PETA calls for eventing to be banned

[Alec Swan]

Whatever the opinions, I really don't like it when people say horses can "love" something they do. How on earth are we to know?

Would they do a full course on their own if we let them loose on Badminton grounds? Would they still run without a rider at Ascot?

Please, don't anthropomorphise horses like that. Or any animal.

Just because they don't protest, doesn't mean they dream about hurling themselves over two L200's each night.

I know we say "he loves carrots"... I can believe that. I just don't believe a horse LOVES eventing.

I think my horse prefers jumping to flatwork because his attitude changes but I don't think he "loves" it. I think the case is that the owner loves eventing and likes the fact that the horse seems willing to do as is asked.

The theme behind your statements can't be dismissed, I accept that, but if we follow your argument to it's logical conclusion, then I could ask you if your horse lies down so that you can mount to facilitate your flat-work; the simple fact is that they don't have voice-able opinions. I could ask you if your horse actually enjoys being ridden in a school. I could ask you, for that matter, if your horse enjoys being schooled, and the simple answer is that we don't know.

We can only judge a horse's enjoyment, or lack of it by the animal's reaction to what we ask. If a horse is programmed to perform a certain task, and it does so without too much resistance, then we may fairly claim that it enjoys itself.

I've seen very few horses that didn't "appear" to enjoy hunting, some perhaps more than is comfortable!, but generally at the sound of hounds, and the prospect of a good gallop, it's only the seriously elderly who aren't so willing.

I don't actually think that horses display any degree of intelligence or opinion, I suspect that as our servants, they pretty much go along with what we want. How we feel about what we do is up to the individual, and Society's demands!

Alec.

 

[fburton]

I think polo should be banned, without a doubt.

Polo horses love their job or else they wouldn't do it?? (I'm sure they don't love getting injured, of course, but that's the risk you take when you do sport.)

 

[tristar]

all these debates about banning sports pose, for me ,the question, what are horses for? why do they exist and why did they come about through the process of evolution and selective breeding, or in other words they can
offer us so much, and are they just about sport and exploitation?

someone said a while ago about a well known event rider's distress at their horse being killed while competing, 'they had killed the horse because those jumps are barbaric,' it's gone round in my head ever since

 

[pip6]

Personally can't abide polo. Spent years at a livery yard that overwintered them (& personally found rugs for those that weren't coping-owners/yards never supplied any for their 'adored' animals) & took in broken ones for rehab. Owners always appeared first few days swearing do anything their one of the family, never to be seen again. Few months later when fixed Arge grooms appeared, started hitting them, beating them up if they moved a foot. All were terrified & headshy when they arrived. One poor soul, Francesca, had 7 bone chips in her leg from match injury. Vet wanted pts, owner said he'd pay for anything, save her, she's one of the family, look i've bought her a stable rug to wear whilst recuperating, she'll be our lawn mower at home, just save her etc. We did manage to save her, went down one day (bearing in mind this horse was still on box rest, not even field sound yet), to find owner had sent groom to get her so he could play arena polo on her that winter (was autumn time). Like on of the family, really? Poor family.

Hope PETA have thought what to do when all the free running herbivores get hungrey & eat their veggies.

 

[Anglebracket]

Polo horses love their job or else they wouldn't do it?? (I'm sure they don't love getting injured, of course, but that's the risk you take when you do sport.)

Regardless of whether they love an activity or not horses are incapable of risk assessment. We take responsibility for their welfare and make decisions about the risks we expose them to. Where the line is drawn is different for each individual.

Peta's views are evidently quite extreme. However, as long as they don't sabotage events or break any laws they are entitled to them. Just as some of the commentators on here are entitled to their belief that Peta is bonkers.

 

[tallyho!]

The theme behind your statements can't be dismissed, I accept that, but if we follow your argument to it's logical conclusion, then I could ask you if your horse lies down so that you can mount to facilitate your flat-work; the simple fact is that they don't have voice-able opinions. I could ask you if your horse actually enjoys being ridden in a school. I could ask you, for that matter, if your horse enjoys being schooled, and the simple answer is that we don't know.

