Percherons

[Bryndu]

Here we go again! First of all, those of you who have made disparaging remarks about the "Americanised" versions of heavy horse turnout and farriery...get yourselves to the Shire National Show in March, here in the UK, and then to the Clydesdale National show, and take a good look at turn out and, particularly, shoeing. The Percheron stallion, Moose, is a very big boy. And, he does not look anything like a Friesian, except in colour! The reason the "stick" is in his face is for control, something you will see in virtually every exhibit at the aforementioned shows. His feet are bevelled and squared, NOT long. Heavy horses have a natural flare to their hooves by virtue of the horses' weight. Take your cameras to heavy horse shows and educate yourselves. You are making judgements based on light horse standards. The World Champion designation means that the breed show is open to entries from throughout the world, Canada being very well represented. As a matter of fact, Canada is home to many, many Percheron breeders. Whether you think so or not, Moose is sensational and is presented in a masterful way, without side reins, by a little man. He may not be everyone's cup of tea, but, to make comments based on ignorance, is counterproductive and, frankly, rude.
As it happens, right here in the good 'ole UK, there are differences in type within breeds, light and heavy, that polarise aficionados. Within the Percheron fraternity (and the Shire horse world, for that matter) there are those who prefer the higher on leg, more modern interpretation of the breed, and those who are partial to a shorter-legged, longer-backed version. In fact, for Percherons, there are 3 breed standards, based on origins of the breed. I quote from the British Percheron Horse Society website:"Slight differences in appearance can be found between the French, North American, and British Percheron, hence, today's reference to the three types. In general, the height of the British Percheron is between that of the French and the North American." The French Percheron is shorter in stature, and the North American Percheron (US and Canadian) is taller: up to 19hh is acceptable. You may call them freaks, but they are acceptable within the framework of the standard for the breed!

Regarding feet...I was an infrequent Shire horse breeder and member of the Shire Horse Society, and a member of the British Percheron Horse Society. When my present four and a half year old Shire geldings were two and three years old, I didn't think they would have very large feet. My farrier, who has been with me for 16 years, kept telling me to be patient, because the boys hadn't reached maturity. They are both over 18hh and their feet have, finally, acquired the flare that comes with their one tonne weight. They have about two more years of maturing to achieve, and in so doing, their feet will be comparable to the oft quoted 'dinner plates' to which we make reference in heavy horses. In the world of in-hand heavy horse competition, feet are highly prized. Many canny exhibitors have bevelled shoes fitted to their horses to give the impression of even larger feet. The draughtsman of old would have been spinning in their graves if they had known about the UK custom of couping (outlawed about 12 years ago). This was a style of shoeing Clydesdales (and some Shires) which forces the hind legs closer together and tilted inwards. It had been going on for decades, starting with six weeks old foals. It distorted the bones of the legs and the heal bulb, and was "done solely for the self-interests of the breeders to win at shows and is of absolutely no benefit to the horse, whatsoever." The reason for this practice was because the standards for both breeds calls for very close hocks, unlike any other heavy or light horse breed. There's an old saying that goes like this: the hocks should be so close that if the horse dungs on his left hock, he should be able to knock it off with his right one.

I hope I have answered some of the queries that have arisen in this thread. I would never dream of making rude, inappropriate remarks about other breeds of horses for which I have no knowledge. Observations regarding condition, uncleaned tack, ungroomed exhibits, and the like, might be suitable, but there's a very narrow-minded, prejudiced attitude in many of these posts.


