Birker2020
Well-Known Member
^^This 100%
Perplexed query about hat use
- Thread starter Wyatt1928
- Start date
Cortez
Tough but Fair
But I’m not working on a building site, I’m working in an industry that is very safety conscious, is actually quite dangerous at times and risk assesses rigorously, and also positively requires people not to wear riding helmets. I have no problem with the culture of the UK being so fanatic about the wearing of helmets, go you, but I also have no problem with the majority of riders around the world not doing so. I wonder if there are any stats to compare on rider head injuries from around the world? That’d be interesting.
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
I think what you have to bear in mind is that children and teens can be highly impressionable and whilst it may look cool to them to not wear a hat because A, B, or C doesn't help the situation any.
I think its silly to not wear a hat when riding but obviously costume dramas they can't.
I think its silly to not wear a hat when riding but obviously costume dramas they can't.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
If you want to wear a hat all the time do so , I do .
But why on earth make a fuss about situations where adults take choices not to for lots of reasons .
There are many many things people do that damage them or could potentially damage them eating to much chocolate is one gardening is another I am not sure why riding is so different .
But why on earth make a fuss about situations where adults take choices not to for lots of reasons .
There are many many things people do that damage them or could potentially damage them eating to much chocolate is one gardening is another I am not sure why riding is so different .
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Ah now it’s “will no one think of the children” as well: nope, not doing that one either. You tell your children what to do, nothing to do with me, and I don’t wear a hat at home either. Not dead yet, so it’s working out just fine. “Foreigners” will continue to laugh at the hat wearing brits, and you can all feel smug about the endangered natives when you ride abroad, so everyone will be happy.
bonny
Well-Known Member
You could all go round in circles forever with this topic and still never agree ?
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
that comment wasn't reflected at you Cortez but I do find your sense of justification a bit off.
Surely you have to set a good example to children. I was told I always had to wear a hat by my parents but would often walk over the fields to get my horse from the herd and vault on with just a headcollar because I'd seen my friends or adults do the same.
I think when you have your own yard and don't choose to wear your hat that's okay but when you are on a livery yard with children around you need to set a good example as they are so impressionable.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Do we have to agree? Yous do you (not you personally), leave everyone else alone.
ETA: nope, I’m not going to do/not do things because someone else’s children might think I’m cool. That’s not my problem.
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smolmaus
Well-Known Member
If someone has done the assessment and the statistics say it is safer not to wear a helmet in one specific circumstance in your industry that is something I could understand but I don't think it holds up for not wearing hats when riding in general. The construction example was intended to illustrate that not every otherwise very capable adult is good at accurately assessing their own risk at any given time. There will always be true, unforseeable accidents and mandating safety equipment has positive effects in those circumstances. The number of lives saved or injuries prevented will obviously vary wildly between activity but for the sake of convenience (or "I won't be told what to do" in the example of construction) not using very basic PPE just seems ridiculous.
planete
Well-Known Member
I suffered a small brain bleed a few weeks ago when Woody accidentally touched an electric fence behind us and caught my side throwing me to the ground which was very hard at the time. I had no hat on as I was leading him. I considered briefly whether I should stopping being around horses while I was waiting for the ambulance. I concluded that no, I had suffered a freak accident and we cannot guarantee safety at all times and no, I would not wear a hat when around horses. I now do when I ride, but only because I moved to the south of England where it seems to be morally compulsory and I have to hack on roads. Previously I did not wear one and had no accident breaking and riding horses for up to four hours a day. You learn how to keep yourself safe by being able to assess the potential risks accurately and never pushing your luck by getting on a horse if your instinct tells you it isn't ready. I feel far more at risk driving a car really. i had a four year old child who wore a hat while I did not, but then he was prone to falling off!
Professional riders acquire mega sharp reflexes and can read horses' moods and smallest indications of tension accurately. Leisure riders do not often have these advantages and definitely need to take more elaborate precautions to mitigate the risks so I agree most people should wear hats and body protectors. I know that any break of a few weeks in my riding saw a deterioration of my reflexes and put me at risk of a fall in the first week I started riding again, then it all came back and I was ok sitting mega bucks and spooks.
Professional riders acquire mega sharp reflexes and can read horses' moods and smallest indications of tension accurately. Leisure riders do not often have these advantages and definitely need to take more elaborate precautions to mitigate the risks so I agree most people should wear hats and body protectors. I know that any break of a few weeks in my riding saw a deterioration of my reflexes and put me at risk of a fall in the first week I started riding again, then it all came back and I was ok sitting mega bucks and spooks.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
j1ffy
Well-Known Member
This is certainly a topic with strong passions on both sides of the argument, and neither side will convince the other - I don't think they need to either..!!
