Patrik Kittel responds to "Blue Tongue" Video

He's got no idea has he? What was shown on the video was enough, doesn't he realise that? That is frightening actually.
 
The comment that he only rode for a half a round with the tongue in that state is ridiculous. It's true that there would be a change in colour in that short a time, but the tissue would be a paler pink rather than blue.
 
I agree that editing may present the situation in a different light. However, it takes more than just a few seconds for a tongue to go blue from pressure. That is unless the pressure is huge, so cuts off circulation quickly. Either way the horse should not have to endure pressure such as this, let alone in its MOUTH!

I know the footage was slowed down but the horse had its tongue out for more than just a few seconds, as kittel suggests. Its also interesting that he doesnt deny the 90 minutes suggestion. Whilst riding a horse for 90 minutes is no great crime, it is if the horse is held in such an unatural position such as rollkur and if muscles go blue due to pressure. Wouldnt it be interesting if we could see the colour of the neck muscles under the hair?

Training muscle requires short, repetitive sessions. 90 minutes is far too long and actually detrimental to muscle tissue, even with walk breaks!
 
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QR - could anyone copy & paste it please as my computer keep crashing whenever I try to open the link!

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Here you go hun


Taken from Patrik Kittel interview

This morning I had the opportunity to speak with Patrik Kittel about the 4:26 video excerpt of his ride aboard 10 yr old Dutch stallion Watermill Scandic, at the World Cup dressage qualifier in Odense, Denmark.


When did you first hear about the video?
The person who took the video contacted me after the show and after she had posted it on line. She did not lodge a complaint against me at the show, nor did she confront me privately or at the press conference.


What was your reaction when you saw it?
My reaction was more about the text and the video put together, which basically present that I was riding my horse cruelly for 90 minutes, which is utterly not true.

I watched the slow motion, the editing, the decision to post only those few minutes of my ride and not my warm-up, or walk breaks, and how neatly the images supported the accompanying text – all presenting me as abusing my horse.

What was happening with the horse’s tongue?
Scandic got the tongue between the bits or over the bit, as horses occasional do. It took me about a half a round to notice it and then I corrected it. Of course the circulation to the tongue is compromised for those few seconds, but I corrected it the moment I saw it, as any other rider would do if their horse got his tongue over the bit. For the rest of the video, you can see that the mouth is completely closed and the horse is foaming.


Do you understand why people are so upset about the video?
With the way that the video and text are put together, I understand why people get upset. This video is a very brief clip taken totally out of context and the accompanying text is inflammatory and untrue.


How long did you ride Scantic for that session? The commentary says it was for a minimum of 90 minutes with virtually no breaks for the horse.
I didn’t time my ride, but rode as was needed on the particular day. ALL of my rides include a walk warm-up, a slow trot to warm up his muscles, long and low stretching and walk breaks. None of that was included in the video footage, nor mentioned in the accompanying text.


I love all my horses and Scandic has a special place my heart. He has an incredible personality and I would never ever try to break his spirit – it’s what makes him so special and such a great partner. I have educated him myself and he has always been there for me. I hope everyone will try to view my kur from Odense. You will see his spirit and his happiness to perform and you will understand our special bond.
 
Thankies!
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Arse.

That is all.

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Couldn't have put it better myself!
 
Absolute Rubbish


EPONA TV are credible journalists with a unblemished integrity - they have the full 120 mins on film with the tannoy system calling times of classes. PROOF MR KITTLE!

Patrik Kittel doesnt get that what we see is wrong he makes no excuse for rollkur - no excuse that the horse worked with dead eyes, with clear tense and learned helplessness signs.

the man is not only incompetent (cant ride without the bit) he is MAD!

He will be investigated and the footage will tell the truth, I hope he is penalised and as a result ALL rollkur in and out of the ring is OUTLAWED

ROLLKUR IS CRUEL AND ABUSIVE TO HORSES
 
I am in the minority here, but I think people are making their minds up too quickly on a very serious allegation that could have extreme repercussions for this rider's career.

If there is a 90 minute version of this training session, why is it not online? Doing this would immediately answer any disputes between the rider and the film-maker as to what happened.

If the tongue was indeed blue (it looks pink on the underneath to me), this can happen very quickly. I tied an elastic band on the last knuckle of my finger (kids don't do this at home) and it went blue in less than 2 minutes. I suspect the tongue may go blue even faster.

If this was a case of abuse why didn't the film-maker bring it to the attention of the stewards so it could be properly dealt with, the abuse stopped and the rider disciplined? Is the film-maker more interested in publisizing a campaign or in preventing cruelty to this horse?