We can only judge a horse's enjoyment, or lack of it by the animal's reaction to what we ask. If a horse is programmed to perform a certain task, and it does so without too much resistance, then we may fairly claim that it enjoys itself.

I've seen very few horses that didn't "appear" to enjoy hunting, some perhaps more than is comfortable!, but generally at the sound of hounds, and the prospect of a good gallop, it's only the seriously elderly who aren't so willing.

I don't actually think that horses display any degree of intelligence or opinion, I suspect that as our servants, they pretty much go along with what we want. How we feel about what we do is up to the individual, and Society's demands!

Alec.

Well, yes! Exactly!

So to say "horses LOVE eventing!!" Or "he LOVES to race" is quite wrong as we don't know if they do or not. They do our bidding with skill or not, that's all.

Sadly no, my horse does not lie down so I can hop on... He does not love me!! *wails*

Perhaps it's something we can "work" on

 

[tallyho!]

all these debates about banning sports pose, for me ,the question, what are horses for? why do they exist and why did they come about through the process of evolution and selective breeding, or in other words they can
offer us so much, and are they just about sport and exploitation?

someone said a while ago about a well known event rider's distress at their horse being killed while competing, 'they had killed the horse because those jumps are barbaric,' it's gone round in my head ever since

Well, you know, it's a good question... I often ask humans are for...???

 

[fburton]

So to say "horses LOVE eventing!!" Or "he LOVES to race" is quite wrong as we don't know if they do or not. They do our bidding with skill or not, that's all.

Sadly no, my horse does not lie down so I can hop on... He does not love me!! *wails*

Some people have trained horses to do just that. Videos of people getting their horses to do amazing and impressive things seemingly willingly can be found on YouTube. A common response is "What a wonderful relationship they have!". However, one could also say the horses were simply very well trained! It may be that the willingness isn't a result of the relationship, and using that word is just another way for people to feel good about the way we use horses?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

At the end of the day no one will ever agree as to what horses should and shouldn't do, what they love, what they don't, what is acceptable risk, what is not etc.

Personally I don't like eventing due to the toll on human life. I can accept the risk to horses - owner/riders choice - if the horse is injured/killed then it's the rider/owners fault for not doing a good enough job of preparing the horse.

PETA is OTT and it's their job to get people riled up and paying attention to them - even bad publicity is still publicity at the end of the day!

 

[JackAT]

Pathetic Eventing Tarnishers Association. (On the spot, best I could do )

There's far more cases of actual cruelty that deserve more attention from the public to correct!

 

[teapot]

Peta's ridiculous aside; I am surprised polo hasn't been a target for animal rights people. I knew someone that had a gap year job at a polo yard & she said they took some of the ponies' molars out to facilitate the use of gags. Just look at the hardware in the poor b......s mouths & martingales as well. All that stopping from a gallop must put a terrific strain on the tendons.
Why does this not get attacked where racing, eventing etc do is simple; no TV coverage.

The wearing of martingales is in the HPA rules if I remember rightly and gags rely more on pressure than what's in the mouth (a cheltenham gag is quite basic in the middle!)

Like any horse sport there are bad stories so don't tar them all. The yard I learnt in had ponies in good condition and I had every bit of kit explained to me before I even got on.

I think polo should be banned, without a doubt.

Horrendous 'sport'.

Speaking from experience or just a hatred?

 

[rachyblue]

Regardless of whether they love an activity or not horses are incapable of risk assessment.

I disagree there - a horse will look at something scary and decide whether to run or have a closer look or attack it

 

[Moomin1]

Polo horses love their job or else they wouldn't do it?? (I'm sure they don't love getting injured, of course, but that's the risk you take when you do sport.)

That's like saying that horses which happily walk into the slaughterhouse 'want' to die, otherwise they wouldn't walk in there. Or the diving shetlands must love to jump off the board and plummet into the pool below, or dressage horses must love rollkur...the list goes on....

