Percherons

[Ellies_mum2]

Who is it on here that breeds Percherons?

I have seen a video of a stallion that is apparently World Champion and to me looks more like a Friesian than a Percheron and I think its feet look awful - really flat

http://www.windermerefarmspercherons.com/home.html


Is it just me that thinks the stallion is way over height or is this the breed specific now? Or just how the Americans like them? Not something I would considering putting a mare to if I was looking to breed

 

[fburton]

What an odd shape he is!

 

[ridefast]

Americans do weird stuff to their animals - just look at their cocker spaniels

 

[_GG_]

Says World Champion....many things in America are "World Champions" but with no other countries competing so would be interesting to know if this was an actual international competition.

Hate the shape of his feet. Watching him trot away from camera they are so unnatural

 

[Bryndu]

(Edited to say..thanks for posting the vid.....not having a go at you...hope it didn't read that way...apologies if it did..Bryndy)

well.....here we go again
What is it with some Americans?....the more I see ...the more I fear...sorry).
What sort of farrier laws do they have out there....appalling, appalling shoeing....and I am right in saying docking horses tails is illegal?
And what is with the shoving the stick in the poor beasts face?
Don't get me wrong.....we are not perfect in this country....but honestly?
Why oh why would you be proud of creating this sort of image on such a magnificent animal?
Sorry....rant over
Bryndu

 

[alainax]

At first I thought, just a typical "Americanized" breed, whereby they look totally different to their continental counterparts, until I saw its feet! What on earth have they done! tried to make them look bigger by growing them ridiculously long??

 

[Enfys]

Re feet. They use scotch shoes, these are put on over large pads and the hoof is left to grow into them. Results in very flared hooves, thus the exaggerated action. Toes are squared off.
Farriers, anyone can trim or shoe a horse, shoes are sold in farm stores. Certified farriers are not always easy to find, shoeing in North America v UK is very differnt.

 

[vickyb]

Looking at his feet - I wondered if they have got something attached to them - I thought I could see something flapping. Knowing how they use weights to make some (is it the walking horses?) pick their feet up, perhaps this is the same kind of thing. I have to say though, that when he is trotting away, I have never seen such truly appalling feet. Bryndu - docking is illegal in this coutry; probably not in the States. Look what they are allowed to do to dogs ears!

 

[LauraWheeler]

(Edited to say..thanks for posting the vid.....not having a go at you...hope it didn't read that way...apologies if it did..Bryndy)

well.....here we go again
What is it with some Americans?....the more I see ...the more I fear...sorry).
What sort of farrier laws do they have out there....appalling, appalling shoeing....and I am right in saying docking horses tails is illegal?
And what is with the shoving the stick in the poor beasts face?
Don't get me wrong.....we are not perfect in this country....but honestly?
Why oh why would you be proud of creating this sort of image on such a magnificent animal?
Sorry....rant over
Bryndu

Glad it's not just me. That video actualy made me cry.
Not only the state of the poor horses feet but I want to put a bit in that blokes mouth and tug on a chain attached to it and wave a stick in his face. He also actualy hit the horse several times in the face with the stick. Thats one very kind horse. If I showed Herbs like that i'd be dead.

 

[cornbrodolly]

These USA horsescertainly nothing like the beautifuk Percheron stallions we saw this year as Haras du Pin in Normandy- they were longreined, ridden and driven as a 4 horse team at the stallion demo there - spectactular.
Is there any breed of Horse, Dog,Cow, Cow that the Usa has not mulilated or weirdly altered?

 

[Morag4]

Good grief that poor animals feet, I met a Percheron at an agricultural show way back when I was a kiddie and he was a fabulous beastie looked gorgeous!

