Petition to ban horse slaughter in the UK.

cptrayes said:
But they need the numbers that they breed to fill the number of slots for racing for people to bet on. That's how the whole industry works. They aren't surplus to requirements when they are born.

Unless they are deformed, damaged or ill, they aren't killed until after they have proved that they aren't fast enough to win. Until then, they race, and when they are killed their places are taken by the next batch of two year olds.
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Totally agree with this post, its why there needd to be a humane method of disposal through UK slaughterhouses as there is just too many to retrain.
 
I was informed by someone in the racing world that filly foals in the UK were disposed of 2 years ago as too many were bred. I am also informed (by someone who has witnessed it) that in NZ foals are regularly shot before they get anywhere near racing. These are ones that people with a trained eye have looked at and presumed they will not be good enough.

Another point that needs to be made about the racing world is the input it has into lameness\illness treatment, cure and prevention.

There are many plus points to racing but there are also many down sides.

To say that young flat horses live the life of pampered luxury untill they are shot if they are not fast enough, in my experience, is simply not true. Especially on the bigger yards. It is a business and is run as such.
 
To say that young flat horses live the life of pampered luxury untill they are shot if they are not fast enough, in my experience, is simply not true. Especially on the bigger yards. It is a business and is run as such.
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Thanks for pointing this out, Allover.

The saddest sector which overproduction occurs in my opinion is the moorland ponies. A thousand unwanted Dartmoor ponies have been culled in the past year. In any year only 20% of foals are ever sold as riding ponies, the rest probably end up being slaughtered in Italy.

So yes, the overproduction of horses is the problem, but to solve this will be impossible unless the owners of racehorses come on board. Though, as these predominantly very wealthy will be asked to sort out the fall out of their hobby which causes so much misery for their rejects little or nothing will be done.

The result is the clearing up by slaughterhouses if the horses are lucky, or live export by low class dealers.
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This is very, very sad. Who are these dealers who export the ponies to Italy? It's such a long way--are they doing it on a mass scale to make it economical for them? Is the live transport of animals not regulated in any way in the EU?

I do agree that live animal transport and overbreeding are part of the whole, complex problem. You can't just address slaughter alone but have to look at the bigger picture.


I think Brigantia has said the most educated, balanced post on here so far - address the breeding industry - particularly the TB racing industry.
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Thank you Hollyhocks and Friesan80! :)

And thank you to AndySpooner and Allover for your intelligent commentary.
 
Allover said:
Another point that needs to be made about the racing world is the input it has into lameness\illness treatment, cure and prevention.

There are many plus points to racing but there are also many down sides.

To say that young flat horses live the life of pampered luxury untill they are shot if they are not fast enough, in my experience, is simply not true. Especially on the bigger yards. It is a business and is run as such.
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Here here. Most of the research done on horses full stop is funded by either the race industry or meat, or milk industries.

I'm glad that there are yards who treat them well, but for an awful lot of others they are part of a production line. And remember, what constitutes luxury to a human isn't to a horse. A horse's idea of luxury living would probably be 24/7 living in a huge field with decent hedgerows and nice muddy patches to roll in, not spending hours in a stable with a nice big bed and meal fed.
 
Naturally said:
What I want to know is, how is it cost effective to transport a horse abroad for slaughter?

When we have a slaughterhouse at either end of the country (-ish) why would anyone pay a ferry fee and all that diesel to take a horse out of the UK to slaughter, when those who do so must only be doing it for business?
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Several points.

There are queues for the current abattoirs in the UK, and horses need to be booked in. One of the dealers who trades from abroad had 140+ horses go through a UK abattoir in 4 months. That's ONE dealer.

When a dealer goes abroad to pick up horses, he may as well load the lorry with horses from his yard that cannot immediately be booked in a UK abattoir (or perhaps he's exceeded his quota, I have no idea if they have one, but I can't imagine one dealer would be allowed to dominate the numbers of horses going through), and trade them with the European dealers.

There is also no need for records of these foreign transactions, unlike the animals sent to the UK abattoirs who have to declare every carcass, and where they came from, so are thereby traceable by the IR.

The horses imported from the groupage abattoir queues (for meat money) are then resold in the UK as smart well bred sports horses for a few grand, with their issues hidden by whatever means dealers use to hide them in the short term. The horses exported pay the ferry fees, diesel and trade off for the purchases plus perhaps a bit more spare cash in the back pocket.
 
