Pedigree pups not KC registere

Why oh why would you buy a 'pedigree' dog without the paperwork to back it up. If it isn't KC registered, is it actually a mongrel??? KC pedigree doesn't ensure good health, BUT, it hopefully means the bitch wasn't mated before she was old enough, and wasn't bred from every season. A puppy farmer used to tell prospective owners that she didn't have the appropriate pedigree papers, because in her opinion, the pups weren't good enough to show, so she didn't want to spend money getting them registered. Bull...t and yet people fell for it...you don't have to get a pedigree, there are plenty of healthy mongrels out there, and whatever you buy, ask to see ALL the relevant healthcecks carried out!!!!
 
Elsiecat said:
We plan to eventually breed one of my dogs.
She isn't KC registered. She is a pedigree.
She is from a breeder who does all the relevant testing. Her parents are lovely.
My dog will have all the relevant tests and will be bred to a stud with the relevant tests.
2 family friends have already said they want a puppy when the time comes round to it. They know the bitch, her temperament, her health, where she's been breed.

IMO KC reg. means very little these days.
My brother recently got a puppy that was KC registered. He got it home to find it was riddled with fleas and worms. They've reported them to the RSPCA who have been round to the breeders.

Unless you want a dog for showing then temperament, health and parents are much more important than a piece of paper that in this day and age proves very little.
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And is your breeder aware that you are breeding your bitch?? Not to be rude but if she is a pedigree then she should have one, that pedigree could be very important for an example you could put your bitch to a particular line and get a blind litter, liver shunt, intersex (and NO its not self limiting!), HD, blood disorders the list goes on. If you don't know your lines you shouldn't be breeding. If you never got one go back to the breeder and ask them to register your bitch or contact the KC and ask for information on registering your bitch on the Activity Register at least then the pups can be registered and have a traceable history.

Your brother should not just have told the RSPCA he should have contacted the Kennel Club because they can do something about it if people write to them even if it is just to send a letter to ask for their version of events, repeat offenders especially those on the ABS can lose their status or affix if it is serious enough.
 
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MurphysMinder said:
I agree re health testing being more important than KC reg, but in reality I think it is very unlikely that people will bother to health test dogs but not register them. I would always be wary of dogs with pedigrees but no KC reg for the reasons stated above, mated too young, old, often etc. Another one to watch out is when the parents are KC reg but the pups aren't, more than likely means the breeders of the parents had applied endorsements that they weren't to be bred from.
It is also very easy to make up pedigrees, all you need to do is get a blank pedigree form and stick a few names on. Years ago some came to see our stud dog with a view to using him, and as usual we requested they bring her papers. It turned out that not only was the bitch not registered, but her mother was supposedly a daughter of our stud dog.:eek: As we knew full well he had not been used on this particular bitch we explained to them that they had been sold a "pup" and advised them not to breed from her as heaven knows what her breeding was.
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These days a very simple and quick phone call the to KC will prove or disprove a pedigree. Lots of the breeds are also doing global databases so that pedigrees and health info can be checked. Anyone in a particular breed will know their own breed I know I know mine inside and out.

There is a few sites that worry me considerably for an example we have recently had two cases where litters were advertised for sale with a mix of photos from one breeders litter, stud information and write up from another (idiots actually used US dogs that have never produced stock in the UK) and a pedigree that didn't match either of the dogs in the write up - needless to say we now look for these idiots and report them. The second was a popular stud dog and a litter write up taken straight off champdogs. These litters were for sale at average prices of £850 per puppy and buyers from experience will go see puppies and be told their KC registration will be in the post or they can have it a bit cheaper minus registration. DON'T DO IT ITS FRAUD!!!! You are not getting what you are paying for!!! And the sad thing is a % of these dogs are stolen or have been passed around and bred on every season! :(:(

If you are in doubt find a specialist in that breed, contact the clubs and ASK them they will bend over backwards to help you.

