People who lie when selling horses

I know exactly what you mean ff, I've been looking for months and put a deposit on one yesterday, only for the seller to "remember" today (after i asked her to disclose his veterinary history) that he has previously tied up! :(

I'm getting totally fed up and thinking Ireland is the way to go. Make it a nice horsey holiday!
 
cookster1975 said:
I know exactly what you mean ff, I've been looking for months and put a deposit on one yesterday, only for the seller to "remember" today (after i asked her to disclose his veterinary history) that he has previously tied up! :(

I'm getting totally fed up and thinking Ireland is the way to go. Make it a nice horsey holiday!
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Is that such an issue I would not remember unless asked . If a horse had tied up once I would still buy it in fact I have one .
What makes you think Ireland is any different ?
 
Goldenstar said:
Is that such an issue I would not remember unless asked . If a horse had tied up once I would still buy it in fact I have one .
What makes you think Ireland is any different ?[

I have seen horses tie up, it's not something I would forget. If a horse ties up once, its highly likely it will happen again and I don't want to buy a horse that could potentially have an ongoing metabolic problem.

I think there are more of the type of horse I'm looking for in Ireland and not at ridiculous prices because they're Irish and have hunted and been x country schooling! ;)
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cookster1975 said:
Goldenstar said:
Is that such an issue I would not remember unless asked . If a horse had tied up once I would still buy it in fact I have one .
What makes you think Ireland is any different ?[

I have seen horses tie up, it's not something I would forget. If a horse ties up once, its highly likely it will happen again and I don't want to buy a horse that could potentially have an ongoing metabolic problem.

I think there are more of the type of horse I'm looking for in Ireland and not at ridiculous prices because they're Irish and have hunted and been x country schooling! ;)
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If the worse thing you see happen to a horse is a bout of azoturia you will be very very lucky .
In Ireland it's exactly the same as here .
Sound horses that trot up lame .
Hunted horses so green that they can't trot up the round on their own and yes they will have been hunting unfortunatly some of them have been doing it at three years old with all the consequences that brings.
And yes some of them will have had azoturia .
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Yes goldenstar believe it or not I'm well aware that horses hunt in Ireland at 3 yrs old. What I'm saying is - people stick £2k on the price over here BECAUSE it's hunted in Ireland, when in Ireland it's the norm. Why not go to Ireland yourself and cut out the middle man?

I have owned horses since I was 11 years old (won't divulge my age now) and have seen many things I'd rather not. I don't really see why I should justify why I would not knowingly buy a horse with potential metabolic problems when I could buy one without? I'm not desparate just yet.
 
we started off by going to a dealer - where i got Fabio from - and unfortunately out of 4 horses we went to view only ended up trying one. He was billed as a good allrounder - anyones ride. Safe for a novice but would kick it up a gear for more experienced rider. Had hunted, XC and SJ. Needed some schooling work but not an issue. Took him over a jump in the middle of their indoor school, ok - but the school was fairly small and tight to turm for the jump. So they moved the jump to the side of the school. He was very looky when they moved it - took him round and he ran out! He did go over the 2nd time but if he run out just at a jump being positioned differently (was nothing taxing either!) then what would he be like with fillers? XC? (My OH hasn't done XC for a number of years so needs to know the horse will be confident when he starts again.) He was apparently non spooky but was also very looky all the way round the walk from the yard to the indoor school. This was another £4.5k horse!

I have no issue going to a dealer at all - its just knowing what ones are reputable.

I'm being fairly broad in my search, looking at prices from £1500 - £6000, age 4 - 12, I think our budget is reasonable considering the market is supposedly awash with good horses people want to sell. It might be a buyers market but i'm still struggling to find a horse that fits the bill!
 
Pearlsasinger said:
IMO an experienced person would have spotted the lameness and not bothered with a vetting.
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I don't know what you call experienced but I see plenty of people who I'd call experienced riding around on (mainly bi-laterally) lame horses, and I've been round horses twenty-five years and I'm the first to admit I'm useless at judging hind-leg lameness, especially in horses I don't know.

