Percherons

[ester]

fwiw the photos I have found of the 2013 UK breed champs (at suffolk show) seem to show horses with normally shod feet. I think I also saw the in-hand champ driving at the new forest show (and winning) with normal feet.

 

[Gingerwitch]

But isnt the whole show thing a contradiction, that swoman is running around with her whip trying to drive the horse forward and then the man is frantically waving a stick in the horses face to stop it ?? and did you notice the way the horse looks at that woman - i think the look said more about whom is the cruel one out of that set up than anything else.

 

[ester]

A couple of pics of a black percheron team (so we aren't swayed by colour ) at the breed society champs 2012, with round looking feet. (I can't find any square ones on the fb page so am not sure why RutlandH2O says they are the same over here?

more percheron pics here, including a series of old studbook photos - none of which (current or historical pics) seem to much resemble the horse in the video.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...302.-2207520000.1388402513.&type=3&permPage=1

eta I think the above are canadian.. I just can't really see the resemblance to the US horse who I probs wouldn't pick out as being percheron compared to the rest of these pics.

 

[NellRosk]

In comparison, for what it's worth the American Shetland has suffered a change of type over there too.....http://www.americanshetlandpony.com/Pony-Divisions.html

That's not a Shetland pony :eek3: :eek3:

 

[palo1]

Certainly not as we know them!! None of the American ones bear any resemblance to the ponies in the Shetlands or any that I've ever met. The Perherons that ester shows above look much much better types and more likely to be sound in wind, limb and temperament than the American champion. We truly are two cultures divided by a common language!!

 

[RutlandH2O]

so do you agree with the shoeing RH2O?

The photo you posted earlier is of hooves, the likes of which I have NEVER seen! If that is what's going on in Percheron classes in the US and Canada, I most definitely don't agree with it. However, watching Moose move in the video (and looking at the feet of the other horses in the class), what I am seeing is huge feet with bevelled shoes. My experience with Shires and Clydes is not dissimilar to that which is in the video, the main difference being the Shires and Clydes are heavily feathered. The feathering on their legs covers most of the hoof. What many exhibitors do, when grooming Shires/Clydes for the show ring, is gently pluck and thin some of the feather from above and around the fetlock to expose the shape of the joint. So, instead of having a 'hula skirt' from below the knee flaring out to the lower portion of the hoof, the feather is thinned out exposing the joint and enhancing the size of the hoof.

I have stop-actioned the video, dozens of times, to try and inspect Moose's hooves, but to no avail. Everything gets blurry. Suffice it to say that exhibiting, grooming, shoeing heavies is quite a different undertaking from that of light horses.

 

[ester]

I thought that the photos of both himself and briar hill trademark on the windermere farms stallion pages showed particularly flared feet in front.

and the video at about 40 s where he walks towards the camera - his feet look huge/clownish compared to those of the british percherons.

eta and 2.07 when he is stood (and those of the horse behind him)

 

[RutlandH2O]

Oh dear. I understand about different breeds and ways of showing but...those feet don't look functional for the poor horse and all of my horses, regardless of breed or work, would consider it extremely bad manners if I kept a whip or stick at their faces in that way. If the horse can't be handled without this constant nuisance then presumably the handler is not up to the job. I don't think it matters where this is happening, it represents a loss of respect and dignity for the horse. What a shame.

I won't argue with you, you have every right to your opinion. Please, though, just expose yourself to something for which you, obviously, have no experience. Try and attend a heavy horse show. You will see, especially with stallions, handling that is not unlike what is on the video. The main difference is that Moose is shown without side reins which give a greater amount of control. His handler actually does an admirable job with a massive stallion that is full of beans. The woman at the rear is not simply there to drive on the horse, she is basically there to remind him to stay straight and carry forward. You may think it is bad manners to place the handle of the whip in front of the horse's face, but, in fact, it is there to keep the horse focussed and controlled. You must remember, many of these heavies weigh well over a tonne, particularly Moose. No one places the dignity and respect of horses higher than I do, but, when exhibiting such immense animals in public places, control is everything. It has nothing to do with cruelty or callousness and everything to do with control. It really is that simple.

 

[RutlandH2O]

fwiw the photos I have found of the 2013 UK breed champs (at suffolk show) seem to show horses with normally shod feet. I think I also saw the in-hand champ driving at the new forest show (and winning) with normal feet.

The use of bevelled shoes is optional. Some have squared toes, others more rounded. It is the personal choice of the exhibitor. Bevelled shoes, squared or rounded, tend to be specialist farriery handiwork. They are both permitted by the Worshipful Company of Farriers. I repeat, if Moose's feet are an example of the first photo you posted, then I cannot agree with such a practice.