 

[Honeylight]

The wearing of martingales is in the HPA rules if I remember rightly and gags rely more on pressure than what's in the mouth (a cheltenham gag is quite basic in the middle!)

Like any horse sport there are bad stories so don't tar them all. The yard I learnt in had ponies in good condition and I had every bit of kit explained to me before I even got on.



Speaking from experience or just a hatred?

I admit it is a sport I don't know an awful lot about. I always thought a gag was a very severe bit & especially when combined with a curb & draw reins. Can you enlighten?

 

[Anglebracket]

I disagree there - a horse will look at something scary and decide whether to run or have a closer look or attack it

Very true. However, I meant a more complex form of risk assessment that goes beyond the here and now.

 

[teapot]

I admit it is a sport I don't know an awful lot about. I always thought a gag was a very severe bit & especially when combined with a curb & draw reins. Can you enlighten?

Polo isn't played in draw reins for one! Certainly the ponies I rode had two sets of reins on a cheltenham gag with standing martingale and you only needed the lightest of touches. A gag is severe bit but only in the wrong hands. It's the hands that make any bit severe. Others I rode were in pelhams with two reins.

As an aside, most people who ride in a cheltenham gag normally tend to only use the one rein and use the second reins attached to the rope cheek pieces when needed and thus gain the effect of the gag part of it.

 

[harveysmom]

Have they not heard the proverb "you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink"
Horses only do it because they want to. there isnt a person alive that can force a horse to do anything
Do you think they can get work banned as its cruel to humans, then we can all spend as much time as we like at the stables

 

[orionstar]

All I can say Is, no one from peta has seen me attempt to give my horse a worming suringe. I use the words attempt loosely. Also no one from peta has seen a strange man attempt to pick her back feet up. If they have seen her walk past the log splitter at full blast or the OH in chainsaw mode, I'd be very proud. Horses have a verrrrry long memory, some are slightly slower than others to pick up on nasty situations, but most will throw in the towel the minute they dislike something!

 

[tallyho!]

Have they not heard the proverb "you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink"
Horses only do it because they want to. there isnt a person alive that can force a horse to do anything
Do you think they can get work banned as its cruel to humans, then we can all spend as much time as we like at the stables

Wrong and possibly a silly analogy to use here... Horses do it because they have been trained to and have been conditioned to have no fear of whatever it is they are being asked to do therefore see no threat.

Force is a huge part of training whether you can see that or not. A horse naturally chooses that path of least resistance when given a choice.

How do you think we even manage to halter train foals and young horses? I have never yet seen a weanling "WANT" to wear a headcollar or be led for the first time... but they all do it eventually.

 

[Freddie19]

Here we go again, soft target.....what really makes me so angry, is that these organisations such as PETA and the RSPCA make loud noises about sports usually done by "mostly" law-abiding citizens and yet, and yes I do have personally knowledge of this: report somone you suspect of DOG-FIGHTING to them and they run for the hills. We all know that this is a real and on going problem, but how many times, yes how many times do we see this being tackled by these organisations. It makes me so mad, yes I appreciate that the people who are involved in this cruel, inhumane disgusting fighting are usually out and out thugs, also usually involved in drugs etc, but please please bring in the police and lets sort them out. I feel so sorry for the staff who work on the ground for the above organisations, pretty much like the nurses and doctors in the A&E depts who are there on the front line, whilst their overpaid, undercaring desk jockey managers work their nice little 9 to 5 jobs for pay and pensions that the staff can only dream about.... lets stop beating about the bush, and really get set into the real problems. I vote in every election be it local or general election and have done for 48 years, do I feel I have wasted my time? yes....why....because we are losing control of our country.....

 

[Jinx94]

That's like saying that horses which happily walk into the slaughterhouse 'want' to die, otherwise they wouldn't walk in there. Or the diving shetlands must love to jump off the board and plummet into the pool below, or dressage horses must love rollkur...the list goes on....

A horse naturally chooses that path of least resistance when given a choice.