Re: film / stunt riders, the level of training of both horse and rider can't be compared to hobby of competition riders. As I understand it the time taken to very precisely train horses is far beyond what most horse owners / trainers do. In addition the riders are well-trained to fall safely, as they are paid to do so. Actors' horses will be safe conveyances and there will be a lot of work done to keep the stars safe (it's the extras that need to take more care I'd imagine!).
I do think that the UK approach to horses is riskier than the approach in some other places (I use Spain as my reference point here). Less capable riders are more likely to ride fast / jump, probably due to our hunting roots, whereas in Spain there is more emphasis on training and dressage movements. Horses are bred to be safe and trained to look after the rider. I just don't think that mentality is the same here. I'd be more likely to get on a Spanish-horse trained in Spain without a hat than a TB or warmblood.
Incidentally I am as indoctrinated into riding with a hat as I am into wearing a seatbelt in a car. My livery yard has a rule requesting a hat is worn at all times when mounted.
Oh and around here you do see people driving with a riding helmet on fairly often ? but only because there are dozens of racing yards and some jockeys / riders move between yards for different lots.
Re: film / stunt riders, the level of training of both horse and rider can't be compared to hobby of competition riders. As I understand it the time taken to very precisely train horses is far beyond what most horse owners / trainers do. In addition the riders are well-trained to fall safely, as they are paid to do so. Actors' horses will be safe conveyances and there will be a lot of work done to keep the stars safe (it's the extras that need to take more care I'd imagine!).
I do think that the UK approach to horses is riskier than the approach in some other places (I use Spain as my reference point here). Less capable riders are more likely to ride fast / jump, probably due to our hunting roots, whereas in Spain there is more emphasis on training and dressage movements. Horses are bred to be safe and trained to look after the rider. I just don't think that mentality is the same here. I'd be more likely to get on a Spanish-horse trained in Spain without a hat than a TB or warmblood.
Incidentally I am as indoctrinated into riding with a hat as I am into wearing a seatbelt in a car. My livery yard has a rule requesting a hat is worn at all times when mounted.
Oh and around here you do see people driving with a riding helmet on fairly often ? but only because there are dozens of racing yards and some jockeys / riders move between yards for different lots.
Peglo
Well-Known Member
I’m still mad about the end scene in the hobbit TDOS with Legolas on “a horse”. How can they make Smaug so real but that crap attempt of a horse upset me. (TO THIS DAY ?) just use a real horse!
I used to ride my first pony without a hat. I usually rode bareback too and fell off now and again with her going too quick around turns. Fortunately never hit me head but I wouldn’t ride now without a helmet.
but if I was going to nip out on the push bike I wouldn’t put a hat on. For a longer cycle on busier roads I would. Just laziness usually.
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
It doesn't please me. I'm not making an emotional appeal here to please be safe. I'm making a factual observation that just because you and millions of other people do it doesn't mean it isn't increasing a risk for very little benefit. The point I was originally responding to was that a lot of the time making a personal "calculated risk" isn't always accurate. As a species, humans aren't historically great at it.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but your 'I have done it for 20 years and I'm fine' point is just as arbitrary as the other points you are shooting down. You have been lucky, very lucky - you cannot calculate the risks on horse riding as there is no reliable/consistent data. The most bombproof horse who has never broken out of a walk who you have owned for 30 years could get shocked by a fence or flown into by a bird and you could die tomorrow. I rode a cob once who decked only one person ever, me.. and that was because a deer ran out of the bush and straight into his shoulder and promptly died - who could have predicted that?!
No you shouldn't have to do it to be a good example to someone elses children, yes other countries don't do it but they also eat unrefrigerated meat, treat illness with prayer and drink water filled with bacteria. Am I going to do that? No.
Re: the hat debate, I personally think that people who don't wear hats should be more considerate of the fact that they are using up resources designed to help people who have had accidents, or a traumatic events, not to scrape up your grey matter from the floor becaise you couldn't take one additional step to protect yourself. I also think hi-vis should be legally required as we also can't moan about treatment on the roads if people can't see us.
I think the same about anyone who has made decisions and are suffering the consequences, smokers lung cancer (and I am a smoker), drunk people with broken bones, skin burns from motorbike riding in jeans.
Would I yell at someone at a livery for not wearing a hat? No. Do I think they should be front of the queue for an ambulance if they come off? Also no.
teapot
Well-Known Member
What’s the insurance situation like in Europe and the rest of the world?
As that drives a lot of the UK re hat wearing, whether it be a riding school, livery yards, or competition venues running under rules.