There seem to be quite a few posts on Rollkur, started by new members who appear to have no interests in other posts...
 
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If this was a case of abuse why didn't the film-maker bring it to the attention of the stewards so it could be properly dealt with, the abuse stopped and the rider disciplined? Is the film-maker more interested in publisizing a campaign or in preventing cruelty to this horse?



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Sometimes you have to make an example for the benefit of others. Maybe this sort of thing is rife in Dressage and the film maker wants to publicise it? Without evidence people are less likely to listen. Nothing wrong with publicising a campaign, particularly if you have such good evidence.
 
If the horses tongue was OVER the bit surely that wouldn't have cut off the circulation and made it turn blue?? Yes it may have caused it to hang out of its mouth, but surely not stopped the blood flow?!!
 
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If the horses tongue was OVER the bit surely that wouldn't have cut off the circulation and made it turn blue?? Yes it may have caused it to hang out of its mouth, but surely not stopped the blood flow?!!

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Not if it was over the curb but under the bradoon - if it had the tongue trapped between the two bits then this is entirely possible I reckon.
 
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Sometimes you have to make an example for the benefit of others. Maybe this sort of thing is rife in Dressage and the film maker wants to publicise it? Without evidence people are less likely to listen. Nothing wrong with publicising a campaign, particularly if you have such good evidence.

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And bl**dy good on the camera man/woman for having the presence of mind to both record AND make others aware that this cr@p behaviour continues to happen.
And after watching that horses lifeless tongue lolling out his mouth the "rider" ought to be very grateful to him that he is so obviously of a forgiving nature, the pain must have been awful be it for a few minutes or the full ninety!
He can respond how he likes, its simply not acceptable.
 
I'm as yet undecided. I dislike the idea of Rollkur and the blue tongue does look awful, BUT I don't know exactly what I'm seeing- Is it Rollkur causing the tongue to go blue by interrupting circulation to the head as was suggested in another post? If so, how come horse doesn't faint? Someone held the Little Cigar a bit tight around the neck for a jab once and he deffo went a bit woozy. Did the horse get his tongue between the bits? There is a lot of speculation, lots of outrage and not enough hard fact for me to damn PK to hell for all eternity.
I DO know that the video, like so many cruelty vids is slowed down for effect and WILL make things look worse than they would in realtime...
Like I said, I dislike Rollkur, but also dislike sensationalist reporting.
 
I've followed these threads but haven't posted until now as I'm not really sure how to write what I want to say without having my meaning taken out of context.

The PK video clip was, let's face it. disgusting. However it is my opinion that the blue tongue shown in that clip was most likely as a direct result of getting the tongue trapped between bridoon and weymouth. Now the tongue evasion may or may not have been a direct result of the rollkur.

But we are looking at a 4 minute clip. I would be interested to see how that 4 minutes fits into this supposed 90 minute training session, because unless I see videographic evidence it doesn't sit completely comfortably with me to condemn the man without knowing the full facts.

That said in my book, if rollkur/hyperflexion, is to have any place in training (and I'm not saying it does btw!) then even holding it for 4 minutes is too long. Any sort of deep flexion should be a matter of seconds.

The use of rollkur (or as my trainer calls it - ramming your horses head up it's arse technique) in training is going to be a real difficult thing to stamp out, internet hate campaigns against specific riders I can't see being the way forward. Good solid scientific evidence needs to be obtained to support the hypothesis that this is animal cruelty and alongside this it is changes from within the governing bodies and judges that need to occur - as soon as less flashy but more correct horses start getting given better marks at the high levels than the flashy but incorrect horses then the riders will take note and adapt their training, but it will take a long time!
 
I am very on the fence about the whole thing. Patrik Kittel has always come across to me as a humble, hard-working rider who really really loves his animals - he has worked very hard to get to where he is now. I am not saying I agree with rollkur in its most extreme form, not at all, but to me, watching that video, it does not look like the horse's *spirit is broken*. To me - though I am no dressage expert - it looks like the horse is working nicely but with its poll to far behind the vertical - something which I don't think is always a crime. There have been far worse examples of rollkur demonstrated in the media in the past as far as I am concerned. The tongue is not an issue to me - these things happen. I disagree strongly with sensationalist reporting and imagery taken out of context.

Whizz_on_Ted - your crazed commentary may do the cause you are trying to fight a disservice rather than the other way around. Just a tip.
 
What a load of bollocks. Talk about trying to save his reputation. I'm sorry but I didn't like what I saw in that short video - I wouldn't let him near my horse that's for sure. Actually..... I would and if he rode her like that she would deck him within minutes. Twat.
 