Hi RutlandH20.
And had this video been of the national Shire show in GB.....my comments would have been exactly the same.
I didn't comment on the type the horse was as I actually found him quite stunning...though would wonder at his pulling capacity if asked to pull a plough persay...being lighter through the shoulder? But maybe he is not bred for that purpose and neither may be his offspring?
But I do know about feet....and would be very interested to see xrays of the bones in the feet....to 'understand' how the bones cope with that much splay.
Interestingly...the mares on their website are a lot heavier than the stallion.....so I am not sure why he would be of a lighter frame?
Bryndu

 

[RutlandH2O]

Irishdan: I don't know if you read my last post. How you can mention the TWH and the obscene cruelty inflicted upon them in the same breath as this Percheron is beyond me!! Most heavy horses have naturally huge feet. The shoeing you witnessed on the video (if you watched it) is commensurate with the size of the stallions feet. They are bevelled (which is a shape, nothing more) and squared at the toe...both bona fide shoeing techniques and approved by the Worshipful Company of Farriers. If you insist on comparing the farriery of a one tonne plus Percheron stallion to your light horse, you are doomed to comprehension failure!

Bryndu: Do you actually think Moose is lighter in frame? He is massive, especially his neck, crest, and shoulder (secondary sex characteristics), whereas the mares are much larger in the mid-body, proportional to their foal-carrying capabilities. If I were going to hitch Moose to a wagon, the first thing I would worry about is the ability to lift and place the collar over his head and neck. That is where the majority (if not all) of farmers would question his great size. I can't dispute that fact.

I have an 18h1" mare (mother of one of my geldings) that was shown successfully years before I acquired her. She was a Shire Horse of the Year finalist. After I'd had her for two years, I decided to have a go at showing. My farrier made her the most glorious bevelled shoes. The shoes follow the line of the hoof and gently slope slightly outward around the foot (the operative word being 'slightly'). By virtue of the weight of the steel, the shoes are heavy. My mare wouldn't tolerate hot shoeing, so she was cold shod. She won 3 Best Shod competitions. There were no tricks, sleights of hand, or deceptions in her shoeing. Two of the judges were nationally known, well-respected farriers, one of whom is published on the subject. Bevelling shoes is actually a farriery art-form. It's got to be done correctly or not at all.

When you mention splayed feet, I think you might be mistaking untrimmed, overgrown, splitting horn with wide, trimmed, flared feet. There is one photo of Moose, on his website, where he is photographed from the rear. In that shot, I do question what is going on with his feet. I thought it might have been when he was between farrier appointments, but he was plaited up.

 

[RutlandH2O]

Finally, someone that knows what they're talking about with a voice of knowledge!

Thank you, Brontie.

 

[Floxie]

I must say I'm amused by how his entire rear end is blurred out Though, granted, I'm watching on a crappy phone screen so it may just be that - but I get the feeling it was animal censorship

 

[TwyfordM]

That's not the type of percheron i love, as someone else said reminded me more of a friesian.
Give me a good old fashioned type any day! Built like a brick **** house with proper chunky legs and NORMAL hooves

 

[MagicMelon]

Re feet. They use scotch shoes, these are put on over large pads and the hoof is left to grow into them. Results in very flared hooves, thus the exaggerated action. Toes are squared off.
Farriers, anyone can trim or shoe a horse, shoes are sold in farm stores. Certified farriers are not always easy to find, shoeing in North America v UK is very differnt.

Cannot be good for the horses hooves / limbs at all, surprised he isn't lame. Looks horrid the whole picture. And why do people think its acceptable to wave a whip about in its face to the point it has to run with its head so high permanently - horrid.

 

[twiggy2]

Heavy horses have a natural flare to their hooves by virtue of the horses' weight.

the flare should result in a round flat foot not a rectangle one and it has nothing to do with the weight of the horse it was originally encourage in the UK as a flat foot does not sink so low into wet ground so the horse could work more efficiently and therefore cover more ground in a day, it was encouraged less in drier climates. the feet on that stallion are atrocious and the temperament and action do not look anything like you would expect from a working horse,

 

[twiggy2]

the following is from the British Percheron Horse Society web site;

Body

Strong neck, not short, full arched crest in case of Stallions; wide chest, deep well-laid shoulders; back strong and short; rib wide and deep, deep at flank; hind quarters of exceptional width and long from hips to tail, avoiding any suggestion of goose rump.
Limbs

Strong legs and full second thighs, big knees and broad hocks; heavy flat bone, short cannons, pasterns of medium length, feet of reasonable size, of good quality hard blue horn. Limbs as clean and free from hair as possible.
Action

Typical of the breed; straight, bold, with a long free stride rather than short snappy action. Hocks well flexed and kept close.

the following is from Wikepedia so I stand to be corrected;

the American registry also allows the registration of roan, bay and chestnut horses.[2] Only gray or black horses may be registered in France[1] and Britain.[

the above shows how America allows a lot of variation,

 

[fburton]

Why is Moose's tail docked?