Why pay all that money not to get a proper pedigree dog.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
As you say, breeders know their breed and the lines therein, but people who buy non KC reg pups aren't likely to bother checking with reputable breeders. I'm not a fan of the KC but they are trying (though not hard enough imo) to get breeders to health tests, and to encourage the general public to buy from reputable breeders, but the likes of Jemima Harrison and the RSPCA with their anti pedigree dog rants are not helping the cause.:mad:
 
on the other side of the fence. I very much look forward to the day I can research and buy a properly bred puppy with all the correct checks etc, not necessarily show standard but for all the reasons stated above.

But "my" breed is the staffordshire bull terrier so think it will be many many years before I can have that option.
 
Luci07 said:
on the other side of the fence. I very much look forward to the day I can research and buy a properly bred puppy with all the correct checks etc, not necessarily show standard but for all the reasons stated above.

But "my" breed is the staffordshire bull terrier so think it will be many many years before I can have that option.
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Totally agree, I researched my breed by talking to people, reading books, finding out information. How on earth did people did people find out before the information super highway? They did it this way. They found out facts for themselves.

If its kc registered you want to see mum and dad.
 
Just a note to your post Kaylum, a lot of good breeders won't have the sire of the pups there, they like to use different dogs to improve their lines. My Evie was conceived in Germany so it would have meant quite a journey to see her dad.:p However, you certainly should be given loads of information about the sire, see health test results etc and many stud dog owners are happy for people to go and visit, but it sometimes isn't possible, doesn't mean you should avoid the breeder, it quite likely means they are better than the ones who have both parents to view.
 
I have a friend who repeatedly talks about breeding with his registered, very well bred but asthmatic whippet that lives on steroids.

Can you give me some pointers how to dissuade him? Or am I wrong thinking that the dog should not breed, however lovely its temperament and conformation?
 
MurphysMinder said:
Just a note to your post Kaylum, a lot of good breeders won't have the sire of the pups there, they like to use different dogs to improve their lines. My Evie was conceived in Germany so it would have meant quite a journey to see her dad.:p However, you certainly should be given loads of information about the sire, see health test results etc and many stud dog owners are happy for people to go and visit, but it sometimes isn't possible, doesn't mean you should avoid the breeder, it quite likely means they are better than the ones who have both parents to view.
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I know you still need to see the dad even just pictures, I am afraid so many disregard the father and don't particularly care but this is where a lot of damage is done. They don't research it properly find out if the stud dog is there for a reason of just cause its a nice dog. Especially when people are new to a breed. It's a shock when they find out they let their stud dog mate with any example of the breed.
 
*I haven't read all posts so sorry if someone has already posted something similar.


PLEASE PLEASE BUY KC REG'D PUPPIES.

I rescued a ex-breeding chihuahua direct from her breeder. She was in an awful state; very underweight, filthy, only had a couple teeth and they were black and a huge ceasearan (sp?) scar.

I immediately took her to the vets and they were horrified. She's had way too many litters and at barely 5 she is more like a very elderly dog. She couldn't walk as shed been caged all her life so its taken a good year for her to start being more like the dog she should be. But still she has no idea what playing is :-(

I found an old advert for one of her litters and she had 3 girls up for £1,500 each :-O

They were advertised as 'pedigree' which they were but at least knowing the pups are KC reg'd means the mum hasn't had too many litters.
 
Luci07 said:
on the other side of the fence. I very much look forward to the day I can research and buy a properly bred puppy with all the correct checks etc, not necessarily show standard but for all the reasons stated above.

But "my" breed is the staffordshire bull terrier so think it will be many many years before I can have that option.
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You know little things make a big difference and buyer power is the best tool. If more people made an effort to seek out good breeders and if breeders upped their game things would be so much better all. If people can't sell the puppies they are breeding if they don't do the health tests or registration of one form or another then the breed would be much better off. A half decent load of publicity would help. Lovely dogs tragic what is happening to them :(
 
I'd be interested to hear views on these currently fashionable cross breeds where both parents are KC registered but obviously the pup won't be.

Would it only matter if the pup would then be used for breeding?

What defines a back yard breeder?