I might add that most heavy horse shows have a a foot judge who is a qualified farrier. He/she examines the exhibits' feet and, at the end of each class, the winner is identified and, later, goes forward with the foot winners of all the classes and competes for best shod and/or best feet. Exhibits have been excused do to unacceptable farriery. Whether such a designation existed at Moose's show, I have no idea.

 

[Enfys]

I have to say that it is very interesting and informative to have someone who obviously knows their stuff about the heavies commenting.

As you know, I live in Canada so I am VERY familiar with the sight of teams of tall black Percherons at shows and rodeos, I also have an excellent farrier who is happy to answer my "OMG what do they DO to their feet?" questions, and what the blog I linked to earlier says is just what he says that he would do if he was shoeing SHOW horses. Big pads and the horses feet are encouraged to flare to fit. For shows any missing parts are made up with PUTTY and painted, I have see that, and I have been told that by showmen too.

If I could get photos up I would show you photos of two year olds at a local show.

I do have to say that apart from the size and shape my farrier assures me that there is nothing sinister about the actual shoes (he was close mouthed about training practices behind barn doors) I have read people saying that they are akin to the kegs used for TWH, they are not.

 

[palo1]

I have attended several heavy horse shows in recent years in this country and been privelaged to meet some of the horses on close terms and discuss them with their very knowledgeable handlers. I have also met and admired a number of working heavy horses - those ploughing, logging and on one memorable occasion, harvesting. I have direct experience of daily handling of a 17'2 part shire stallion - though he is neither a work or show horse. All of those horses were treated with great respect, without the need for the sort of 'control' exhibited in the video of Moose. I just believe that if an entire stallion can't be shown sympathetically and with dignity then he probably shouldn't be in that situation whether that be due to his temperament or the abilities of the handler. Stallions can have very strong ideas and as you say, a horse that large may present issues of 'control'. If that is the case then perhaps he should stay at home, rather than have the stress of that situation. I am not a fan of side reins at all so I wouldn't comment on whether their use in that situation may be better. It is quite possible for stallions to be shown and to compete successfully - but it does take tact and skill to ensure that it is a happy and safe partnership. I didn't post to comment on that particularly, just to say that in my opinion both his feet and his handling seem unfortunate and not something to be proud of.

 

[siennamum]

There is an 18 hand shire stallion locally who competes in dressage, local fun shows and who wins breed championships nationally. He can be led around like a Labrador and epitomises what I would expect from a heavy, some fire, light on his feet & capable, but kind and mannerly. We have a 17.2 shire mare in the village who is just the same, an absolute saint of a horse, plenty of spirit, but just a gentle giant.

The horses in this thread are hideous. They have been bred to have serious conformation faults which along with the horrendous shoeing must make their lives an absolute misery. Their movement is unnatural and ludicrous and nothing like the conservative practical way they should move.

Anyone who defends this really is simply defending cruelty in the name of fashion and if they actually know anything about horses, it just makes their attitudes and complacence worse. Horses aren't toys, they have a right to be comfortable and pain free, and to be treated with some respect.

 

[twiggy2]

there is an 18 hand shire stallion locally who competes in dressage, local fun shows and who wins breed championships nationally. He can be led around like a labrador and epitomises what i would expect from a heavy, some fire, light on his feet & capable, but kind and mannerly. We have a 17.2 shire mare in the village who is just the same, an absolute saint of a horse, plenty of spirit, but just a gentle giant.

The horses in this thread are hideous. They have been bred to have serious conformation faults which along with the horrendous shoeing must make their lives an absolute misery. Their movement is unnatural and ludicrous and nothing like the conservative practical way they should move.

Anyone who defends this really is simply defending cruelty in the name of fashion and if they actually know anything about horses, it just makes their attitudes and complacence worse. Horses aren't toys, they have a right to be comfortable and pain free, and to be treated with some respect.

hear hear

 

[cornbrodolly]

hear hear +1

 

[Wagtail]

It is obvious to me, that the purpose of the stick in the face is to keep a high head carriage. Not 'control' at all. Very similar to what they do with the Arabians in the states. Not something I enjoy seeing.

 

[Pigeon]

Palo and Siennamum, fantastic posts. From what I can see, the shoes do look like they affect his movement, and in my honest opinion, I find that massively off-putting. He moves like how a person moves when they're wearing flippers!

I have the Hanoverian auction channel on youtube, and some of these warmblood stallions are pretty huge, often handled by small women, and you don't see the whip waving. I think they were just trying to hype him up to get exaggerated movement for the video, I doubt it's how he is usually handled. I agree though, it makes him look bolshy when I'm sure he's not.

If I wanted to use him as a stallion I would much rather see a loose video, without the shoes, to get an idea of how he naturally moves and what he will actually pass down to his offspring.