MagicMelon
Well-Known Member
You've got to remember lots of other countries simply dont wear hats, its just not in their culture. I always wear a hat, but in saying that I did ride quite often when I was in the States and never wore a hat as a kid as they simply never offered me one as it wasnt a normal thing there. You couldnt possibly wear hats in films, it'd look ridiculous. Yes its a risk for the riders but its their choice. I would find it very strange someone in the UK riding without one, but obviously it happens. Just depends what you're used to.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I have not been particularly lucky, but I have been careful, and skilled. I've been a professional rider for more than 30 years, have broken a few bits, had horses fall on me, not fallen off an awful lot, seen two people killed around horses (both wearing hats), had some freak occurrences (like your deer incident above, but with bears (US), a wild boar (Spain), and other things). The only time I've been in an ambulance has been as the result of car accidents (me not the driver). I am happy with my ability to make decisions. There is actually data on riding accidents available; it's assessed as comparable with playing rugby I believe. I love your assessment of "other countries"; very English
. I've ridden in many countries around the world, most of them are not as you describe, other than being hatless.ETA: Would I ever wear a hat? Yes I do: on very scared horses, on the road (which I haven't been on for 15+ years - far too dangerous), in competition, if required by an establishment at which I'm riding. Generally if the horse looks dangerous enough to warrant the wearing of a hat, then I won't ride the horse. That has occurred about twice.
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Skib
Well-Known Member
Things change. Replies here may be generational. But it interests me that that since we started watching high goal polo 20 years ago, the rule at Cowdray Park must have changed and anyone riding a horse now wears a hard hat, includig the south American grooms.
By the way I think Rugby is more dangerous than riding. But this is for injuries in general. Not head injuries.
By the way I think Rugby is more dangerous than riding. But this is for injuries in general. Not head injuries.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
I have not been particularly lucky, but I have been careful, and skilled. I've been a professional rider for more than 30 years, have broken a few bits, had horses fall on me, not fallen off an awful lot, seen two people killed around horses (both wearing hats), had some freak occurrences (like your deer incident above, but with bears (US), a wild boar (Spain), and other things). The only time I've been in an ambulance has been as the result of car accidents (me not the driver). I am happy with my ability to make decisions. There is actually data on riding accidents available; it's assessed as comparable with playing rugby I believe. I love your assessment of "other countries"; very English
ETA: Would I ever wear a hat? Yes I do: on very scared horses, on the road (which I haven't been on for 15+ years - far too dangerous), in competition, if required by an establishment at which I'm riding. Generally if the horse looks dangerous enough to warrant the wearing of a hat, then I won't ride the horse. That has occurred about twice.
I am absolutely not doubting your skill or experience, but I firmly believe that you can be as careful as you like but a huge portion of the outcome relies solely on luck. Especially when the reliance is on a prey animal with a mind of its own. In all honesty if I had a run in with a bear I would sh!t my pants, hat or no hat!
Re: my assessment of other countries, upon re-reading I can see that it comes across as very block headed, but I was more being facetious to support my point. I won't edit it as you have quoted it anyway, but I can see that it comes across badly.
Winters100
Well-Known Member
Why do people say that adults should do something to show an example to children? I have never got this one. On a daily basis my children see adults doing all sorts of things that they are not allowed to do, smoking, drinking, driving cars to mention just a few, it is my responsibility to ensure that they follow whatever rules their Father and I set. They also see us doing things that we do not allow them to do, for example having a glass of wine. It is absolutely not the responsibility of anyone else to demonstrate to my children what they may or may not do, and likewise it is not my responsibility to act as an example to other people's children.
teapot
Well-Known Member
HPA brought the rule in 2018 re PAS standard hats as a minimum. Grooms wearing hats comes down to ‘suitable PPE’ I think is how they word it.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
It was more a run away from a bear(s) than a run in............No worries re the "other countries" remarks, it gave me a chuckle.I am absolutely not doubting your skill or experience, but I firmly believe that you can be as careful as you like but a huge portion of the outcome relies solely on luck. Especially when the reliance is on a prey animal with a mind of its own. In all honesty if I had a run in with a bear I would sh!t my pants, hat or no hat!
Re: my assessment of other countries, upon re-reading I can see that it comes across as very block headed, but I was more being facetious to support my point. I won't edit it as you have quoted it anyway, but I can see that it comes across badly.
Of course luck plays a role, as in all things in life, of course if you're worried about falling off on your head you will wear a hat. Perhaps the messaging in the UK is more persistent than in other places, perhaps you are more risk-averse. At any rate, it all goes to prove that advertising works, and other places are more laid back.