Naturally said:
What I want to know is, how is it cost effective to transport a horse abroad for slaughter?
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It shouldn't be, there are minumum values in place to stop it, also under threat from the EU !

http://www.happa.org.uk/export.asp



In my earlier comment about whether a racehorse would choose to be alive for three years or not alive at all, I define "pampered luxury" for any prey animal as "to be safe from predators and have enough to eat". Don't lose the point in argument over a detail. Ask a foetus if it wants three years of the life of a racehorse or no life at all, and it will choose life.

The import of horses for killing is clearly wrong (and I question why on earth it is necessary for a dealer to travel, with so many useless horses in this country), but you are a lot less likely to have any issues with a horse which has been bought for meat from a country where they are routinely bred for meat than you are with a horse which has been bought for meat at a local British horse auction. There is every reason why the British horse has issues and none whatsoever why the meat bred one should have any.
 
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cptrayes said:
In my earlier comment about whether a racehorse would choose to be alive for three years or not alive at all, I define "pampered luxury" for any prey animal as "to be safe from predators and have enough to eat". Don't lose the point in argument over a detail. Ask a foetus if it wants three years of the life of a racehorse or no life at all, and it will choose life.

.
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Will it?!!!!

Maybe if the questions you asked them whether they would like to be made to run before they could walk, have physical and mental "issues" from working too hard too young, fed on a diet that is completely unnatural for their systems, lose the chance to have friends and play and live in a box 23 hours a day to come out for an hour to run about and, if you are lucky, have a roll, would they then answer a big fat yes to the question?
 
cptrayes said:
It shouldn't be, there are minumum values in place to stop it, also under threat from the EU !

http://www.happa.org.uk/export.asp

The import of horses for killing is clearly wrong (and I question why on earth it is necessary for a dealer to travel, with so many useless horses in this country)
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The minimum values no longer exist (or so I've been informed) - it's not legal, apparently, under the EU regs for free trade.

Also, I don't know if your remark about importing for slaughter was in response to what I wrote, but if so, I'd just like to clarify that the imported horses are dressed up and sold on as sports horses, not imported principally for slaughter. Although given the reasons most of them were in the groupage for abattoir yards in the first instance, it's no great assumption to realise the likelihood is that's where they'll end up sooner rather than later. :(
 
One of the dealers who trades from abroad had 140+ horses go through a UK abattoir in 4 months. That's ONE dealer.
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So some dealers specialise in importing/exporting horses for slaughter. I wish we could publish their names here for the sake of absolute transparency.
 
brigantia said:
So some dealers specialise in importing/exporting horses for slaughter. I wish we could publish their names here for the sake of absolute transparency.
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More than some - lots of the southern England dealers do it. Most have been mentioned at one time or another on here, although some haven't.

Names can't be published, as the thread will be pulled, even though the information is out there if you look for it.
 
cptrayes said:
Ask a foetus if it wants three years of the life of a racehorse or no life at all, and it will choose life.
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The foetus shouldn`t exist in the first place to be "ASKED". The only solution is to reduce breeding numbers. Then we wouldnt need to use slaughter houses. At the moment they are essential.
 
cptrayes said:
It shouldn't be, there are minumum values in place to stop it, also under threat from the EU !

http://www.happa.org.uk/export.asp



In my earlier comment about whether a racehorse would choose to be alive for three years or not alive at all, I define "pampered luxury" for any prey animal as "to be safe from predators and have enough to eat". Don't lose the point in argument over a detail. Ask a foetus if it wants three years of the life of a racehorse or no life at all, and it will choose life.

The import of horses for killing is clearly wrong (and I question why on earth it is necessary for a dealer to travel, with so many useless horses in this country), but you are a lot less likely to have any issues with a horse which has been bought for meat from a country where they are routinely bred for meat than you are with a horse which has been bought for meat at a local British horse auction. There is every reason why the British horse has issues and none whatsoever why the meat bred one should have any.
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Thanks CPTrays and Changes for answering my question, even if the answer made me very :( .

I see your point in not losing the arguement over the detail, but I actually think its a pretty important point to the whole topic. I don't want us to dwell on what a fetus would choose, because we can't ask it and we can't possibly know what its response would be. Racehorses in general often lead a highly stressful life which horses were not evolved to, and haven't had time to adapt (in evolutionary terms) to. That's why any intensively managed horse yard has a higher than average number of stress-related problems such as ulcers and stereotypies.