*I do not breed dogs, I do not even own a dog. But I am thinking about getting a dog in the future (maybe a couple of years when the children are older) so I am looking into different breeds to see which would suit us best. I have no intention of breeding, the dog would be 'just' a pet.

**neither am I interested in a dog as a fashion statement. I've gone from poodles to puggles (pug x beagle) to greyhounds and almost everything in between!
 
Dobiegirl said:
So many people think like this, have no interest in showing or breeding and just want a pet. BYBs rely on this, yes they may well have the mum or a dog purporting to be mum(I have seen this) and have a nice home but breed their dog every time. As others have said although KC reg is no guarantee on health at the very least you know the bitch isnt over bred. bred too young or too old.

If it isnt KC reg I wouldnt be interested in buying a pup but the parents would have to have the relevant health tests as well. Checking out a lot of pups for sale ads, price is no reflection either of quality, Labradoodles for example are well in excess of a lot of KC reg health tested Labradors and Poodles.
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I have never ever bought a dog from an advert I simply can't imagine why someone would need to do such a thing.
I buy my dogs from friends so the bitch will not be purposting to be mum it will be mum .
All my dogs are from hip scored etc parents if there owners are disinterested in being involved with the KC why should they be.
ATM I have my eye on a great dog who belongs to a member of the shoot on my OH's BF's farm he's had two litters he's strong sound has a super nature ,I am pretty sure he will be the father of my next pup.
That's how I like to choose.
He is KC reg but it's totally unimportant to me.
 
Goldenstar said:
I have never ever bought a dog from an advert I simply can't imagine why someone would need to do such a thing.
I buy my dogs from friends so the bitch will not be purposting to be mum it will be mum .
All my dogs are from hip scored etc parents if there owners are disinterested in being involved with the KC why should they be.
ATM I have my eye on a great dog who belongs to a member of the shoot on my OH's BF's farm he's had two litters he's strong sound has a super nature ,I am pretty sure he will be the father of my next pup.
That's how I like to choose.
He is KC reg but it's totally unimportant to me.
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Is this dog fully health tested? Were his parents? Are there any recessive genes lurking in his genotype that he may not show but his pups could?
This is why proper documentation is important. Registration is just that; a registration of the parentage and, often forgotten, relatives and thus good or bad traits can be traced. If you choose not to transfer a registered pup to your name then that is your choice but it should be registered by the breeder.
 
Something that does surprise me is how many owners do not transfer the dog into their own name. Some years back I got a print out from the KC of all the dogs I had bred over the years, I would say around 80% were still in my name. I often wondered what the legal implications would be if I had wanted to reclaim the dogs for any reason.
 
MurphysMinder said:
Something that does surprise me is how many owners do not transfer the dog into their own name. Some years back I got a print out from the KC of all the dogs I had bred over the years, I would say around 80% were still in my name. I often wondered what the legal implications would be if I had wanted to reclaim the dogs for any reason.
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I think this may be something to do with how the KC fees are listed on the transfer form. The transfer is now £15 but the suggestion is made to add a printed pedigree £8 to £23 & Breed Record Supplement £8 which bumps up the perceived price and puts it on the back burner.

The KC puppy insurance is one reason to transfer but most breeders do Pet Plan anyway.
 
s4sugar said:
Is this dog fully health tested? Were his parents? Are there any recessive genes lurking in his genotype that he may not show but his pups could?
This is why proper documentation is important. Registration is just that; a registration of the parentage and, often forgotten, relatives and thus good or bad traits can be traced. If you choose not to transfer a registered pup to your name then that is your choice but it should be registered by the breeder.
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He is fully health tested , but it's unimportant to me if he has papers the KC has presided over an explosion of dogs bred to have silly unhealthily characteristics I simply will not enage with them in any way .
People posting things like the the bitch you see may not be the mother !! Where do you think I go to buy to dogs out of the back of a tinkers van .
You may think papers protect you I know better than that your best protection is to buy the puppy's of working dogs that you know and have known for some time no amount of looking at bits of paper beats buying the offspring of dogs from families you have seen working sometimes for years.
I am only looking for a pup from a new line as the yellow has died out of the line we bought from for more than the last decade.
 