 

[RutlandH2O]

Here we go again! First of all, those of you who have made disparaging remarks about the "Americanised" versions of heavy horse turnout and farriery...get yourselves to the Shire National Show in March, here in the UK, and then to the Clydesdale National show, and take a good look at turn out and, particularly, shoeing. The Percheron stallion, Moose, is a very big boy. And, he does not look anything like a Friesian, except in colour! The reason the "stick" is in his face is for control, something you will see in virtually every exhibit at the aforementioned shows. His feet are bevelled and squared, NOT long. Heavy horses have a natural flare to their hooves by virtue of the horses' weight. Take your cameras to heavy horse shows and educate yourselves. You are making judgements based on light horse standards. The World Champion designation means that the breed show is open to entries from throughout the world, Canada being very well represented. As a matter of fact, Canada is home to many, many Percheron breeders. Whether you think so or not, Moose is sensational and is presented in a masterful way, without side reins, by a little man. He may not be everyone's cup of tea, but, to make comments based on ignorance, is counterproductive and, frankly, rude.

 

[Ellies_mum2]

(Edited to say..thanks for posting the vid.....not having a go at you...hope it didn't read that way...apologies if it did..Bryndy)

well.....here we go again
What is it with some Americans?....the more I see ...the more I fear...sorry).
What sort of farrier laws do they have out there....appalling, appalling shoeing....and I am right in saying docking horses tails is illegal?
And what is with the shoving the stick in the poor beasts face?
Don't get me wrong.....we are not perfect in this country....but honestly?
Why oh why would you be proud of creating this sort of image on such a magnificent animal?
Sorry....rant over
Bryndu

Not offended in the slightest

I share your opinion and can't believe they hold this up to be the best of his breed Definitely not my cup of tea but appreciate others may think he is the most stunning horse they have ever seen

 

[Ellies_mum2]

Here we go again! First of all, those of you who have made disparaging remarks about the "Americanised" versions of heavy horse turnout and farriery...get yourselves to the Shire National Show in March, here in the UK, and then to the Clydesdale National show, and take a good look at turn out and, particularly, shoeing. The Percheron stallion, Moose, is a very big boy. And, he does not look anything like a Friesian, except in colour! The reason the "stick" is in his face is for control, something you will see in virtually every exhibit at the aforementioned shows. His feet are bevelled and squared, NOT long. Heavy horses have a natural flare to their hooves by virtue of the horses' weight. Take your cameras to heavy horse shows and educate yourselves. You are making judgements based on light horse standards. The World Champion designation means that the breed show is open to entries from throughout the world, Canada being very well represented. As a matter of fact, Canada is home to many, many Percheron breeders. Whether you think so or not, Moose is sensational and is presented in a masterful way, without side reins, by a little man. He may not be everyone's cup of tea, but, to make comments based on ignorance, is counterproductive and, frankly, rude.

The last thing I intended to be, when I posted this link, is rude, but how are we meant to learn about other breeds and how things are done in other countries if we don't ask and post links etc asking for opinions from others? If we are lucky then (hopefully) someone with extensive knowledge will come along and educate us

 

[RutlandH2O]

Learning about other breeds and how things are done in other countries is admirable and augments one's knowledge of horses and the horse world.

However, making disparaging comments before that knowledge has been nurtured and amassed, makes for divisive, ugly sentiments at the cost of facts and perceptions. There are exceptions to everything, but criticising aspects of one category of equine performance based on a different style or type (light horse vs heavy horse), and then casting aspersions only fosters the ugliness that was initiated by sheer ignorance. Instead of making uneducated, offensive remarks, why not ask questions of those with the experience and expertise to answer and educate? It's a win-win situation.

 

[fburton]

Instead of making uneducated, offensive remarks, why not ask questions of those with the experience and expertise to answer and educate? It's a win-win situation.

Okay, I admit my knowledge of Percherons is extremely limited. What is really striking to me, though, is how different both Moose and his offspring Halo (pictured above the video) are from any of the horses I saw at the Cambridge Percheron show way back in 1979 or so, or indeed any of the very few Percherons I've seen since then. Nor do I remember them moving in that extravagant manner. Is Moose truly representative of the breed standard nowadays? Would one see anything like him in this country? How much has the standard changed in the last 40 years?