I make the point only because I feel that racing needs a massive overhaul, which includes addressing the fact that the lifestyle and early death of so many horses is an ethical problem, which should be addressed.

Until then, of course slaughterhouses in the UK provide a humane solution to disposal of the vast quantities of wastage.
 
AndySpooner said:
I don't think the value of culled racehorses is the issue. Owning racehorses is a fairly loss making pastime I imagine, but it would be creditable if these people put some money into rehabilitation. The real problem is too many unwanted horses .
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I read somewhere that the "Racing industry" as such does put money in to rehabilitation, however it amounts to only 250.000 pounds a year, which to their own calculations would rehabilitate around 90 horses, a mere drop in the ocean......
 
I think even she might have admitted defeat with some of the idiots on there. Some seem to be turning round though.
 
I make the point only because I feel that racing needs a massive overhaul, which includes addressing the fact that the lifestyle and early death of so many horses is an ethical problem, which should be addressed.

Until then, of course slaughterhouses in the UK provide a humane solution to disposal of the vast quantities of wastage.
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This is just so sad. I would love to see more investigative journalism here.
 
Whilst I don't disagree about the wastage in racing, it is NOT the only culprit.
Racing is totally transparent - every mare covered is recorded, every foal born is registered and microchipped, and their career is reported right up until they come out of training.

That doesn't happen with ANY other section of the horse world. Until the same records are available for every horse, it is wrong to lay the blame for the malaise of the horse industry at racing's door. Racing is not alone in confining horses to stables without turnout - nor chucking them out when they are unwanted.
That said, I would dearly like to see the BHA take a more active part in what happens to horses after racing, as I would every competitive body.

I don't understand why there are no outcries about what happens to dressage horses that are no good, or showjumpers, or the older horse whose rider aspires to more than that horse can now give. And make no mistake, this forum and HHO adverts are riddled with people selling on horses for those reasons. Yet these very same are those that are outraged about how dreadful racing is.

It's very easy to lay blame when there are statisitics to work from, as in racing. But it is very wrong when other sections of the horse world who have never recorded their breeding or performance figures then escape scrutiny or a call to step up to the mark welfare wise.

As this thread is about slaughter, but seemingly having the TB industry take the flak, I'd like to show how the rest of the equine population has to be considered equally culpable.

From a BHA report - In 2006, out of the 7,590 horses taken out of training, this is what happened to them;
Exported 1168
Racing in IRE & C. Islands 209
Point to Point (GB) 703
Point to Point (IRE) 40
Sport Horse/Recreation 582
Retired to Stud 1446
Reported Dead 852
Whereabouts Unknown 2404
Sold at Auction - no further records 186

So, from this, the max number (by adding the last three in the column) that could have gone for slaughter is 3,442. The likelihood is much lower, however, as the 'reported dead' will include horses that have died on the track, or on the gallops, or from colic, or been PTS for injury.
The whereabouts 'unknown' is exactly that - and could well include a lot of horses that are just given to good homes. I've had 2 TBs that fit that bill, and they were never a slaughter statistic.

Given that the year this report was published, over 20,000 horses were slaughtered in the UK, I hope it puts racing more into perspective.
 
YorksG said:
Why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to want to end slaughter of horses in the UK? What do people think would happen to the unwanted horses if horse slaughter was banned? Do people want to see the equivalent of the horrenous journeys and subsequent vile deaths experienced by horse from the USA, travelling to Mexico and Canada?
I would rather see the small slaughter houses re-opened and no animal being travelled further than 50 miles from its last 'home'
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Totally agree....some people need thier heads testing. All these un wanted or ill horses will end up travelling hours and miles overseas to be killed, rather than quickly in the UK. We need loads more as there as far as i know only two registered in the uk, Potters and Turners.
Bl**dy bunny huggers don't have a clue about welfare of animals. They just see the surface. Poor pony going to slaughter house not what would happen to it if it didn't go there.
 
Changes said:
Whilst I don't disagree about the wastage in racing, it is NOT the only culprit.
Racing is totally transparent - every mare covered is recorded, every foal born is registered and microchipped, and their career is reported right up until they come out of training.

That doesn't happen with ANY other section of the horse world. Until the same records are available for every horse, it is wrong to lay the blame for the malaise of the horse industry at racing's door. Racing is not alone in confining horses to stables without turnout - nor chucking them out when they are unwanted.
That said, I would dearly like to see the BHA take a more active part in what happens to horses after racing, as I would every competitive body.