I stand to be corrected but I expect there are plenty of experienced horse people about who've had horses fail vettings for subtle lameness they didn't spot, and bought horses with subtle lameness the vet didn't spot!
 
Goldenstar said:
Is that such an issue I would not remember unless asked . If a horse had tied up once I would still buy it in fact I have one .
What makes you think Ireland is any different ?
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Absabloodylutely! Tying up is caused by overdoing grub in relation to exercise..not the horse`s fault. My fault when my own mare aged ten did this..and it NEVER happened again .because I learnt by it.
 
Cookster dont think ireland will be full of straight as a die horses and people, it wont, been there done that, yes you could well pick up a nice hunting horse cheaper than here but dont forget you have to add costs of transporting and also vetting over there and their vets are not so fussy as most of our vets. Horses are big business in ireland and looked at as stock to be sold.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
IMO an experienced person would have spotted the lameness and not bothered with a vetting.
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Maybe....... but could also have only come to light on vetting after flexion test.

ps - I know several really experienced horse folk who are by their own admission hopeless at spotting lameness unless the horse is on three legs!!
 
when i was upgrading from pony to horse. I had a good few mishaps.

first of all I was given a contact for a lady who may have something suitable.
I told her, due to it being my first horse, that i did not want a TB or arab. i asked her all my questions froma long list and everything seemed well, so i went to go and see this horse.

I turned up to find a fine boned chestnut tb mare, but rather than wasting my time in going and not getting on I though i may aswell give it ago as the horse had a kind eye and had a nice nature in the stable. well... i ended up being dumped onto a metal gate!

Then i went to a dealer who i had spoken to previously and she had gone and got me a horse she thought was perfect for me. again i had clearly said not a tb or arab and turned up to find a 16.2 tb with racing stamps on its passport. she still tried to tell me it was not a tb, but again even after the total loss of confidence from the last tb i still got on the horse. The horse was lovely, but my mum thought there was something dodgy so we went onto the racing post and found that the horse had stopped racing due to injury, so we decided not to get it. a few months later i heard the same horse had not yet been sold and was having lameness issues. she was advised by a vet to have the horse put to sleep. she then told the vet that she would not put the horse to sleep and instead she would dope it and sell it on! I believe this did not happen, but when she threatened to shoot it i think someone took pity and bought him.

I then went to try out a lovely looking 15.2 chocolate dun tbx con and after the first ride i fell inlove with him, but mum always made me try twice before agreeing to anything. which was so lucky! the owner and my mum came out for a walk with me so i could take it on a hack by itself. It took off with me and did not stop till it ran out of steam (luckily this time i had steering, so ran it in circles until it ran out of steam), but then walking down a path at the side of some stairs it then took off again and chose to take the stairs instead of the path and then ran into a barbed wire fence before turning 180 and running in to another barbed wire fence!

the list off scary try outs continued before i got a lovely 15.3 idxtb black mare. she was an excellent first horse, but unfotunetly i got her due to someone elses misfortune (her seller was selling due to having cancer). We got on really well and lots of horse owners who were cynical about the perfect horse were biting there lips. she would jump the moon and do anything i asked of her, so was a steal at £2000. Unfortunetly after 6 weeks i lost my lovely girl after a horrible kick in the field, but just goes to prove that there are some good horses out there.

hope you find your husbands perfect match soon!
 
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Holbert said:
I still think that horses from dealers must be dodgy though because why would an owner want to sell their horse through a dealer, unless it had frightened them to death and they wanted nothing more to do with it? Surely a dealer will just take a cut of the sellers money and mean the owner loses control over where and who their horse ends up with?
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Ive sent a horse to my local dealer before simply because I don't have a school or the facilities to show a competition horse off. In addition to this, I work full time and its very hard to fit viewings in when your not at home during the day. I was selling the horse because it was never going to be brave enough to event to a high level and was much more suited to a sj home.

My local lady is also a instructor and she will allow you to chat to the purchasers/meet them if you want or will do everything for you if easier. Its not in her interest to sell horses to the people who don't suit them - most decent dealers take this view!
 