When I was clearing out our tack room the other week, I brought out all of the polo kit that's been sat in the corner gathering dust for the last couple of years (I look after two ex polo ponies). Both had come trotting over when I arrived, but had gone off to munch the grass when I didn't bring them in immediately. The moment they clocked the gear, they shot over to the fence, snorting and whickering, ears pricked, then neighed and stood there a while longer once I'd put it back.

I didn't offer them a choice. But it was pretty obvious that they love the game.

 

[tallyho!]

When I was clearing out our tack room the other week, I brought out all of the polo kit that's been sat in the corner gathering dust for the last couple of years (I look after two ex polo ponies). Both had come trotting over when I arrived, but had gone off to munch the grass when I didn't bring them in immediately. The moment they clocked the gear, they shot over to the fence, snorting and whickering, ears pricked, then neighed and stood there a while longer once I'd put it back.

I didn't offer them a choice. But it was pretty obvious that they love the game.

That's your proof?

 

[Jinx94]

Horses aren't stupid. If they hated being ridden when the rider is carrying a mallet and sending them chasing after a ball, they aren't going to have a positive reaction to those items.

 

[fburton]

That's like saying that horses which happily walk into the slaughterhouse 'want' to die, otherwise they wouldn't walk in there. Or the diving shetlands must love to jump off the board and plummet into the pool below, or dressage horses must love rollkur...the list goes on....

I was being sarcastic, as is my wont when I'm irritated by things people say. The "love" argument is pretty dodgy, in my opinion. It reeks faintly of anthropomorphism. That's not to say there aren't things that horses get pleasure from doing, but a horse doing something without resistance, or even energetically, doesn't necessarily mean they love doing it - at least, not as much something they would choose to do themselves unbidden. So desire to perform an action can be gauged by seeing how enthusiastically it is done without outside pressure or prompting. If you set up a course of fences in a horse's field and routinely saw them being jumped, then you might be justified in believing true love of the activity - doing it for the pleasure it gives the horse.

Horses aren't stupid. If they hated being ridden when the rider is carrying a mallet and sending them chasing after a ball, they aren't going to have a positive reaction to those items.

It doesn't have to be so black and white - if not love then hate. A horse can be trained to perform obediently, one way or another, and may end up being entirely happy to follow instruction within its atheltic capabilities. Or they may acquiesce with a degree of reluctance. Shades of grey! Neither of these responses constitute love.

It's not a big deal when people say their horses love to do something when the horse is merely content to comply. It only becomes a problem (for me anyway) when this fictitious/imagined "love" is used as counter-balance against something deleterious, as a way to justify a particular use of horses.

Horses only do it because they want to. there isnt a person alive that can force a horse to do anything

I'm sorry, that simply isn't true. I've seen force used to do all sorts of things with/to horses - loading, maintaining uncomfortable positions, going through water, having teeth rasped - the list is potentially very long!

 

[pip6]

With regard to polo I had no opinion on it prior to going to this livery yard.

I think what summed up to owner attitude to me (not all I grant you, there were 2 lovely owners who came every weekend over the winter to see their horses & always made sure they had rugs if needed) was a guy going out with a lady on the yard. He was very wealthy, having his own polo yard & string. He was sat with us having a cup of tea/coffee, waiting for his partner & we started to ask him about his polo (which he clearly enjoyed immensely). He was proud of the fact he didn't know the names of any of the ponies in his string, & referred to them as motorbikes with legs. He used the 'motorbike' analogy several times, saying he didn't have any feelings for his horses, they were just motorbikes to chase the ball. If one broke, he just bought another.

I find it hard to like a sport with the side of seen of running a broken pony into the ground in arena polo so the owner can have a bit of fun over the winter, the injuries they came with were horrendous, they where terrified of being beaten up, the ponies were dumped over the winter without a second thought.

Even the nice owners admitted they were the exception, most didn't give a monkeys about the ponies.