:[People posting things like the the bitch you see may not be the mother !! Where do you think I go to buy to dogs out of the back of a tinkers van .

The pups that I went to see was at a private house and we were introduced to the mother, I knew full well it wasnt the mother but Im sure a lot of people would have thought it was. Why I posted was for people to see what lengths scammers go to , you have obviously taken umbrage at my comment but it wasnt aimed at you and Im sure most people wouldnt buy out the back of a tinkers van either:D. These were to my eye very obviously bought in from a puppy farm or a BYB, I went with my daughters boyfriend who had seen them advertised and wanted to see them. If I hadnt had been there he would have bought one:eek:puppies do that to people they make their brains go to mush.:(
 
Dobiegirl is right I've been to homes where the puppies were supposed to belong to one bitch but she was spayed. These were supposed to be reputable breeders.

Just because they live in a nice house with 'pet' dogs does not make them responsible or not fraudulent.

If you are going to pay all that money for a dog, why wouldn't you want the pedigree??? And a good breeder would want their progeny registered anyone that doesn't isn't doing it for the right reasons and to say a working dog is a good enough excuse isn't, its a poor cop out!
 
Goldenstar, your choice of breed is obviously available to you through friends and associates with the same breed. If your happy with the health of pup, parents have been tested for breed related problems and you are in possession of health status of relatives further back, then good. I can see registration is not necessary to you.
However, most people do not have an abundance of their chosen breed belonging to friends, neither are they often aware of the checks that should be made. They don't need to buy from the back of a tinkers van to be conned.
Sadly, I feel it's very irresponsible of you to encourage people in the notion that KC reg is unnecessary nonsense. IF you are informed enough to trust your breeders and your knowledge, fair enough.
But I'm afraid your attitude is at least partly responsible for the state of the little chihuahua that JHC and the Italian greyhound that I rescued from vile money grabbing breeders.
You are clearly talking about working dogs. Possibly easier to obtain within your community. But please stop bad mouthing registration, if nothing else it tries to reduce the number of poor bitches being over bred to the point of death.
Also I do know of one farmer with a springer bitch from very good working lines, who has bred her twice a year for the last 3 years and has a waiting list for puppies. They are not wormed, flead or have even the most basic vet check. They sell like hot cakes because of her bloodlines and the stud dogs working ability. The buyers don't need useless KC papers. NO, BUT THAT POOR BITCH NEEDS THE PROTECTION OF THEM.
I'm sorry, but your attitude is responsible for much suffering.
 
I will also add that I am a little reassured that of all the replies to this thread you seem to be the only one not interested in the protection KC registration offers.
Unfortunately in real life I'm guessing there are many who don't understand the implications of paying high prices for unreg pups and adding to the breeding misery. I think if general public were aware of the facts the problem may be hugely reduced. I'm sure people like yourself, who know the facts but still support uncontrolled breeding is actualy a minority.
An information campaign is needed I think.
 
amymay said:
Why not just simply go to a rescue........
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Because for a working dog you want a clean slate... recovering bad habits that may have been the reason the dog was binned in the first place is no easy feat and most people don't have the capability to do it but can train a puppy or buy in a fully trained dog.

Working gundogs are often especially the spaniels sold on minus pedigrees because blah blah has seen the dogs working on blah blahs shoot but the reality is that it may well work but thats down to training as well as breeding but it is not necessarily healthy, that is something I have as a bug bare old fashioned views on a dogs ability being the only thing of importance and a refusal to do the basic of health tests because its a worked dog so couldn't possibly be or produce ill pups. Its a total nonsense.
 
amymay said:
Why not just simply go to a rescue........
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I do encourage and support rescue when someone is looking for a pet and nothing else, but like it or not, some people do want to show, breed or work their dogs.
I think it is highly unethical to breed from a rescue. It is highly unlikely you will get the papers to show a rescue. And whilst obviously rescues can compete and work in some sports, I would challenge you to find me a dog with the genetics and health background it would need to compete in the sport I want to compete in, from a rescue.