Well my "perfect gentleman in all respects, suitable for novice riders, taught beginners, safe and sensible real confidence giver" etc etc, still got the original ad, has been a nightmare from Day 1 basically. I am not a novice rider just wanted a quiet life, but hard to catch, spooky, nappy,etc. only plus point is he loads beautifully so when I want to send him to the meat man easy peasy!
 
FabioandFreddy said:
It might be a buyers market but i'm still struggling to find a horse that fits the bill!
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Me too!

My budget isn't as big as yours- but I am only looking for a happy hacker with enough ability to continue to have lessons on, pop a log and maybe jump a 2ft cross pole! My only 'stipulations' are that it's neither too young or too old, isn't bigger than 16hh and doesn't buck, bolt, or rear as a habit (have broken my back twice, don't want a habitual bucker/bolter/rearer to up the odds of doing it again!!)

So far the 'highlights' of my search have been a 'slightly overweight' mare, who was bagged up and about to drop, a 'fit, sound, pass any vet' gelding who was hopping lame, and one I truly fell in love with, who turned out to be lame under very light flexion and had something very odd going on with it's passport....

It's reassuring to know that I'm not the only buyer out here struggling to find something suitable... and that I'm not the only buyer who has been blatantly lied to!

Good luck with your search :-)
 
I bought the first horse I saw. I was lied to as they told me they were selling as their daughter wanted to do side saddle and he wasn't the stamp for showing in side saddle, which i suppose as a cob he wasn't. They negated to tell me that they thought he was a rig. I found out about him through a friend and they didnt tell her either, until i moved him to her yard. She then insisted that i get him blood tested to see if she was. I think she felt a bit of a numpty. He was fab fab fab though although a bit of a handful when I bought him. I had him vetted and the only thing the vet thought wirth noting was that he dragged the owner down the street.

When I sold him 5 years ago I was brutily honest in my add and on the phone and I sold him to the first people who came to see him. I turned a number of people down over the phone for a viewing as I could tell they weren't right for him. Hes very happy with his new home and has a home for life. They had been looking for months and i think the fact that I had told them the truth was obvious.
 
we had a good few laughs selling my old pony too.

we clearly stated on every add that she was not suitable for a novice and would be an excellent second pony, who would build a good relationship with an experienced and confident child.

we had so many people ring up asking if she was suitable for children that had never previously ridden and who's parents had no experience with horses or ponies either! :mad: we also had a drunken phone call!

picky is good!
 
I think a 16.2hh allrounder that is good to hack, in the age range and price range you have stated is going to be impossible - you have basically described the horse that everyone is looking for.

You either accept a few issues (btw I ouldnt call looking at things being spooky) or you increase your budget because a horse like that could sell 10 times over.

And I agree; you can tell a novice by the questions that they ask or don't ask. I am a complete nightmare as I think every horse is lame and I am horrendous for checking backs. The thing is, if you have such a paragon of virtue why on earth would you sell it? It is so ruddy hard to find a decent horse that when you do finally find one and you manage to keep it sound you do everything you can not to have to sell it!
 
I bought a horse from someone who said she was totally suitable for a novice. ( my children and grandchildren ).
Only had her over a week and knew she had more than settling issues, I am well aware of settling in periods, and even after a few weeks she was the same, great to hack out with others walk and trot only, she bites not nips when doing girth up gently, now that is an issue for me I said no to a lady who was decent enough to tell me her horse bites a few days before I bought this mare. I had even mentioned this to seller.
Did get a very experienced rider to try her ( lady who owned yard ) a few times and she did have issues, turned out she fell for her so I sold her, I see her everyday and her old owners were tracked down and they came to visit, they said should never have been sold suitable for novice as she does not canter ( same now) she stops dead and rider falls off, has done this for years, working on that issue. I now have a lovely older mare we bonded instantly she is everything they said, settled with us on day one.
 
I think a 16.2hh allrounder that is good to hack, in the age range and price range you have stated is going to be impossible - you have basically described the horse that everyone is looking for.

