petition to make the Grand National safer

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People, I'm talking about using HORSES in bullfighting. Of course killing bulls in bull fighting is a whole different thing.

Mind you, isn't death nearly inevitable at the GN? :D
 
lassiesuca said:
Is Grand National not held at Aintree, which is the same course as the GN anyway...
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Please, if you care that much - do your homework - go and study the thing you hate the most.

There are loads of different types of race - types of jump, length of race, age of horse, sex of horse, handicap weights etc etc. Yes, the GN is run at Aintree - and all the races are over jumps - that is what happens at this time of year - but the jumps differ tremendously from race to race.

The GN is unique in the type of jumps and the length of course. The other "nationals" are nothing in comparison - they just bear part of the same name.
 
Wagtail said:
Lol. You do have a strange way of looking at things. Yes a pootle round the school is just as hard as running the National. I see where you are coming from now. ;)
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I’ve known it happen during a pootle round a school; halfway through a beginner’s lesson at a riding school I used to go to a young, fit, well looked after pony just keeled over with a heart attack with a 5yo kid riding him.

I’ve also known a horse break a leg in a stable overnight, god only knows how, & another that did the same tied on the yard when it tried to scratch an ear with a back leg & over balanced. The bottom line is they're fragile creatures & there's always a risk no matter what they're doing.

I don’t like horses dying at the national or anywhere else when they go before their time but I’m sure if I was one I’d rather go quickly like they did with a vet on hand within seconds than like the one I’ve mentioned where the poor thing had to stand on the yard on 3 legs for an hour waiting for the vet or one that colics overnight & isn't found until morning.
 
glitterbug said:
now that is a bit of asilly comparison because no one puts a horse in a race with the intention of killing it, however the bull is in the ring to be maimed or killed period
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No, not at all. Just like hunting where the intention is killing a fox, bull fighting is viewed as a traditional sport. I think the OP was asking why can't people have views against certain sports just because they are traditional. Part of the thrill of the Grand National is its danger. We are knowingly putting some of the horses to their deaths, even though this is not the goal of the race. This danger could be reduced, but many of you do not want this.
 
mcnaughty said:
Please, if you care that much - do your homework - go and study the thing you hate the most.

There are loads of different types of race - types of jump, length of race, age of horse, sex of horse, handicap weights etc etc. Yes, the GN is run at Aintree - and all the races are over jumps - that is what happens at this time of year - but the jumps differ tremendously from race to race.

The GN is unique in the type of jumps and the length of course. The other "nationals" are nothing in comparison - they just bear part of the same name.
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Yawn. And another...

Poor OP. :rolleyes:
 
Wagtail said:
No, not at all. Just like hunting where the intention is killing a fox, bull fighting is viewed as a traditional sport. I think the OP was asking why can't people have views against certain sports just because they are traditional. Part of the thrill of the Grand National is its danger. We are knowingly putting some of the horses to their deaths, even though this is not the goal of the race. This danger could be reduced, but many of you do not want this.
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That's a good point, Wagtail, many people on here are pro-fox hunting, and a fox is inevitable going to be killed ( or was, I'm so glad it was banned!)

But obviously, being ripped to shreds by dogs is okay. It's tradition, and so it makes it fine!
 
lassiesuca said:
Hmm but is it? I mean, I'm talking about the horses that are used in bullfighting, what are your views on that.

Obviously they're not exactly the same, but there IS a comparison.

Horse enters ring, with a risk of being impaired by the bull, because it's doing something which has risks.
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So is your concern here that the bull will definately be killed, or that the horse may be injured??
 
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Wagtail said:
Caledonia and Amymay. I have a horse here for training right now who after winning numerous races started to fail as a racer. Lovely mare, but when I got her vetted, the vet said 'well I know why she's not a very good racer'. She had grade four heart murmurs audible in all four chambers of the heart. She had arrived with me only 3 days after coming last in her final race and as fit as stunning as you could ever want. That horse was able to cope with her one and a half mile flat races and progressed to hurdles with some success (a couple of places) and she coped with any any amount of training without dropping dead. But do you think she'd have survived the National?
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I would think it highly likely that the trainer's vet thoroughly checked out this mare when she stopped winning, and discovered the heart murmurs, which is why she was passed on to you. Although heart murmurs can be congenital, they can also develop in later life, so she was quite likely fully fit in her earlier successful career.
 
lassiesuca said:
That's a good point, Wagtail, many people on here are pro-fox hunting, and a fox is inevitable going to be killed ( or was, I'm so glad it was banned!)

But obviously, being ripped to shreds by dogs is okay. It's tradition, and so it makes it fine!
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OMG! You silly girl! How the heck can you come on Horse&Hound forum, of all forums, go on about how cruel racing AND fox hunting is and not expect people to have something to say about it?? I'd go on a different forum if I were you! :)
 
sprite1978 said:
I support the GN, and I do so knowing that it is an extremely dangerous spectacle where horses/riders maybe injured and die. I think the way the horses and tarps were so visable can only act as a good reminder of this fact.

However, the very visable loss of these animals will stir up a knee jerk reaction, and unsupported claims of cruelty. The hauds of drunk racegoers who are completely dissmissive and ignorant of the consequences bother me more. It may give them a true appreciation of the effort and athleticism of the horses and riders.

As i have said, I support the grand national - but I do so with my eyes wide open. Long may it continue.
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Very good point
 
Wagtail said:
Yes, I don't think we are going to get anywhere with this one.
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No - because it is totally pointless when the OP cannot make up her mind on what she actually wants to ban, all her facts and figures are incorrect and she knows nothing about the race nor industry that she wants to attack.
 
amymay said:
So is your conern here that the bull will definately be killed, or that the horse may be injured??
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Both.