Is your Bichon a rescue?

But yes I do agree, if you are looking for a pet and are not bothered about KC registration - go to rescue - it's much cheaper apart from anything else and you won't be rewarding a dodgy breeder with your cash, quite the opposite in fact!
 
Oh lord, I wasn't inferring you should breed from a rescue.

And no, our Bichon is not a rescue - but she was part of the 'family' before I came along, so had no say in that.
 
amymay said:
Oh lord, I wasn't inferring you should breed from a rescue.

And no, our Bichon is not a rescue - but she was part of the 'family' before I came along, so had no say in that.
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Yes I know you weren't inferring that, but just saying, a rescue doesn't fit the bill for absolutely everyone, for instance, those who want to show, breed or work their dogs in certain disciplines.
 
ribbons said:
Goldenstar, your choice of breed is obviously available to you through friends and associates with the same breed. If your happy with the health of pup, parents have been tested for breed related problems and you are in possession of health status of relatives further back, then good. I can see registration is not necessary to you.
However, most people do not have an abundance of their chosen breed belonging to friends, neither are they often aware of the checks that should be made. They don't need to buy from the back of a tinkers van to be conned.
Sadly, I feel it's very irresponsible of you to encourage people in the notion that KC reg is unnecessary nonsense. IF you are informed enough to trust your breeders and your knowledge, fair enough.
But I'm afraid your attitude is at least partly responsible for the state of the little chihuahua that JHC and the Italian greyhound that I rescued from vile money grabbing breeders.
You are clearly talking about working dogs. Possibly easier to obtain within your community. But please stop bad mouthing registration, if nothing else it tries to reduce the number of poor bitches being over bred to the point of death.
Also I do know of one farmer with a springer bitch from very good working lines, who has bred her twice a year for the last 3 years and has a waiting list for puppies. They are not wormed, flead or have even the most basic vet check. They sell like hot cakes because of her bloodlines and the stud dogs working ability. The buyers don't need useless KC papers. NO, BUT THAT POOR BITCH NEEDS THE PROTECTION OF THEM.
I'm sorry, but your attitude is responsible for much suffering.
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Good post.
 
ribbons said:
Goldenstar, your choice of breed is obviously available to you through friends and associates with the same breed. If your happy with the health of pup, parents have been tested for breed related problems and you are in possession of health status of relatives further back, then good. I can see registration is not necessary to you.
However, most people do not have an abundance of their chosen breed belonging to friends, neither are they often aware of the checks that should be made. They don't need to buy from the back of a tinkers van to be conned.
Sadly, I feel it's very irresponsible of you to encourage people in the notion that KC reg is unnecessary nonsense. IF you are informed enough to trust your breeders and your knowledge, fair enough.
But I'm afraid your attitude is at least partly responsible for the state of the little chihuahua that JHC and the Italian greyhound that I rescued from vile money grabbing breeders.
You are clearly talking about working dogs. Possibly easier to obtain within your community. But please stop bad mouthing registration, if nothing else it tries to reduce the number of poor bitches being over bred to the point of death.
Also I do know of one farmer with a springer bitch from very good working lines, who has bred her twice a year for the last 3 years and has a waiting list for puppies. They are not wormed, flead or have even the most basic vet check. They sell like hot cakes because of her bloodlines and the stud dogs working ability. The buyers don't need useless KC papers. NO, BUT THAT POOR BITCH NEEDS THE PROTECTION OF THEM.
I'm sorry, but your attitude is responsible for much suffering.
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My post was my view , which I am allowed on an open forum to post I have not said anything to encourage others to do anything .
I look at the showing classes at crufts on the telly and want nothing to do with anything in that world .
I am not responsible for the suffering of the dogs you rescued the people who bred them are NOT ME .
I am not bad mouthing registration I am giving my opinion that to me it's unimportant .
I have never bought from a breeder only from family homes thats what I do to say I responsible for suffering is way over the top and very very rude you don't know me or anything about me th
If I want a family dog I want to buy from a family home similar to my own and not some KC breeder who is interested in making a living .
 
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