I think Moose is a stunning horse, but admittedly I know nothing about Percherons or their breed standard. To me he looks like a carriage horse rather than a plough horse. Would anything that fired up actually be useful on the farm? The exaggerated movement would not be great for conserving energy, or be easily contained. I just really don't like how he is presented.

I know they are used less for agricultural work now, but it seems a shame to stray too far from the original type, though you do see evolution in all breeds to meet modern demand, so perhaps it is just a natural process. Perhaps a hundred years down the line everything will trot like a warmblood

As for the docked tail - that is cruelty, pure and simple. How anyone could do that to an animal is beyond me.

 

[ester]

Thanks for those pics enfys.

 

[Bobbly]

Interesting reading.....
http://www.percheron.org.uk/about/
http://www.percheron.org.uk/about/percheron.html

 

[Puddock]

My horse isn't a heavy, but a warmblood bred for driving (Dutch harness horse, or "Tuigpaard"). He does, however, have some very "heavy" characteristics - huge shoulder, high head carriage, incredibly close hocks and ginormous, flared feet. He's also pretty pigeon-toed, but that's just him!

He's obviously used as a riding horse with me, and I know that to others on the yard, he looks odd. I'm not bothered about his shape, though and his trot is to die for (as long as you are not trying to sit to it).He is unshod and trimmed regularly by my excellent farrier, who lets him grow the flare he needs, because without it, he wouldn't cope. He's not that huge height-wise (16.3), but there's a lot of him. His feet are almost circular in shape and not far off 7 inches in diameter.

The best bit? He's 23, and only now are we beginning to encounter mild soundness issues in the form of a touch of fetlock arthritis. When I took him to the vet for a work up, they were amazed at how well he trotted up and how well he did in the flexion tests. Sometimes a deviation from what we view as the norm - at least in terms of riding horses - can be a good thing. Just because you are not used to seeing certain characteristics being viewed positively, does not automatically make them something to he reviled

 

[MrsNorris]

There is an 18 hand shire stallion locally who competes in dressage, local fun shows and who wins breed championships nationally. He can be led around like a Labrador and epitomises what I would expect from a heavy, some fire, light on his feet & capable, but kind and mannerly. We have a 17.2 shire mare in the village who is just the same, an absolute saint of a horse, plenty of spirit, but just a gentle giant.

The horses in this thread are hideous. They have been bred to have serious conformation faults which along with the horrendous shoeing must make their lives an absolute misery. Their movement is unnatural and ludicrous and nothing like the conservative practical way they should move.

Anyone who defends this really is simply defending cruelty in the name of fashion and if they actually know anything about horses, it just makes their attitudes and complacence worse. Horses aren't toys, they have a right to be comfortable and pain free, and to be treated with some respect.

Agree wholeheartedly.......

 

[_GG_]

Just because something has always been done does not necessarily mean that it should be done.

I don't personally care for how extravagant a horse looks, I care for how healthy and happy it is!

 

[fburton]

Interesting reading.....
http://www.percheron.org.uk/about/
http://www.percheron.org.uk/about/percheron.html

Yes indeed - thanks for posting the link.

"The British Percheron Horse Society is not connected to any other Percheron Breed Society, it stands alone and has always set its own ‘breed standard’. Imported animals are identified separately in the Society’s Stud Books."

So would it be correct to say that the American/Canadian Percheron is a different breed from the British Percheron, in the same way as the American Foxhound is a different breed from the English Foxhound?

 

[RutlandH2O]

palo1: I suggest you make your feelings known to the Shire Horse Society and the Clydesdale Horse Society. Shire and Clyde stallions have been shown, successfully, in side reins for over a century. When these stallions are shown on their respective stallion days at their national shows, their appearance is in great numbers...much greater than at any time on their respective farms. There is a huge buzz at these shows where many horses are stabled in close proximity to each other. Does the word testosterone ring any bells? For the majority of stallion owners, their national show is the only time their stallions will be brought out and shown. The Shire Show is in March, every year, and is the stallion showcase for mare owners wanting to choose a stallion for their mares' next foals. When I first started going to the Shire Show, almost 20 years ago, I asked my mentor why the stallions had to wear side reins. When he answered that it was to control the stallions' possible urge to mount and to contain their impressive strength, it all made so much sense. That is precisely why I was so surprised that the horses in the Moose video were not in side reins. Wagtail suggested that the whip handle in the face was to keep the horse's head held high. In Moose's case, perhaps, but seeing as the only thing keeping him from exploding was his bridle, the stick placed where it was helped contain and focus his energy. Again, I must repeat that handling such massive breeding stallions, as friendly and as well-trained as they may be, does require addition reinforcements in the situation.