 

[twiggy2]

Why is Moose's tail docked?

that must so that when he is working long days in the muddy fields that his tail does not get wet and muddy and slow him down, 'oh No that's right he does not work' must be because they can, it is of no benefit for the horse at all to remove its tail although I aam sure it benefits the flies and midges at the right time of year

 

[fburton]

American (or Canadian) Percherons are clearly quite different from British - maybe not as different as American Shetlands are from our native Shetlands, which look to me like they are a completely different breed without much overlap at all, but still strikingly so. It makes me wonder what the motivations and forces are for creating alternative breed standards like this. Is it just local fashion, or are there functional reasons too?

 

[doriangrey]

American (or Canadian) Percherons are clearly quite different from British - maybe not as different as American Shetlands are from our native Shetlands, which look to me like they are a completely different breed without much overlap at all, but still strikingly so. It makes me wonder what the motivations and forces are for creating alternative breed standards like this. Is it just local fashion, or are there functional reasons too?

Fashion I would think, and totally unecessary because if you want to show off a horse's back end or even keep the tail out of the mud there are other ways without docking. A quote from Black Beauty:

"I had often wondered how it was that Sir Oliver had such a very short tail; it really was only six or seven inches long, with a tassel of hair hanging from it; and on one of our holidays in the orchard I ventured to ask him by what accident it was that he had lost his tail. "Accident!" he snorted with a fierce look, "it was no accident! it was a cruel, shameful, cold-blooded act! When I was young I was taken to a place where these cruel things were done; I was tied up, and made fast so that I could not stir, and then they came and cut off my long and beautiful tail, through the flesh and through the bone, and took it away.

"How dreadful!" I exclaimed.

"Dreadful, ah! it was dreadful; but it was not only the pain, though that was terrible and lasted a long time; it was not only the indignity of having my best ornament taken from me, though that was bad; but it was this, how could I ever brush the flies off my sides and my hind legs any more? You who have tails just whisk the flies off without thinking about it, and you can't tell what a torment it is to have them settle upon you and sting and sting, and have nothing in the world to lash them off with. I tell you it is a lifelong wrong, and a lifelong loss; but thank heaven, they don't do it now."

"What did they do it for then?" said Ginger.

"For fashion!" said the old horse with a stamp of his foot; "for fashion! if you know what that means; there was not a well-bred young horse in my time that had not his tail docked in that shameful way, just as if the good God that made us did not know what we wanted and what looked best."

"I suppose it is fashion that makes them strap our heads up with those horrid bits that I was tortured with in London," said Ginger.

"Of course it is," said he; "to my mind, fashion is one of the wickedest things in the world. Now look, for instance, at the way they serve dogs, cutting off their tails to make them look plucky, and shearing up their pretty little ears to a point to make them both look sharp, forsooth. I had a dear friend once, a brown terrier; `Skye' they called her. She was so fond of me that she never would sleep out of my stall; she made her bed under the manger, and there she had a litter of five as pretty little puppies as need be; none were drowned, for they were a valuable kind, and how pleased she was with them! and when they got their eyes open and crawled about, it was a real pretty sight; but one day the man came and took them all away; I thought he might be afraid I should tread upon them. But it was not so; in the evening poor Skye brought them back again, one by one in her mouth; not the happy little things that they were, but bleeding and crying pitifully; they had all had a piece of their tails cut off, and the soft flap of their pretty little ears was cut quite off. How their mother licked them, and how troubled she was, poor thing! I never forgot it. They healed in time, and they forgot the pain, but the nice soft flap, that of course was intended to protect the delicate part of their ears from dust and injury, was gone forever. Why don't they cut their own children's ears into points to make them look sharp? Why don't they cut the end off their noses to make them look plucky? One would be just as sensible as the other. What right have they to torment and disfigure God's creatures?"