I hate bullfighting, but I'm using the use of horses in bull fighting as my analogy. My example doesn't MEAN I'm condoning it. I'm just trying to find out where people's views and beliefs lie.


The Luso's and Andalusian's trained for bull-fighting are all very skilled athletes, they move well and they've been trained to their prime. They are well cared for and bull fighting is part of Iberian tradition, although Catalonia has banned it, but it is still prominent around Spain.

They enter the ring on horse back, and begin half passing at canter around the arena, it's very high risk, and so many people on here, I know are, like me, against it.

I'm not suggesting we ignore the bull being killed, but I'm using an analogy which has more relevance. So, please answer my question. Is using horses in bull fighting acceptable? Because of the risk? I mean, is it fair to play a horse in front of a 600 pound bull with horns, being tormented? Is it fair to place a horse on a course which, let's face, is pretty much all over the place?
 
Starbucks said:
OMG! You silly girl! How the heck can you come on Horse&Hound forum, of all forums, go on about how cruel racing AND fox hunting is and not expect people to have something to say about it?? I'd go on a different forum if I were you! :)
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Hehe, just trying to find out where all your beliefs lie.

So, what are your views on bull fighting; Starbucks? :o
 
lassiesuca said:
Both.

I hate bullfighting, but I'm using the use of horses in bull fighting as my analogy. My example doesn't MEAN I'm condoning it. I'm just trying to find out where people's views and beliefs lie.


The Luso's and Andalusian's trained for bull-fighting are all very skilled athletes, they move well and they've been trained to their prime. They are well cared for and bull fighting is part of Iberian tradition, although Catalonia has banned it, but it is still prominent around Spain.

They enter the ring on horse back, and begin half passing at canter around the arena, it's very high risk, and so many people on here, I know are, like me, against it.

I'm not suggesting we ignore the bull being killed, but I'm using an analogy which has more relevance. So, please answer my question. Is using horses in bull fighting acceptable? Because of the risk? I mean, is it fair to play a horse in front of a 600 pound bull with horns, being tormented? Is it fair to place a horse on a course which, let's face, is pretty much all over the place?
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Please stick to the title of your thread or start another thread - if you cannot finish your original arguement there is no point starting another one.
 
Wagtail said:
Yawn. And another...

Poor OP. :rolleyes:
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You really aren't helping the OP at all - in fact, just the opposite. You are stirring things up with that attitude.

Mcnaughty offered CONSTRUCTIVE polite advice, without any hint of rudeness.

OP, as I said earlier, you do need to research more thoroughly before you present a petition, otherwise it is pointless and doomed to fail.

I don't doubt your heart is in the right place though. :)
 
Haven't read all the posts on here, but would just like to make a couple of comments. The GN was the third race over the course during the meeting and to my knowledge no horse was killed in the other races, so the height of the fences is not a problem. One of the other races was the foxhunters race, so the standard of horse and jockey is not to blame, the quality of horses running in the race nowadays are better than before as the more highly rated horses run in it now since the fences were altered and the riders in the foxhunters are amateurs ( really good ones mind you). The other two races were over a shorter distance but the fatalities in the GN were on the first circuit so the distance had not come in to play. As for the winners exhaustion at the end it was hot and the other placed horses were fine, I saw race at Newcastle earlier in the season in heavy ground where the horses were legless at the end of it but no one said a thing about it. Saturday was unfortunate and no one likes to see fatalities but there are no debates about banning hurdles when there are fatalities and when the GN is run with no problems no one bothers. The GN is a victim of its own success as its watched by people who never watch another NH race all year and when anything happens its hijacked by certain groups (much like the hunting debate) and sensationalised by the media. Before anyone asks, no I dont hunt and I've had a horse in training that was killed ( in a fall in the yard on its way to the horse walker). I just think that people should think a bit more about the young lad in a coma after one of the other races rather than just jumping on the bandwagon. Sorry if I've repeated what others have already said!!!
 
lassiesuca said:
Hehe, just trying to find out where all your beliefs lie.

So, what are your views on bull fighting; Starbucks? :o
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I don't really know that much about it TBH, isn't anything I've ever seen or been involved with so I'll withhold judgement. I find it's best not to talk about things I know nothing about. :)
 
Ok this thread is a bit pointless, we have all been round in circles since the race on Saturday (on many different threads) and people are just repeating what's already been said. Why keep going?
Personaly I enjoy the GN and having a wee flutter on the horses. Alot of people seem to confuse race horses with pet horses.
 
OP - Sorry people are being rude to you, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you realy should get your facts straight before starting a petition. I gather from your comment about adults attacking children that you are a more youthfull member - perhaps you might get a kinder response in the common room?

Its realy sad that horses died in the GN, but horses die in many many races, and at RC events, hunts and last year one dropped dead at a local sponsored ride. We had this discussion at work this morning when the sweep stake money was handed out - I would rather a horse died on the hoof, galloping freely being a horse than fading away with failing teeth and limbs ...just my opinon
 
I'm sure the viewers of This Morning will sort it all out and in the future the national will be run with everyone wearing pink with flowers in their hair :) :)
 
Dubs said:
You really aren't helping the OP at all - in fact, just the opposite. You are stirring things up with that attitude.

Mcnaughty offered CONSTRUCTIVE polite advice, without any hint of rudeness.

OP, as I said earlier, you do need to research more thoroughly before you present a petition, otherwise it is pointless and doomed to fail.

I don't doubt your heart is in the right place though. :)
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Apologies to McNaughty, it was not aimed specifically at her (or him). I was referring to the fact that this is about the fifteenth post saying exactly the same thing. The OP had already apologised twice for getting it wrong. I really hate the pack mentality that sometimes arises on fourms such as this. People don't know when to let a point drop and fail to realise when they are straying into bully territory. I'm sure it wasn't intentional.
 
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