Too many people posting on this thread have made comments based on light horse show handling. There has to be a leap of understanding of a completely different, alien manner of doing things in reference to the heavy horse. People are commenting on cruelty and a lack of respect for their horses. Nothing could be further from the truth! These horses are NOT in pain...from where does that come? These aren't TWHs. They are heavies with very heavy steel shoes. If, in fact, the North American Percherons are wearing peculiar shoes in relation to their hooves, then that is wrong. But, to say they are suffering?

 

[fburton]

I don't personally care for how extravagant a horse looks, I care for how healthy and happy it is!

Same here. I suspect the desire for extravagance comes from the idea (misguided, imo) that "more is better", so that exaggeration of a feature is considered more highly than the happy medium.

 

[siennamum]

Whenever I have seen shires shown, and I have judged them in amongst other horses a few times, they have been stallions, and they were shown without exception by little old blokes. Wily handlers they may have been but they were all of 5 ft 2 and generally claiming a pension and never had to resort to waving sticks in the horses faces to retain control. I've seen little old blokes (sorry to sound sexist or ageist here) also handling 2 shires side by side in the showring with no overt gestures or rough handling.

The stallion in that video is only happy when he's allowed to stop. He keeps trying to canter as he finds trot uncomfortable. He is really stressed and confused by the way he is being handled and would fail a vet on the basis of that trot. He is having to sway his hips excessively to accommodate his feet. Poor Poor thing. RH20, if you think that is good horse handling then I despair.

 

[RutlandH2O]

enfys: Thank you so much for your comments and the photos. Here in the UK, we have quite a few Canadian Percherons. They are higher on leg than their British and French counterparts. Being, for the most part, black, they also look more refined. The photos, showing the horses' feet, were a revelation. I wasn't impressed. Such long feet! Re: filling the hooves with filler and paint. Shires horses have been exported to all parts of the globe. I met someone from Sweden who had imported a stallion from the UK. He told me that the horse had the most appalling feet, having massive cracks filled with automobile body filler. The horse was not able to fulfill his destiny as a breeding stallion. Fast forward to the very recent past. The person who exported that horse has been expelled from membership in the Society (there were other cruelty circumstances, as well). It's reassuring to know that there is nothing sinister in the shoeing practices mentioned by your farrier.

 

[fburton]

Whenever I have seen shires shown, and I have judged them in amongst other horses a few times, they have been stallions, and they were shown without exception by little old blokes. Wily handlers they may have been but they were all of 5 ft 2 and generally claiming a pension and never had to resort to waving sticks in the horses faces to retain control. I've seen little old blokes (sorry to sound sexist or ageist here) also handling 2 shires side by side in the showring with no overt gestures or rough handling.

Very true - though I have also seen these little old blokes (and the odd lady - Cheryl Clark comes to mind) become quite fierce (mainly in a vocal way) when the situation demanded it.

 

[RutlandH2O]

Whenever I have seen shires shown, and I have judged them in amongst other horses a few times, they have been stallions, and they were shown without exception by little old blokes. Wily handlers they may have been but they were all of 5 ft 2 and generally claiming a pension and never had to resort to waving sticks in the horses faces to retain control. I've seen little old blokes (sorry to sound sexist or ageist here) also handling 2 shires side by side in the showring with no overt gestures or rough handling.

The stallion in that video is only happy when he's allowed to stop. He keeps trying to canter as he finds trot uncomfortable. He is really stressed and confused by the way he is being handled and would fail a vet on the basis of that trot. He is having to sway his hips excessively to accommodate his feet. Poor Poor thing. RH20, if you think that is good horse handling then I despair.

The little, old blokes (one of my mares is from just such a person) usually handle quiet mares. Many of the old blokes have their sons and daughters standing by to help. Trust me, I have been very involved in this for many years. Many of those old man don't have the balance to run, hold the horses, and hold the stick up at the same time. I hate to admit this, but many of those old blokes have had several 'words' with those horses behind the barn...if you know what I mean!

As far as Moose is concerned...you must be viewing a different video. There is no way he would fail a vet on that trot. He is trying to canter because he is ready to explode. You will have to despair, because you haven't got a clue!!!

 

[ester]

Enfys' pictures do show what I see in the original video (and other videos of the same show/different horses).

and that while shoeing a horse in such a way (to change it's movement - they would say enhance) may not make it immediately uncomfortable but has long term welfare issues.

 

[ester]

Yes indeed - thanks for posting the link.

"The British Percheron Horse Society is not connected to any other Percheron Breed Society, it stands alone and has always set its own ‘breed standard’. Imported animals are identified separately in the Society’s Stud Books."

So would it be correct to say that the American/Canadian Percheron is a different breed from the British Percheron, in the same way as the American Foxhound is a different breed from the English Foxhound?

No I don't think so, imported animals are permitted- they just have to be a member of the originating countries studbook and be inspected over here.

(American foxhounds being a mix of hounds (english/French) developed separately from the english some time ago.