, but if they have to pay her they may give the horse back.
https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees

The person didn’t want the money, just the horse that had disappeared by that point. It was probably worth about £500 at most.
The police stated it was a civil matter and not a criminal one as the horse had been on loan.

 

[honetpot]

Why does she not take it to small claims, its cheap, you represent yourself and a lot is done over the phone. The person who has the horse will have to prove they have bought it from your friend. She may not get the horse back, but if they have to pay her they may give the horse back.
https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees

My friend has done it recently over a car, she got her money, all done over the phone.

 

[ycbm]

If you need to attend court (which you would if the other side dispute the claim) and they have a solicitor, it would be hard to win when it’s essentially one persons word against another’s. I’ve done a few claims through work and luckily nobody has disputed it so far, but if they did we would need to attend a hearing.

I've done it. I won. The small claims system is set up to help people who do not have enough money for a solicitor.

I wish more people understood how easy and low risk it is. They can't, for example, if they win, make you pay their costs for a solicitor.
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[honetpot]

The person didn’t want the money, just the horse that had disappeared by that point. It was probably worth about £500 at most.

Thats what's small claims is for. Another friend won a case against a vet for over charging fees. It was about £150, but it was the principle.

 

[teddypops]

You do not have to hand over a passport when loaning. You do have to be able to produce it within a set number of hours though, I think its 2.

The passport should be with the horse, whether it is on loan or not.

 

[Dexter]

Trading standards were very clear that you only needed to produce it within 2 hours, so either they are wrong or the website is.

Doesnt matter anyway, as the loaner should not have been able to have the horse passported. they needed to apply for a duplicate

 

[sport horse]

Many (most?) owners do not hand over the passport when loaning a horse, certainly for low value hackers / companions. It's seen as an insurance to prevent the loaner selling on.
If the loaner were to apply for a passport in their own name, that would be fraud and evidence of intent (theft).

The passport is supposed to be with the horse - even when travelling. If the loaner does not have the passport how do they update with any vaccinations. Too many people loaning horses without proper agreements and then run into trouble. If the paperwork is done correctly then it is relatively easy to prove ownership. If it is only a word of mouth agreement the problems can be greater. Be warned everyone to do things properly - there are plenty of laon agreements available - BHS web site has a smaple one to use so no excuse for anyone to be in this situation.

 

[AdorableAlice]

TS in the vast majority of areas are cut to the bare bones. I work alongside TS and there are 2 officers covering a County area of 1000 square miles The cases TS officers will take on will be assessed and decisions made whether to act or not, based on value to the public. All cases are paid for by the public purse so they have to consider if the work they do is of advantage to the public and protects the public.

An example in my area is an ongoing puppy and alcohol importation organised crime investigation involving multi residential addresses, cars carrying false plates and online advertising platforms using a multitude of names. This case concerns animal welfare, tax evasion, misleading and defrauding the public, unlawful importation and money laundering. When you compare the above to a request to investigate a horse without a passport it is obvious where the public funds and officer resource will be used.