You either accept a few issues (btw I ouldnt call looking at things being spooky) or you increase your budget because a horse like that could sell 10 times over.
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Is it? I have one who is for sale for a very genuine reason, it has been a heart wrenching decision to make and due to something way out of my control yet i am struglling. I do have someone who sounds ideal supposedly coming on Sunday, they have contacted me via a friend yesterday who recommended mine, but i don't hold out much hope to be honest! People tend to want something that isn't really out there, even if you pay big money. I think i must be an ideal purchaser, i know what i want and i don't need to try it a hundred times, bring along every one i can think of to see it and have the poor thing put under a microscope for every minor detail. As long as it fits the bill i am looking for i will buy it and that is how i have bought all of mine over the past 30 years! I appreciate it is a big decision but i am convinced that some people actually talk themselves out of buying a hosre they initially thought was ideal by getting to much input.
 
CBAnglo said:
I think a 16.2hh allrounder that is good to hack, in the age range and price range you have stated is going to be impossible - you have basically described the horse that everyone is looking for.

You either accept a few issues (btw I ouldnt call looking at things being spooky) or you increase your budget because a horse like that could sell 10 times over.

And I agree; you can tell a novice by the questions that they ask or don't ask. I am a complete nightmare as I think every horse is lame and I am horrendous for checking backs. The thing is, if you have such a paragon of virtue why on earth would you sell it? It is so ruddy hard to find a decent horse that when you do finally find one and you manage to keep it sound you do everything you can not to have to sell it!
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See i'm not expecting a perfect horse with no issues whatsoever. A bit looky if not spooking at everything in sight is fine (having had a horse that would spook at a blade of gress laying the wrong way a bit looky is not an issue!), i'm quite prepared to put work into schooling if the basics are there (OH will school but not a fan so i pick up a lot of that) - i thought we were being quite realistic.

Can i ask then - this is my check list for ringing up on horses. I omit certain questions if they aren't relevant whilst on the phone - but do they sound too novice? See certain things might but i still think they are things we need to know?

Pictures – recent?
Any video? (all paces and jumping if poss)

Breeding/reg name?

Currently in work?
What work doing now/current regime?
How often exercised? And by who?
Do they hot up if not ridden for a few days?
Competition – what done?
Temperament any different at shows?
Dressage – level/scores?
Jumping – what height? Ok with fillers?
XC – schooled/competed? Ok with water/drops/ditches?
Any areas of training that need work?
What bit? (and is that for everything?)
Ridden vices – buck/rear/nap/bolt?
Type of ride? Easy/difficult? Forward/lazy?
Good to lunge?

Hack alone and in company?
Ok first/last?
Open spaces?
Traffic? (including farm traffic/lorries?)
Anything he’s spooky with?

Live in/out?
Mares/Geldings?
Herd position – dominant/subservient?
Temperament?
Feed?

Good to:
Box?
Shoe?
Clip?
Load/travel? (lorry/trailer?)
Bath?

Any soundness/lameness issues?
Laminitis/sweet itch?
Any known conditions or anything wouldn’t pass vetting for? (inc X-rays)
Vet been out for anything other than routine vacc’s?
Open to vet?
Disclose vet history?
Has he been vetted in the past? If so, outcome?
Is he insured? Any exclusions?
Vacc’s/teeth up to date?
Any vices? Crib/windsuck/weave/box walk?
What’s the worst thing this horse does?

How long have you owned?
Why selling?
How long has it been for sale?
Anyone else viewed? Why not suitable?

Trial facilities?
When available for viewing?
 
That's a pretty comprehensive list. I also asked what level of rider they'd had, to gauge if ridden by profs or amateurs/novices. All well for a horse to be perfectly behaved etc for a prof rider but nice to know if they've had wobbly less than perfect riders i.e. me !
 
CBAnglo said:
I think a 16.2hh allrounder that is good to hack, in the age range and price range you have stated is going to be impossible - you have basically described the horse that everyone is looking for.

You either accept a few issues (btw I ouldnt call looking at things being spooky) or you increase your budget because a horse like that could sell 10 times over.
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CBAnglo said:
I agree 100% with this. A good friend has just sold the ultimate riding club all rounder 16.2hh, gelding, 8years, very straightforward without being a world beater. (But will still have the odd spook). He was sold within 48hrs to the 2nd people to try him, who put down an immediate cash deposit and paid the full asking price without a query - £7,500 She had about 30 phone calls, with people desperate to try him - she could have probably got more.