Moose is a glorious horse, he'd be no less glorious if he had a full tail.

 

[junglefairy]

Doriangrey - that was fantastic, thanks for posting.

I don't know enough about the shoeing practises etc to comment but those American Shetlands are just a bit silly IMO.

 

[RutlandH2O]

Sorry I hadn't mentioned the tail...I loathe docked tails!!! Many heavy horse folk, especially in Shires and Clydes, shave the dock (amputation is illegal in the UK) and leave wispy hair hanging over the dock, or none at all. It is often repeated that the removal of the tail hair is in keeping with working horses whose tails are kept short so as not to get tangled in the harness or workings of the dray. In actuality, the tails are shaven to show off the huge rear ends of the horses. Many Percheron owners in the UK, plait the tail, then fold it up so that it is no longer than the end of the dock, securing the plaited tail with decorative ribbon. It looks a treat and does show off the glorious bums of the exhibits.

 

[doriangrey]

Doriangrey - that was fantastic, thanks for posting.

I don't know enough about the shoeing practises etc to comment but those American Shetlands are just a bit silly IMO.

Ooh, thank you junglefairy

 

[ester]

Shoeing to alter the horse's action in a way that does not benefit the horse- only the owner in the show ring - is wrong period.

http://www.windermerefarmspercherons.com/Moose.html - the rear view pic is disturbing IMO

From Enfys link

yup right natural and necessary that...

 

[Paint Me Proud]

 

[doriangrey]

Well, I wouldn't be going down the America vs English route ... bad practise is bad practise wherever it originates from.

 

[DanceswithCows]

Weird shoes and sticks in faces aside, I'm shocked. It does indeed look more like a friesian :S I'm a heavy horse enthusiast, and while yes, they are getting taller and leggier than they would be for real work, I've never seen any so extreme as this guy. Fair enough if that's what people like, they are the ones who muck them out every day, but personally, it makes me sad.

 

[RutlandH2O]

Paint Me Proud: If you are going to add to this subject, perhaps you should do a bit more research. The American Cocker Spaniel is a different breed (completely different pedigrees) from the English Cocker Spaniel. They are not the same breed produced differently in the US and the UK.

The TWH you illustrate, is an criminal aberration of a truly lovely, natural breed. The people who perpetrate this cruelty on these tortured horses are in the minority, and they are universally condemned by the wider American horse-loving public.

The American Saddlebred is a stunning breed that moves extravagantly even as foals loose in their paddocks.

The American Quarter Horse you picture, above left, is not the template for the breed. Yes, there are extremes in every breed. Have you any idea as to the size of the United States? What may be desirable in Oklahoma may be rejected in Virginia.

DanceswithCows: I've never seen anything so extreme as a cow saddled (western, no less) and ridden. I'm shocked!! Fair enough if that's what you like, but personally, it makes me very sad.

 

[Paint Me Proud]

Paint Me Proud: If you are going to add to this subject, perhaps you should do a bit more research. The American Cocker Spaniel is a different breed (completely different pedigrees) from the English Cocker Spaniel. They are not the same breed produced differently in the US and the UK.

The TWH you illustrate, is an criminal aberration of a truly lovely, natural breed. The people who perpetrate this cruelty on these tortured horses are in the minority, and they are universally condemned by the wider American horse-loving public.

The American Saddlebred is a stunning breed that moves extravagantly even as foals loose in their paddocks.

The American Quarter Horse you picture, above left, is not the template for the breed. Yes, there are extremes in every breed. Have you any idea as to the size of the United States? What may be desirable in Oklahoma may be rejected in Virginia.

.

 

[Boodles]

I have a question about the original video...

For me, I'd expect a draught horse - much like any other horse - to power himself along with his hind quarters. Yes, he'll be pulling at the front end, but the energy to do that pulling has to come from somewhere. The stallion in the video's hind legs looked to have what I would assess to be an odd action and they seemed to trail out behind him too.