The UK has been very pushy about imposing their point of view on other people though, and are responsible for the imposition of mandatory wearing of helmets in dressage competition. I believe they should mind their own business.
teapot
Well-Known Member
Or that insurance dictates a lot more.
SibeliusMB
Well-Known Member
This is the best post in the thread! Neither side is going to "win" this argument or convince the other. Seen this a million times on many other forums at it's always the same. Adults can make their own choices.
That said, I hope those choosing not to wear hats don't live by the "well I don't fall on my head so it's fine" line of logic. I always wear a hat; I've had multiple concussions from falls and none of them were "on" my head. Most brain injuries happen from rotational type forces, ie. a quick fall off the horse's shoulder, falling on your back, etc that creates quick movement/quick stops of the brain within the skull and creates micro tears and bleeds/bruising in the brain tissue. That is why the introduction of the MIPS technology, while woefully far behind other sports, is so important in the horse world. It reduces those torsional forces on the brain in addition to the standard impact forces that we think of with the usual hard shell/foams in conventional helmets. So if you don't wear a hat because that's your preference, that's cool, just don't trick yourself into believing faulty logic/reasoning.
I do agree on the observation of riding style/culture here in the UK and the correlation to hat (and body protector) use. I've seen many, many lovely and extremely well-educated riders here, but also seen many "rough and ready" types that were quite frankly riding and jumping above their ability level. I think where people are more independent here and rely less on training programs or regular lessons there can be a lack of foundation, which creates potential safety issues down the road. If they are more likely to embrace safety measures like hats and BPs, then good on them. In the US, I'd say most of those riders lacking foundational skills would be stuck in our perpetual 2'6" level hell-loop...though we do have our fair share of people flying around the bigger divisions scaring everyone around them. And thanks to hat regulations at competitions and insurance requirements most jumping barns/training programs in the US insist on certified hats at all times, even for flatwork. Dressage programs were quite behind in embracing helmets, but after a few high-profile brain injuries, seems to be catching up.
Now, there are large contingents in North America that don't use hats, I'm thinking primarily of the Western disciplines, ranchers/working types, and recreational riders who simply didn't grow up with them. That said, most of those guys are mounted on those QH types who are bred to be more mellow and are usually SUPER broke. From a risk perspective, the only Western discipline that really scares me with the lack of hat use is barrel racing. Even then, some barrel racers (ie. Fallon Taylor) are wearing hats and trying to promote them in that discipline, or at least help reduce the stigma "against" helmets.
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criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
I think it depends a little where you are in Spain and the type of establishment. I've ridden in non touristy areas so not thinking about UK expectations and at places that are not dressage based. More men ride and there's a definite emphasis on going fast. One of my uncles had a horse and he used to ride out and gallop.
I remember being put on a horse that they joked had come back twice without her rider and as a child on a very sharp horse, I think because he was too small for any of the men.
Alot of riding was along the lines of getting chatting to someone who had a horse or two and offering me a ride.
I did feel more secure in the Spanish saddles though.
Schollym
Well-Known Member
I have ridden without a hat but wouldn’t dream of it now, my daughter was riding a young horse ( she had ridden many times before) that started to be difficult and reared up and went over backwards with my daughter still on boar, through the school fence. My daughters head missed a piece of concrete by a few centimetres. The horse got up narrowly missing her head when flailing about. My daughter was more or less ok, a chiropractor happened to be on the yard and manipulated her jaw and shoulder. She was badly stung as was the horse. The inside cushioning of her hat was badly squashed so had absorbed the impact.
Barton Bounty
Just simply loving life with Orbi 🥰
I always wear a hat riding, just in case… I dont wear one leading… but this is a picture of my friend who was at work leading two 18.2 percherons when one got buzzed my the electric fence, knocked her over and stamped on her head! Intensive care for days and didnt work for 2 months at least
Attachments
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
It really, really is nobody's business but the owner of the head (or someone connected who could be sued) what an adult head's got on it ?
ETA just in case anyone is confused, I never ride without a hat and an air jacket, AND I have been in an accident which would probably have killed me without a hat, but I still know it's none of my business what other adults do with their heads.
ETA just in case anyone is confused, I never ride without a hat and an air jacket, AND I have been in an accident which would probably have killed me without a hat, but I still know it's none of my business what other adults do with their heads.
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JBM
Well-Known Member
I ride my 21 year old semi retired helmet or no helmet I don’t really mind
Would I ever sit on my 5 year old tb without a helmet? Not a chance in hell
Would I ever sit on my 5 year old tb without a helmet? Not a chance in hell