So yes, those are the horses everyone wants and command quite a price.
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I'm also looking to buy another one and considering giving up!

One of my biggest bugbears has to be the height issue - is it really soooo difficult to measure your horse BEFORE you advertise it??

I have viewed around 10 + so far, and I would say atleast 80-85% have not been the height - or anywhere near - what they're adverised as.

So demoralising especially when they sound so perfect, right age, experience, price and then you turn up and it's a very cute womble disguised as a pony!!!
 
There were a couple in last week's H&H that appeared to fit the bill, not sure if in this week cos not got my copy yet.

Is there not a good, reputable dealer near you, I'm sure they will either have something suitable or know of something.

Good luck :)
 
Not forget to say you want to see the passport as well. As they are good at excuses for those at vetting time.
 
indie999 said:
I hate to be so pessimistic but I completely lost faith in human nature after horse 22!
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22! That makes me feel much better about the 8 I've seen so far. Unfourtunatly, despite asking my list of 26 questions on the phone, it doesn't seem to stop the seller stretching the truth/misinforming me before I visit.

Booga22 said:
One of my biggest bugbears has to be the height issue - is it really soooo difficult to measure your horse BEFORE you advertise it??
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Yes! This! The lowest point was travelling 2 1/2 hours to see a 15.1 (for sale by a reputable dealer) that when I turned up was not only 14.3 (I've measured my face with a measuring stick so I know where every height from 14.2-16.1 is on my face against the horse's withers just to be sure) but also had tiny twiglet WHP legs and a pony sized head. Looked at horse in stable, took rug off, put rug on and said no thank you.

I've also seen two others that were smaller than expected and three that were stronger than expected (after me explaining on the phone how important a soft, gentlemanly mouth was and that it was needed for personal medical reasons). Two were also A LOT greener than expected or suggested.

The only one that was completly as I expected and as promised when I saw it and that I fell in love with failed the vet :(
 
FabioandFreddy said:
The other big thing was that he was showing slight lameness behind - at trot up, work and on hard or soft surface. !
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Flame_ said:
I don't know what you call experienced but I see plenty of people who I'd call experienced riding around on (mainly bi-laterally) lame horses, and I've been round horses twenty-five years and I'm the first to admit I'm useless at judging hind-leg lameness, especially in horses I don't know.

I stand to be corrected but I expect there are plenty of experienced horse people about who've had horses fail vettings for subtle lameness they didn't spot, and bought horses with subtle lameness the vet didn't spot!
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That sounds like fairly obvious lameness to me. I'd be very surprised if someone used to riding/watching multiple horses couldn't spot an unsoundness if the horse was lame in all situations.
I do not call someone who has only ridden/looked after a single horse experienced for this purpose, no matter how long they've been riding for. And I wouldn't expect them to consider themselves experienced enough to view a horse without a more experienced person to advise them.
 
Having read various previous posts who have had similar experiences to ours, it isn't always the seller who lies! We were trying to find a suitable broodmare home for a 100% sound grade B show jumping mare who we bought with serious man made problems. We had hoped with kindness and good flat work that we could heal the "scars"...wrong and she was VERY dangerous to ride. After contacting a few studs a man recommended by a stud turned up and IMMEDIATELY could see what we had seen ie fantastic athleticism. After some rather odd enquires eg "what's she like to hack" and "is she easy to tack up" I got serious vibes as to his authenticity. He wanted to buy her there and then but I said we'd think about it. After further extensive enquiries it turned out this man had a young nephew who was highly involved in BS and "the family from hell" with regard to animal welfare.It became crystal clear he wanted the mare to continue to be competed. Thank god I didn't sell the mare to him much to his annoyance as he kept phoning me re the mare and was furious when I told him I'd sold her to someone else.
Luckily for the mare and unlucky for my bank balance I found the perfect small breeder for the mare to go to and she is in foal now.Maybe in a few years time I'll try and buy the mare's foal as if it inherits even half of the mare's ability it will be a superstar, as she would have been if not ruined by a professional show jumper.
 
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