 

[MrsNorris]

Whatever happened to the beautiful deep-bodied, short-legged percherons of days gone by? I would not have guessed that he was a percheron if I hadnt been told. For me, it is a sad example of breeding gone mad and I hope that that type of percheron does not become the norm worldwide.

 

[Irishdan]

What is it with Americans and the need to turn horses into deformed freaks! Im sure the draughtmen of old would turn in their graves seeing this

 

[rowan666]

Thats a percheron?! Really?!

 

[_GG_]

Here we go again! First of all, those of you who have made disparaging remarks about the "Americanised" versions of heavy horse turnout and farriery...get yourselves to the Shire National Show in March, here in the UK, and then to the Clydesdale National show, and take a good look at turn out and, particularly, shoeing. The Percheron stallion, Moose, is a very big boy. And, he does not look anything like a Friesian, except in colour! The reason the "stick" is in his face is for control, something you will see in virtually every exhibit at the aforementioned shows. His feet are bevelled and squared, NOT long. Heavy horses have a natural flare to their hooves by virtue of the horses' weight. Take your cameras to heavy horse shows and educate yourselves. You are making judgements based on light horse standards. The World Champion designation means that the breed show is open to entries from throughout the world, Canada being very well represented. As a matter of fact, Canada is home to many, many Percheron breeders. Whether you think so or not, Moose is sensational and is presented in a masterful way, without side reins, by a little man. He may not be everyone's cup of tea, but, to make comments based on ignorance, is counterproductive and, frankly, rude.

Thank you for answering the question about "World Championship". FWIW, I used to live over there and it is my favourite place in the world so my comments were not meant as disparaging, I was asking a genuine question.

Regarding the feet...I just don't understand it.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

It is probably a Canadian Percheron. They are leggier and lighter in builder than "proper Percherons" . It is the trend for them to be shod in what can best be described as a strange way. It totally affects their action.

There are some heavy horse people in the UK who have these Canadians and they are also shod in this way. When they are judged here they tend to not do too well trust me!!!

 

[RainbowDash]

Regarding the feet...I just don't understand it.

Neither do I - the Percheron who used to be at our yards feet looks perfectly normal - big as dinner plates but normal - same with the Shires, Clydesdales I've met too

 

[Brontie]

Here we go again! First of all, those of you who have made disparaging remarks about the "Americanised" versions of heavy horse turnout and farriery...get yourselves to the Shire National Show in March, here in the UK, and then to the Clydesdale National show, and take a good look at turn out and, particularly, shoeing. The Percheron stallion, Moose, is a very big boy. And, he does not look anything like a Friesian, except in colour! The reason the "stick" is in his face is for control, something you will see in virtually every exhibit at the aforementioned shows. His feet are bevelled and squared, NOT long. Heavy horses have a natural flare to their hooves by virtue of the horses' weight. Take your cameras to heavy horse shows and educate yourselves. You are making judgements based on light horse standards. The World Champion designation means that the breed show is open to entries from throughout the world, Canada being very well represented. As a matter of fact, Canada is home to many, many Percheron breeders. Whether you think so or not, Moose is sensational and is presented in a masterful way, without side reins, by a little man. He may not be everyone's cup of tea, but, to make comments based on ignorance, is counterproductive and, frankly, rude.

Finally, someone that knows what they're talking about with a voice of knowledge!

 

[Enfys]

OK, the foot thing:

This is the excerpt from the blog I found about show percherons, I have to find the blog now for the link:

"However, it is a draft horse tradition, if you will, to put on “scotch bottom” shoes. These are the big square shaped shoe. So with our first shoeing of the season they may look a little weird to some because they look “too big”. But, the horses feet will grow out nicely in no time! By the time the shoe needs to be reset, they will probably all need bigger shoes! " and the photo to go with it



According to my farrier, who disapproves of this practice so he won't shoe show drafts, it IS just a pad and heavy shoes to encourage the flare and high action, nothing sinister like the TWH kegs.