I don't understand why there are no outcries about what happens to dressage horses that are no good, or showjumpers, or the older horse whose rider aspires to more than that horse can now give. And make no mistake, this forum and HHO adverts are riddled with people selling on horses for those reasons. Yet these very same are those that are outraged about how dreadful racing is.

It's very easy to lay blame when there are statisitics to work from, as in racing. But it is very wrong when other sections of the horse world who have never recorded their breeding or performance figures then escape scrutiny or a call to step up to the mark welfare wise.

As this thread is about slaughter, but seemingly having the TB industry take the flak, I'd like to show how the rest of the equine population has to be considered equally culpable.

From a BHA report - In 2006, out of the 7,590 horses taken out of training, this is what happened to them;
Exported 1168
Racing in IRE & C. Islands 209
Point to Point (GB) 703
Point to Point (IRE) 40
Sport Horse/Recreation 582
Retired to Stud 1446
Reported Dead 852
Whereabouts Unknown 2404
Sold at Auction - no further records 186

So, from this, the max number (by adding the last three in the column) that could have gone for slaughter is 3,442. The likelihood is much lower, however, as the 'reported dead' will include horses that have died on the track, or on the gallops, or from colic, or been PTS for injury.
The whereabouts 'unknown' is exactly that - and could well include a lot of horses that are just given to good homes. I've had 2 TBs that fit that bill, and they were never a slaughter statistic.

Given that the year this report was published, over 20,000 horses were slaughtered in the UK, I hope it puts racing more into perspective.
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Yep, I'm just going to quote the whole lot, because I think it should be said again!
 
Changes said:
Whilst I don't disagree about the wastage in racing, it is NOT the only culprit.
Racing is totally transparent - every mare covered is recorded, every foal born is registered and microchipped, and their career is reported right up until they come out of training.

That doesn't happen with ANY other section of the horse world. Until the same records are available for every horse, it is wrong to lay the blame for the malaise of the horse industry at racing's door. Racing is not alone in confining horses to stables without turnout - nor chucking them out when they are unwanted.
That said, I would dearly like to see the BHA take a more active part in what happens to horses after racing, as I would every competitive body.

I don't understand why there are no outcries about what happens to dressage horses that are no good, or showjumpers, or the older horse whose rider aspires to more than that horse can now give. And make no mistake, this forum and HHO adverts are riddled with people selling on horses for those reasons. Yet these very same are those that are outraged about how dreadful racing is.

It's very easy to lay blame when there are statisitics to work from, as in racing. But it is very wrong when other sections of the horse world who have never recorded their breeding or performance figures then escape scrutiny or a call to step up to the mark welfare wise.

As this thread is about slaughter, but seemingly having the TB industry take the flak, I'd like to show how the rest of the equine population has to be considered equally culpable.

From a BHA report - In 2006, out of the 7,590 horses taken out of training, this is what happened to them;
Exported 1168
Racing in IRE & C. Islands 209
Point to Point (GB) 703
Point to Point (IRE) 40
Sport Horse/Recreation 582
Retired to Stud 1446
Reported Dead 852
Whereabouts Unknown 2404
Sold at Auction - no further records 186

So, from this, the max number (by adding the last three in the column) that could have gone for slaughter is 3,442. The likelihood is much lower, however, as the 'reported dead' will include horses that have died on the track, or on the gallops, or from colic, or been PTS for injury.
The whereabouts 'unknown' is exactly that - and could well include a lot of horses that are just given to good homes. I've had 2 TBs that fit that bill, and they were never a slaughter statistic.

Given that the year this report was published, over 20,000 horses were slaughtered in the UK, I hope it puts racing more into perspective.
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OK, I see your point and do agree with a lot of it, but how do you translate the exported figure? Do you see that as sold as private leisure horses abroad or the meat wagons?
 
jokadoka said:
OK, I see your point and do agree with a lot of it, but how do you translate the exported figure? Do you see that as sold as private leisure horses abroad or the meat wagons?
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The figure will cover horses sold to Europe, America, the Middle East, Australia, Japan etc to race or stand at stud. It is unlikely to cover the private registered horses as they will by then be out of racing, and only DEFRA need notification.

Exported in the BHA records means horses that have officially gone throught the Weatherbys system of exportation, which involves paying for a permanent export certificate (atm £117) and/or an END1 form to race. That will not be being paid for slaughter horses.
 