As an aside, one of the polo yards dumped a 12hh pony (not polo) with us one summer suffering with laminitis, with orders to get it shot. My friends daughter asked to take it on & try to save it (bones hadn't rotated), which they okay'd. She spent months getting the pony right, & they adored each other. Stayed for a 18 months, then owner (who had wanted it shot) had row with YO about unpaid livery bills, so turned up one day & took her horses including pony. Later that year when YO went to polo yard to collect an injured horse for rehab, they saw they pony (by now about 20 years old), in a tiny pen constructed on corner of concrete yard. While they were there they saw the Arge grooms ride it, belting it about the place as a joke. It looked miserable, terrified & lame. IT so upset them having to leaave the pony in that situation, when before she had been in excellent shape, enjoying life with her young loaner.

I just can't like polo.

 

[casio]

Wrong and possibly a silly analogy to use here... Horses do it because they have been trained to and have been conditioned to have no fear of whatever it is they are being asked to do therefore see no threat.

Force is a huge part of training whether you can see that or not. A horse naturally chooses that path of least resistance when given a choice.

How do you think we even manage to halter train foals and young horses? I have never yet seen a weanling "WANT" to wear a headcollar or be led for the first time... but they all do it eventually.

Regardless of your opinions on polo, it is obvious when a horse enjoys doing something, and nobody with any sense would force a horse to pursue a discipline they didn't enjoy as they simply will not do well in it, regardless of ability.

Any polo pony competing in high goal will love their job. They understand the game, and they follow the ball, and will actually place you next to it if they're good enough.

In high goal a pony will frequently only get played for about 3 minutes at a time.

I'm affiliated to BS as well as the HPA (polo equivalent) and there are so many more tack specific rules in polo than there are in show jumping (can't comment on BE, as I don't do it) and the implementation of rules is so much stricter. If there's something not right with a pony, then it will be marked and will not be able to play again for the rest of the day.

As for saying horses have no concept of risk, that's just ridiculous.

As with all sports there are good and bad. Any polo yard I've ever been on have looked after their horses incredibly well and basing opinions on a whole sport based on a few uninformed experiences would be similar to me saying dressage should be banned just because a minority use rollkur.

 

[Antw23uk]

Good 'ol PETA. Always finding something to ban! Having been a reptile keeper for many years I'm well used to the drivel they come out with so this 'ban eventing' drivel doesnt surprise me in the least!

 

[Farma]

I was being sarcastic, as is my wont when I'm irritated by things people say. The "love" argument is pretty dodgy, in my opinion. It reeks faintly of anthropomorphism. That's not to say there aren't things that horses get pleasure from doing, but a horse doing something without resistance, or even energetically, doesn't necessarily mean they love doing it - at least, not as much something they would choose to do themselves unbidden. So desire to perform an action can be gauged by seeing how enthusiastically it is done without outside pressure or prompting. If you set up a course of fences in a horse's field and routinely saw them being jumped, then you might be justified in believing true love of the activity - doing it for the pleasure it gives the horse.


It doesn't have to be so black and white - if not love then hate. A horse can be trained to perform obediently, one way or another, and may end up being entirely happy to follow instruction within its atheltic capabilities. Or they may acquiesce with a degree of reluctance. Shades of grey! Neither of these responses constitute love.

It's not a big deal when people say their horses love to do something when the horse is merely content to comply. It only becomes a problem (for me anyway) when this fictitious/imagined "love" is used as counter-balance against something deleterious, as a way to justify a particular use of horses.


I'm sorry, that simply isn't true. I've seen force used to do all sorts of things with/to horses - loading, maintaining uncomfortable positions, going through water, having teeth rasped - the list is potentially very long!

I totally agree with this!¬

 

[Molly'sMama]

I misread the title of this thread,and for a split-second thought it said

PETA calls for everything to be banned!

In truth ,it is probably apt xD

 

[MrsB]

Maybe they should take a closer look at Appleby Horse Fair, where I saw a picture of a 10 month old foal pulling some idiot on a cart. That is abuse and stuff like that should be stopped. Have they piped up about the Grand National?

Idiots....