The blog:

http://belle7306.wordpress.com/

Scroll down for the photos of feet.

I see a LOT of Percherons at shows and rodeos throughout the season, other than their feet (and headset with the tight overchecks - which distresses me immensely) their condition is generally excellent. I hate, hate, hate the overchecks that have them constantly fretting and headtossing, but I don't imagine that that is exclusive to Percherons, or North America.

 

[doriangrey]

I think he is a beautiful animal, but not what my idea of a Percheron would be. As to the shoeing, for me any shoeing which is designed to changed the natural gait of a horse is wrong imo. It seems to make the horse dish very badly in the video (unless that is his natural gait). I prefer no shoes in any case, but are heavy horses in the UK shod this way? I've no idea to be honest.

 

[Bobbly]

Sadly the days of the traditional Percheron have gone. Once they were about 15.2-16 hands and short clean legged with a deep stocky frame and unexaggerated but free action. I'm told French Percherons suffer with bad feet due to a lot being bred for meat now and lacking quality and overall they have now mutated into huge powerful animals often 17hands or more. Such a shame, they make a super horse crossed with a Tb, giving bone and depth but still with movement. A similar scenario with Suffolks, now being huge animals, some I've seen more akin to beefstock!
I don't like the American Percheron, a far cry from the traditional type that in days gone by a woman could work a genial team of.
In comparison, for what it's worth the American Shetland has suffered a change of type over there too.....http://www.americanshetlandpony.com/Pony-Divisions.html

 

[RutlandH2O]

What is it with Americans and the need to turn horses into deformed freaks! Im sure the draughtmen of old would turn in their graves seeing this

Don't you just LOVE sweeping generalisations?

As it happens, right here in the good 'ole UK, there are differences in type within breeds, light and heavy, that polarise aficionados. Within the Percheron fraternity (and the Shire horse world, for that matter) there are those who prefer the higher on leg, more modern interpretation of the breed, and those who are partial to a shorter-legged, longer-backed version. In fact, for Percherons, there are 3 breed standards, based on origins of the breed. I quote from the British Percheron Horse Society website:"Slight differences in appearance can be found between the French, North American, and British Percheron, hence, today's reference to the three types. In general, the height of the British Percheron is between that of the French and the North American." The French Percheron is shorter in stature, and the North American Percheron (US and Canadian) is taller: up to 19hh is acceptable. You may call them freaks, but they are acceptable within the framework of the standard for the breed!

Regarding feet...I was an infrequent Shire horse breeder and member of the Shire Horse Society, and a member of the British Percheron Horse Society. When my present four and a half year old Shire geldings were two and three years old, I didn't think they would have very large feet. My farrier, who has been with me for 16 years, kept telling me to be patient, because the boys hadn't reached maturity. They are both over 18hh and their feet have, finally, acquired the flare that comes with their one tonne weight. They have about two more years of maturing to achieve, and in so doing, their feet will be comparable to the oft quoted 'dinner plates' to which we make reference in heavy horses. In the world of in-hand heavy horse competition, feet are highly prized. Many canny exhibitors have bevelled shoes fitted to their horses to give the impression of even larger feet. The draughtsman of old would have been spinning in their graves if they had known about the UK custom of couping (outlawed about 12 years ago). This was a style of shoeing Clydesdales (and some Shires) which forces the hind legs closer together and tilted inwards. It had been going on for decades, starting with six weeks old foals. It distorted the bones of the legs and the heal bulb, and was "done solely for the self-interests of the breeders to win at shows and is of absolutely no benefit to the horse, whatsoever." The reason for this practice was because the standards for both breeds calls for very close hocks, unlike any other heavy or light horse breed. There's an old saying that goes like this: the hocks should be so close that if the horse dungs on his left hock, he should be able to knock it off with his right one.