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The tongue is not an issue to me - these things happen.

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Yes, they happen, but they shouldnt. These things happen due to things that people do to their horses. These things could be avoided. These things inflict discomfort/pain on horses. These things should be an issue in order to stop these things from happening to others.

These things do not have to happen, there are other ways to train horses that consider their welfare as a higher priority than personal gain.

The horse wasnt working nicely in my eyes. Quite the opposite, i was cringeing with his neck in that position. Quite apart from the tongue, which is a seperate issue.

My heart went out to that horse having to work like that:(
 
Frodo, I have been looking - and there has been absolutely nothing! Which really surprises me, as Sweden is usually on the ball when it comes to reporting on these things - rollkur is NOT popular amongst the crowds there either. I am not sure if the said FEI investigation has put a ban on things? Patrik Kittel is not really a household name in Sweden though, despite being on the national team - he has pretty much always trained abroad, so I guess the general horsey public don't have very strong feelings about him.
 
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The tongue is not an issue to me - these things happen

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Wow, I don't know how to begin responding to that......
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Hi ALL

EPONA TV have taken 120 mins of footage they have tannoy announcements throughout of the classes being called and the times.

Kittel did not work in canter hyperflexion for 100% but for the MAJORITY of the time he never worked in release.

GO to EPONA TV and check the FAQ on this matter - dont believe me either!!

EPONA asked the stewards who said they had received a complaint - EPONA really did not know until they got back the strenght of what they had on film - nor that this would cause global outrage...!!

pls remember journalists are observers = that is protocol not participators.

Why on earth would they post 90 mins come on guys! who is going to sit watching that sicko for 90 mins bad enough 4mins.

EPONA TV are extremely respected, professional and credible journalists working within an environment not disimilar to a mafia like hold of money, corruption, jealous and violence power in the european competitive horse world. What they do is what should have been done a long time ago by men - but no one had the guts to do it.

or you can believe bleating baby Kittel caught red handed mistreating his horse for the world to see....

who do you believe now?

BTW Barnmice have not confirmed the story with EPONA - naughty!! and KitteL DID know about the video in ADVANCE of it being posted on you tube AND That a video was in existence . all facts and on EPONA website..

now who is lying Mr Kittel?
 
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The tongue is not an issue to me - these things happen

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Wow, I don't know how to begin responding to that......
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Me either.....at least not in a way that wont get me banned
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You don't have to respond - it is my opinion - horses get their tongues above/in between the bit sometimes! I am NOT a rollkur supporter, I just think this particular instance has been blown out of proportion and taken out of context - in my opinion, there have been many many more horrible examples of rollkur made public in the recent years.
 
I'm glad he replied. I'm not convinced by his reply but think its thrown interesting doubt on what we saw.

I'm another who thought the tongue looked like it was over the bit: between two would make more sense. I'm a bit pertubed if this was the case why he didn't get off/get someone on the ground to check that it was back where it should be, and also that he didn't notice the different feel of a tongue over/between bits for even half a lap? Thats a long time for a very different feel down the reins: I'm pretty sure I would have felt it, and I'm no dressage superstar! Come on, most of us know when the horse is mouthing the bit, know when a tongue has gone over, and when the horse has done something a bti silly with his mouth (pinching a bit of flesh in a loose ring for example). It doesn't wash with me that the rider didn't know his horse's tongue was over the bit.

I also think this man is very misguided if he thinks he's training the horse without "breaking" his spirit.
 
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Comment by johanna macarthur 1 hour ago I know this statement by Kittel is not true - EPONA TV have 120 mins of footage which includes the Odense tannoy system calling classes and the times - Kittel worked his horse mainly in rolkur for the majority of the time without release.

Epona tv warned Kittel they were recording his telephone interview - he knew this.

Journalist are observers - not participators?!! this is mainly why they did not raise a complaint and in any case they were told by the head steward that they had received a complaint about kittel and Epona thought that action would have been taken on the day.

who do I believe ? - Epona TV of course!



Kittel just doesnt understand does he - we dont want or like rollkur and we will stop riders usingit!

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Hello old friend!
Found something more sensable then proper use of the whip to go after I see?
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I'm staying on the fence for a while.
Gut wants him strung up,head says it's a 4 minute video,plenty of which is slow motion.If Epona have the full 90 mins release it.
Highlyedited clips like that video dont really do anything to prove a point but DO get emotions up.

I am assuming a well known company wouldnt risk their reputation for nothing so they at the very least think they saw what they say they did-but if they want the horse world to condemn it then put the footage out there.
 
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