I'm not judging, this is an honest observation.

However, I did not see the need for the horse to constantly have a stick in his face to keep his head up when he was behaving politely (yes, correct him if he gets ahead of you, I do the same with my own horses but not with a stick mind you) - surely a draught horse should have a good temperament to work with anyway, regardless of sex?

And the lady on the ground with the long whip was very quick to duck out of the horse's way when he momentarily challenged her space - and I'm afraid I thought quite right on his part too!


I had a Percheron come to me to be backed and lightly ridden away last year (pictured below) - the owners have another too. He found it difficult to engage his quarters, but strengthened up alot with much slow and (hopefully) correct work. He was shod by my farrier with normal shoes and moved well without fancy shoes. I felt the stallion in the video was not straight at all when he trotted. Is straightness not so important?

My points seem quite negative, but there's no point asking about the things I understand the relevance of or am used to seeing!

 

[RutlandH2O]

Boodles: I don't take your post as negative, at all. You are genuinely looking for answers. Several people have posted regarding the 'stick' in the horse's face. In the world of heavy horse in-hand showing, the whip is COMMONLY held in front of the horse's face for control, especially at the trot. It is generally kept right there so that the horse doesn't have a chance to get ahead of the handler. Interestingly, in Shire and Clydesdale classes, stallions are ALWAYS shown in surcingles and side reins...always. I was, frankly, quite surprised to see the video of Moose being shown 'naked.' Aside from the fact that he is massive, he is a stallion and there is a very short man handling him (not that a taller person would have much luck in stopping the horse if he decided to take off). The woman behind, using the whip, is doing a very common practice of assisting the handler. As I type this, I realise that showing heavies is not something with which the majority of HHO posters have experience. Whether or not these procedures are accepted by people unfamiliar with them, the point is they are common practice and are extremely familiar to me and every other heavy horse in-hand showing enthusiast. Moose's temperament is not in question. As I just mentioned, he is a massive stallion and, as such, to be shown without any other controlling tack, except for his bridle, he is a good boy.

Yes, Moose has a very active hind leg. I have been taught that a draught horse uses his shoulder for pulling, and that the majority of a horse's weight is carried by the front end, not the rear. I think if Moose were given his head a bit more, his hind legs would reach under himself more, but I strongly doubt Moose will be pulling a plough any time soon.

 

[Pigeon]

What have they done to his feet?!??!?!

 

[Pigeon]

Read back - whatever the reasoning behind that shoeing practise, my instant reaction was nausea!

 

[DanceswithCows]

DanceswithCows: I've never seen anything so extreme as a cow saddled (western, no less) and ridden. I'm shocked!! Fair enough if that's what you like, but personally, it makes me very sad.

Perhaps only because you haven't done your homework Cattle have been in work longer than horses, nothing 'extreme' about it.

 

[RutlandH2O]

Paint Me Proud: I forgot to mention that, as well as the American Cocker vs the English Cocker, the American Foxhound is NOT the US take on the English Foxhound. They are completely different breeds, with different stud books. Both breeds are exhibited in the Hound Group, as are both breeds of cockers in the Sporting (Gundog) group in the US.

Dances: Gee, the last time I saw ridden cattle, anywhere, is...? Perhaps you didn't realise I was paraphrasing your first post!

 

[DanceswithCows]

Dances: Gee, the last time I saw ridden cattle, anywhere, is...? Perhaps you didn't realise I was paraphrasing your first post!

Of course I do, I just don't think it's a great analogy....

 

[ester]

so do you agree with the shoeing RH2O?

 

[palo1]

Oh dear. I understand about different breeds and ways of showing but...those feet don't look functional for the poor horse and all of my horses, regardless of breed or work, would consider it extremely bad manners if I kept a whip or stick at their faces in that way. If the horse can't be handled without this constant nuisance then presumably the handler is not up to the job. I don't think it matters where this is happening, it represents a loss of respect and dignity for the horse. What a shame.