I hope I have answered some of the queries that have arisen in this thread. I would never dream of making rude, inappropriate remarks about other breeds of horses for which I have no knowledge. Observations regarding condition, uncleaned tack, ungroomed exhibits, and the like, might be suitable, but there's a very narrow-minded, prejudiced attitude in many of these posts.

 

[xTrooperx]

Whatever happened to the beautiful deep-bodied, short-legged percherons of days gone by? I would not have guessed that he was a percheron if I hadnt been told. For me, it is a sad example of breeding gone mad and I hope that that type of percheron does not become the norm worldwide.

This ^

 

[Baggage]

It is probably a Canadian Percheron. They are leggier and lighter in builder than "proper Percherons" . It is the trend for them to be shod in what can best be described as a strange way. It totally affects their action.

This is what I assumed when I saw him. I looked at picture first and didn't see anything I thought out of the ordinary.
I adore the French bred Percherons and some of the studs in UK have lovely stock. I must admit I don't like the Canadian examples nearly as much. I don't like Fresians (seeing as they were mentioned) either each to their own.

 

[Irishdan]

Don't you just LOVE sweeping generalisations?

As it happens, right here in the good 'ole UK, there are differences in type within breeds, light and heavy, that polarise aficionados. Within the Percheron fraternity (and the Shire horse world, for that matter) there are those who prefer the higher on leg, more modern interpretation of the breed, and those who are partial to a shorter-legged, longer-backed version. In fact, for Percherons, there are 3 breed standards, based on origins of the breed. I quote from the British Percheron Horse Society website:"Slight differences in appearance can be found between the French, North American, and British Percheron, hence, today's reference to the three types. In general, the height of the British Percheron is between that of the French and the North American." The French Percheron is shorter in stature, and the North American Percheron (US and Canadian) is taller: up to 19hh is acceptable. You may call them freaks, but they are acceptable within the framework of the standard for the breed!

Regarding feet...I was an infrequent Shire horse breeder and member of the Shire Horse Society, and a member of the British Percheron Horse Society. When my present four and a half year old Shire geldings were two and three years old, I didn't think they would have very large feet. My farrier, who has been with me for 16 years, kept telling me to be patient, because the boys hadn't reached maturity. They are both over 18hh and their feet have, finally, acquired the flare that comes with their one tonne weight. They have about two more years of maturing to achieve, and in so doing, their feet will be comparable to the oft quoted 'dinner plates' to which we make reference in heavy horses. In the world of in-hand heavy horse competition, feet are highly prized. Many canny exhibitors have bevelled shoes fitted to their horses to give the impression of even larger feet. The draughtsman of old would have been spinning in their graves if they had known about the UK custom of couping (outlawed about 12 years ago). This was a style of shoeing Clydesdales (and some Shires) which forces the hind legs closer together and tilted inwards. It had been going on for decades, starting with six weeks old foals. It distorted the bones of the legs and the heal bulb, and was "done solely for the self-interests of the breeders to win at shows and is of absolutely no benefit to the horse, whatsoever." The reason for this practice was because the standards for both breeds calls for very close hocks, unlike any other heavy or light horse breed. There's an old saying that goes like this: the hocks should be so close that if the horse dungs on his left hock, he should be able to knock it off with his right one.

I hope I have answered some of the queries that have arisen in this thread. I would never dream of making rude, inappropriate remarks about other breeds of horses for which I have no knowledge. Observations regarding condition, uncleaned tack, ungroomed exhibits, and the like, might be suitable, but there's a very narrow-minded, prejudiced attitude in many of these posts.

Im more than happy to admit I know nothing of draught horses BUT I will never understand what is going on with the whole feet thing, despite your explinations and why they are not left as nature intended. Dont get me started on TWH! As I ve said - only in America! If I saw my horse trotting down the field like that Id be phoning the Vet. Its just wrong