Holly Hocks said:
I think "dealer" is the wrong word - meat man or kill buyer would be more appropriate......
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They are not the 'kill buyers' as in America where they buy from the auctions simply to ship for meat.
But they are dealers, people on this forum have bought 'riding' horses from several of them. Some of them have decent quality horses as well as the ones with no future.
Horses are traded across the channel in large quantities and those that don't sell, or will never sell, go to slaughter.

It's the unfortunate underbelly of the 'leisure' horse industry.
 
Off topic a bit, but given the amount of petittions out there to get the two equine abattoirs closed down, I've created a FB group challenging peoples views and (trying) to explain the need we currently have for them.

I doubt it will be anywhere near as popular as the 'STOP horse slaughter' groups that have 100's of thousands of members as 'keep killing horses' doesn't sound so nice :rolleyes:
...but already a few people from the anti slaughter group have started asking questions...

have a 'butchers' :o

http://www.beta.facebook.com/pages/...the-UK-know-the-Facts/100760636676387?sk=wall
 
They are not the 'kill buyers' as in America where they buy from the auctions simply to ship for meat.
But they are dealers, people on this forum have bought 'riding' horses from several of them. Some of them have decent quality horses as well as the ones with no future.
Horses are traded across the channel in large quantities and those that don't sell, or will never sell, go to slaughter.

It's the unfortunate underbelly of the 'leisure' horse industry.
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Again I wish some brave investigative journalist would report on this. Probably few leisure riders are even aware of this side of the horse industry. And I think the public should be entitled to transparency so they can choose to avoid selling on to dealers who do sell horses to the slaughter industry.

This is why we need a Fugly Blog in the UK. Maybe after they change the libel laws! :rolleyes:

Changes, you're correct that we can't just scapegoat the racing industry. I think every individual owner has to take responsibility for their own horse and not sell it on to an uncertain future or an unvetted home. But that still leaves the problem of overbreeding that needs to be addressed . . .
 
I am in total agreement that overbreeding needs to be addressed. I'd qualify that by saying it needs addressing EVERYWHERE though. That goes right across the board from all the commercial breeders of sports horses, racehorses, show horses right down to those wanting to breed from their mare because she's there and they'd like a foal.

Stallions need to be licensed, and if considered unsuitable, mares should be forbidden to be bred from. All foals need to be registered with a single body, DNA tested, and if they cannot prove parentage then should not be allowed to compete.

The UK is a mess. I've just read that DEFRA are scrapping the single passport idea for the moment because of all the different Breed Societies wanting to
call the shots and not lose income.

There is no hope of restricting breeding when it is impossible to trace or monitor every horse bred.

When will people wake up and see the bigger picture?
 
brigantia said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_slaughter

According to the wisdom of Wikipedia, "UK law effectively forbids the export of live animals for slaughter." But the cited source of this information is a Daily Mail article . . .
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It is NOT illegal to export live animals for slaughter. It is not approved of, or condoned, but it's not illegal. Check with DEFRA if you like.
 
It is NOT illegal to export live animals for slaughter. It is not approved of, or condoned, but it's not illegal. Check with DEFRA if you like.
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Thanks for the info. I didn't quite trust The Daily Mail to be the unshakeable source of accuracy on this! :rolleyes:
 
Changes said:
I am in total agreement that overbreeding needs to be addressed. I'd qualify that by saying it needs addressing EVERYWHERE though. That goes right across the board from all the commercial breeders of sports horses, racehorses, show horses right down to those wanting to breed from their mare because she's there and they'd like a foal.

Stallions need to be licensed, and if considered unsuitable, mares should be forbidden to be bred from. All foals need to be registered with a single body, DNA tested, and if they cannot prove parentage then should not be allowed to compete.

The UK is a mess. I've just read that DEFRA are scrapping the single passport idea for the moment because of all the different Breed Societies wanting to
call the shots and not lose income.

There is no hope of restricting breeding when it is impossible to trace or monitor every horse bred.

When will people wake up and see the bigger picture?
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Totally agree, its easy to point the finger at the racing industry but its something that needs to be addressed to everyone in the UK, I often cringe at threads on forums where we are supposed to admire the fact their mare is in foal or they are looking for a stally to cover their mare when you know fine well they dont know the first thing about breeding , they just feel their mare is so fab they must have a foal from her. Or when ppl tell you to put your mare in foal to calm it down (ive been told this far too many times in regards to my Sec B). :rolleyes:
 
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